IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #25

akh said:

Again I want to point out that there seems to be some speculation that has turned into 'fact' over time.

The idea that JR said LS turned the corner and there's no way he could've seen that so he must be guilty or somehow being disingenuous assumes more than he couldn't have seen her turn the corner somehow. It assumes that is what he actually said. Isn't this just what it's been reported that he said by others? IOW- classic hearsay. And how possible is it that what he said and what that person repeated/reported is slightly different?

And further, unless he's just blatantly adamant that he saw her walk to the corner and turn, then how much of a stretch would it be to say he just misremembered exactly when she left his view leaving the apartment?

Of course I might've lost track myself of who said what... But based on what we've heard this isn't exactly smoking gun territory even if he did say it exactly as been said here.... let alone going by what other people have said he said...

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http://www.lohud.com/article/20110903/NEWS02/109030332

Approached by the same reporter again late Friday night, Rosenbaum stepped from his door.
He was asked again to discuss what happened. Rosenbaum, who was the last person to report seeing her, was asked about prior reporting by The Journal News regarding his final interactions with Spierer. The paper, quoting friends of Rosenbaum, reported previously that Spierer visited him that morning, that he tried to get her to sleep over, but let her leave after she showed she could walk without stumbling. He said he then saw her rounding a corner on her way back to her apartment, the paper reported.
Asked about this account, he replied, “I confirm it.”

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However, we don't know if JR had such great eyesight, and it was still dark. Could he possibly be mistaken that LS turned at the corner of 11th & College, and he "saw" her turn, because he expected to see her turning? Maybe someone else turned the corner. And, you are right that the timing could have been confused.

We can be sure that he confirmed that (1) he spoke to LS that morning at his place, and that (2) she left his place later that morning.

College Avenue has a Waffle House, which is open 24/7. WH are usually located in areas convenient to truckers, on the exits off interstates. This WH is not near an interstate, but may be convenient enough for truckers and other people who are just passing through the area. Unfortunately, for the same reason, the WH parking lots sometimes have a bad reputation as presenting the opportunity for crime.

On College Avenue, lots of trees obscure the sidewalk view, and people can park on both sides of the street. Therefore, students and other people driving by were less likely to have noticed LS if she walked along College towards 10th, and less likely to have noticed if she were in some type of trouble.

If LS walked by such a large student residence as College & tenth, we would expect that at least one person would have noticed her. JMO: if she was walking along College Avenue, she did not make it past the tenth street student residences.

OTOH: Afraid after the altercation at Smallwood, maybe LS had it in mind to go to the residence of some outside friend.

Bo Dietl described the IU student community as severely abusing drugs, and suffering from frequent ODs. How did LS feel about that aspect of college life? Did she confide in a friend that she was actually not in agreement with that lifestyle? Or afraid of that kind of behavior?

One recommendation sometimes made to people who want to quit drugs is to throw away all the "friendships." The literature on recovery tends to blame the friends for encouraging drug involvement and sabotaging efforts at quitting drugs.

If IU is as bad as Bo Dietl says, not impossible that LS at least contemplated "running away."

We can't really conclude anything from the scarce info we have been given, but perhaps abduction and adult run-away need to be more carefully explored.

AnalyticalExaminer said:

Thanks. I also see HT (repeatedly), JW (more than once), and an apparent buddy of DR's there as well. I should add that in the early interview, DR's demeanor suggested to me that he was a well-meaning dude truly concerned about finding LS.

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At least one if not more of the gals who appear in the JR's FB photo are in the video with Lauren as well FWIW.

And, the first photo after the text slide stating "Each day we walk the path of where Lauren was last seen . . ." is the corner of 10th and College but with a view of the Waffle House.

I find the following quote by CS in the dailybeast.com article interesting (albeit sad):

“What’s this person doing?” she continues, seeming to follow every move of the man in her mind’s eye. “Is he going to work? Is he getting his Starbucks? What’s he doing and how is he doing it?”

The questions in the second half of the quote intrigue me the most. They seem to suggest that CS does consider random abduction, as they suggest daily activities that college students might not partake in. OTOH, I suppose CS, like all of us, can't rule random abduction out.

Following that idea, a possible Waffle House scenario seems worth consideration. Although not near a highway, is it easy access to Old 37 (hope I have the name right), which leads out of town? And then to Martinsville, Indy, etc.?

doubtingthomas said:

What is Zodiac? I do think it is time to get more experienced personnel involved.

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I believe Jupiter was referring to the Zodiac killer and that one of the PIs is a retired Lt. Detective who headed up the investigation of that case at some point..

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84817"]TX TX - Kellie "Wednesday" Hall, 29, Beaumont/Austin, 25 April 2009 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

In April 2009, Kellie "Wednesday" Hall was apparently abducted from the parking lot of a Waffle House in Austin TX.

***Please note: This entire post consists of opinion, hear-say, emotion and/or conjecture. If you're interested in 'just the facts', please disregard the following comments.***

Culture & Connections: My youngest attends Tulane, which has a large contingent of students from the NE. A handful in her circle have attended the same summer camp as LS, a few are from her hometown and one indicated they're childhood friends. My D has shared with us that xanax bars and coke are popular party choices within the NE crowds and even she was taken aback by their excessive drug use. During campus parties, she has witnessed many young women (generally 100-115 lbs) being encouraged and/or trying to keep pace with the men (160-200 lbs).

This past summer, the same D worked along side an IU student who told her one week following the disappearance that a POI was a low-level DD and that she and all her friends believed that LS had OD'd and was taken out of town. In late June, I introduced myself to the co-worker as a former IU grad and we chatted about Bloomington and the LS case. When I asked her about the conversations she was having with friends and if any had contacted LE or sent in an anonymous tip, she shook her head no and changed the subject. I suspect there are plenty of concerned parents experiencing the same 'deafening silence' CS mentioned in her public letter. If the young adults last known to be with LS were/are supplying or using drugs, then naturally they're afraid to talk and would have much to hide.

Bo Dielt: I live near a crime-ridden city on the East Coast, so I get his acerbic personality and investigative approach. However, IMO his portrayal of local LE as country bumpkins will likely prevent any collaboration or sharing of OTR details that could help create major movement in finding LS or solving this case.

Cadaver Dogs & Human Decomposition: Recently, I spoke with several LE officers (one K9, who has been with his partner for only 6 months). He explained that it is extremely difficult for dogs to track on asphalt and that he wasn't surprised to hear that the LS dog lost the scent near a gravel lot. The officer said that so many factors determine whether a dog can pick up a scent days, weeks, months later (fluids, DNA, moisture levels, surface materials, &#8230, for example, should someone pass away on pavement outdoors and be moved within moments (assuming no fluids, no hair/clothing fibers&#8230 it would be unlikely the dog would detect anything.

More LE insight: I've been told by LE officers that "the last known person with the victim is responsible for their disappearance more than 50% of the time." Sounds like common sense right? I also understand that timing is everything and this could just as easily be a crime of opportunity, which would mean the young men wouldn't have any information about LS' whereabouts. Even so, this group of young adults (so-called 'friends') appears to be immature, selfish and insensitive as they continue to party and make concert plans on fb as if nothing in their world has changed. Are any of them in therapy? Do they feel the slightest bit guilty or responsible for contributing to LS' lack of judgement or disappearance?

Lastly, I believe several of you have touched on the possibility of LE offering deals to get POI to share all they know. I wonder if LE have approached the attorneys about reducing charges related to supplying drugs or drug use by the individuals in exchange for useful information? Would it be possible for CS & RS to sign something that would waive their ability to sue the POI in civil court? If LS has passed on, then IMO monetary damages are pointless.

Without question, everyone including LE wants to find Lauren and allow her family to return home and start the healing process. The quickest way is to get JR, MB, CR, DR, HT and others talking … for hours and hours until the puzzle pieces start to fit.

AnalyticalExaminer said:

Thanks. I also see HT (repeatedly), JW (more than once), and an apparent buddy of DR's there as well. I should add that in the early interview, DR's demeanor suggested to me that he was a well-meaning dude truly concerned about finding LS.

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I have to wonder if the use of some of those pics is to apply more pressure... it was seeing all the pics of HT that really made that hit home for me...

Thanks AE, I think that much is reasonable. I was just getting thrown off by some early comments and wondering if I had missed something.

Pedrosmom said:

Is this case really going cold or is it being poorly served by an inept law enforcement unit that failed to use the resources (DEA, FBI, ATF) available to them when the evidence was fresh and now they find themselves in a hell of a quagmire. Unless the reach out and admit NOW, this is too big for them to handle, this case will go cold. None of the POIs should have been able to leave that town on June 3 and after without clearance by FBI/DEA and I mean a thorough search of apartments and cars - not to forget the MPOI Tweeting his mouth off as if to say "here I am, come get me."

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I mean, with all due respect, is there more to the story than the tweet that we know of that said "Runcible spoon getting my corned beef #"? Or does that constitute tweeting one's mouth off and translate to "here I am, come get me?" ... :waitasec: How do you think LE could or should have kept the POI from leaving town?

imkeylime said:

I find the following quote by CS in the dailybeast.com article interesting (albeit sad):

“What’s this person doing?” she continues, seeming to follow every move of the man in her mind’s eye. “Is he going to work? Is he getting his Starbucks? What’s he doing and how is he doing it?”

The questions in the second half of the quote intrigue me the most. They seem to suggest that CS does consider random abduction, as they suggest daily activities that college students might not partake in. OTOH, I suppose CS, like all of us, can't rule random abduction out.

Following that idea, a possible Waffle House scenario seems worth consideration. Although not near a highway, is it easy access to Old 37 (hope I have the name right), which leads out of town? And then to Martinsville, Indy, etc.?

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Interesting and insightful.

CS does a lot of thinking out loud. I am almost in overload mode with all the info of late. I don't know how she stays sane. At the concert the other night she asked the crowd their motivation for being there. Free food? Course assignment?, etc. It was taken out of context by some, and I don't know the context because I was gone by then, but she's definitely a Seeker.

Yes, the WH has easy access to Old 37 North. However, if this is a WH perp and not a POI, all bets are off as to destination.

goodgirl65 said:

I believe Jupiter was referring to the Zodiac killer and that one of the PIs is a retired Lt. Detective who headed up the investigation of that case at some point..

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I searched after Bo(zo) said that and the Zodiac case is all I came up with. But the killer was never found. Maybe they're thinking this is serial Waffle House case.

I don't see the Bloomington WH as a venue ripe for stranger abduction... too many cops around much of the time... and maybe I'm just not willing to entertain the whole crime of opportunity theory -- but I think that CS might have been saying that whoever took her somewhere that night was an abductor -- even if they were a friend.

I saw all the offense taken by commenters in the Herald Times regarding CS motivation question -- and really felt like they were being a little overly sensitive. I agree that CS often speaks in a sort of stream of consciousness monologue. I like it because it makes it easy to connect with her. I saw her motivation comments as more of a way to inject a little humor into the evening -- and acknowledging that perhaps many of the people there weren't (or hadn't been) terribly involved in the searches for LS -- and that they were still welcome.

bloom54 said:

I don't see the Bloomington WH as a venue ripe for stranger abduction... too many cops around much of the time... and maybe I'm just not willing to entertain the whole crime of opportunity theory -- but I think that CS might have been saying that whoever took her somewhere that night was an abductor -- even if they were a friend.

I saw all the offense taken by commenters in the Herald Times regarding CS motivation question -- and really felt like they were being a little overly sensitive. I agree that CS often speaks in a sort of stream of consciousness monologue. I like it because it makes it easy to connect with her. I saw her motivation comments as more of a way to inject a little humor into the evening -- and acknowledging that perhaps many of the people there weren't (or hadn't been) terribly involved in the searches for LS -- and that they were still welcome.

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That's good to know on both points. Thank you!

(And now I'm reminded of ChickJustin's car video at the WH.)

IUGrad84 said:

***Please note: This entire post consists of opinion, hear-say, emotion and/or conjecture. If you're interested in 'just the facts', please disregard the following comments.***

Culture & Connections: My youngest attends Tulane, which has a large contingent of students from the NE. A handful in her circle have attended the same summer camp as LS, a few are from her hometown and one indicated they're childhood friends. My D has shared with us that xanax bars and coke are popular party choices within the NE crowds and even she was taken aback by their excessive drug use. During campus parties, she has witnessed many young women (generally 100-115 lbs) being encouraged and/or trying to keep pace with the men (160-200 lbs).

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Sadly summer camp may not be a good idea for teenagers. Sometimes drug abusers develop an interest in backpacking etc. just so that they can be off LE radar. Too many opportunities in the outdoors to try out the stuff; too many places to hide; the counselors tend to be too young and too "cool." But this situation is very unfortunate, because normal sports and outdoor activity can be so enriching.

Maybe 17-18yo is just too young to be away from home. At that age, maybe people are biologically set up to get along socially rather than rocking the boat, and risking ostracization by rejecting drug abuse. If they aren't strongly enthusiatic about academics, maybe they get too bored, and they need social acceptance much more than they would normally.

bloom54 said:

I don't see the Bloomington WH as a venue ripe for stranger abduction... too many cops around much of the time...

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Would there be a police presence at around 4:30 am?

Jupiter812 said:

I searched after Bo said that and the Zodiac case is all I came up with. But the killer was never found. Maybe they're thinking this is serial Waffle House case.

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I believe he is referring to the NY Zodiac case which was solved, and was much more recent. There was a lead detective on it with a vaguely similar name, it may be pronounced Cheravolo if my Italian is correct.

Detective Sgt. Michael Ciravolo, who headed a detail that investigated crimes against the elderly, read the note and grabbed his coat. Eventually, Ciravolo, now retired, would head the Zodiac task force, commanding 49 detectives in the largest manhunt since Son of Sam.

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http://articles.nydailynews.com/1996-06-20/news/17998895_1_heriberto-seda-zodiac-task-force


Duh! edited to add from the same article I obviously didn't read all of:

He and Kelly work for Bo Dietel Associates. Ciravolo is president.

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well... I'm NEVER there at 4:30am (I always leave by 3!! :floorlaugh: ), but I understand that it's kind of a "hangout" place for BPD at night...

Walker said:

Sadly summer camp may not be a good idea for teenagers. Sometimes drug abusers develop an interest in backpacking etc. just so that they can be off LE radar. Too many opportunities in the outdoors to try out the stuff; too many places to hide; the counselors tend to be too young and too "cool." But this situation is very unfortunate, because normal sports and outdoor activity can be so enriching.

Maybe 17-18yo is just too young to be away from home. At that age, maybe people are biologically set up to get along socially rather than rocking the boat, and risking ostracization by rejecting drug abuse. If they aren't strongly enthusiatic about academics, maybe they get too bored, and they need social acceptance much more than they would normally.

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I'm sorry but I have to STRONGLY disagree with you about your summer camp claim. I have attended and worked at a summer camp (for 13 years, over half my life!) very similar to LS and know many people who have attended her camp. These camps provide kids with incredible role models, a support system and a lifelong family. Camps have a zero tolerance policy about drug use and drinking, I have seen friends and former counselors fired from my camp for such things. These camps can attract families with money since it is so expensive to send a child away to camp for a month or two, so it is possible that these kids when they grow up into young adults have the resources to drink and do expensive drugs (cocaine, etc). Summer camps, backpacking and such do not cause or contribute to drug and alcohol abuse.

Also, 17-18 is when these teenagers are being trained to be counselors and leaders in the camp, generally rising seniors in high school are counselors in training, sometimes junior counselors. They are given responsibilities and the camp directors and supervisory staff have very high expectations of them. I was the assistant director of the counselor training program at my summer camp in 2010 and they couldn't have been more eager and excited to become counselors and leaders in their camp community. I think without programs like overnight camps, sports camps, teams etc, people are more likely to go down a dark path in their young adult years..

Sorry to rant, but I have to defend the camping system. It made me who I am.

Walker said:

Sadly summer camp may not be a good idea for teenagers. Sometimes drug abusers develop an interest in backpacking etc. just so that they can be off LE radar. Too many opportunities in the outdoors to try out the stuff; too many places to hide; the counselors tend to be too young and too "cool." But this situation is very unfortunate, because normal sports and outdoor activity can be so enriching.

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I will tell you that this is not at all my experience. Drugs are just not part of the culture of summer camp, and and even if there were opportunity (in my experience, there's not), there is very little time, opportunity or places to hide, as you suggest... you are busy all the time. Everyone I know who went to/ worked at summer camps consider it to be a major part of their lives, and a positive experience. My experience obviously isn't universal, but having attended and worked at the same kind of summer camp that Lauren did for most of my life, I have to disagree with your assessment.

Edited to add: ha, Alliecog beat me to it.

I'm glad to hear Abby and Allie both responding to the summer camp claim! I was hesitant to do that because it's been about 35(!) years since I worked at a summer camp in NH and I thought that perhaps things had changed. But even back then, counselor background checks were pretty stringent - and the programs were tightly controlled.

This is very different from simply going out on a backpacking trip. The days and evenings are busy and there's a culture of health, responsibility, leadership that really helps kids to grow!

Somewhat OT but my camp's slogan is "where friends become family" and I couldn't imagine my life without my camp friends. To offset the cost after my first summer, my mom worked at our camp as a nurse for 8 SUMMERS. It truly became a family affair, and my camp friends have become my family and will always be like that.