Possible Victim: Valerie Mack, 24, Manorville Jane Doe #6, missing 2000, found Nov 2000 & Gilgo Beach Apr 2011

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Very interesting.... a lot of burlap and a lot of guys talking about things that could fit into this case - or could be a load of crap. Definitely worth investigating and worth keeping an eye on.
 
Great post Inspctrgadget! Does anyone remember the discussion about pigeon racing? I just tried to find the links, but no luck. Burlap is supposed to be used to line cages and hold/transport the birds. GC was supposedly into this sport and has cages in his yard. This is all from a not so good memory. ; ) I'll try again to find the past discussion. The hunting angle sounds more likely, though.

Found one link:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6462101&highlight=Burlap+pigeons#post6462101
 
I think the comments over at the duck hunting sight by two of the duck hunters - one that makes tools and one that is a complete slacker are creepy. I think other comments they have made on the web are creepy. I also think the emblam that 'tool man' uses is odd because it looks like an LE emblem. I am sure it has something to do with duck hunting, but I find it odd. :twocents: Good job Inspectorgadget on posting over there, and getting the response you did. Very interesting.

http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=180447&p=1542325#p1542325
 
Reannan said:
I think the comments over at the duck hunting sight by two of the duck hunters - one that makes tools and one that is a complete slacker are creepy. I think other comments they have made on the web are creepy. I also think the emblam that 'tool man' uses is odd because it looks like an LE emblem. I am sure it has something to do with duck hunting, but I find it odd. :twocents: Good job Inspectorgadget on posting over there, and getting the response you did. Very interesting.

http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=180447&p=1542325#p1542325
Click to expand...

I agree Reannan. There are quite a few more comments over there than when I looked earlier and they are creepy. And mean.
 
Hmmm...the Capt. of the Main Squeeze is retired LE? Odd coincidence. Of course, in this case, every coincidence seems odd. Probably means nothing.

(I may need a breather from this case.)
 
Reannan said:
I think the comments over at the duck hunting sight by two of the duck hunters - one that makes tools and one that is a complete slacker are creepy. I think other comments they have made on the web are creepy. I also think the emblam that 'tool man' uses is odd because it looks like an LE emblem. I am sure it has something to do with duck hunting, but I find it odd. :twocents: Good job Inspectorgadget on posting over there, and getting the response you did. Very interesting.

http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=180447&p=1542325#p1542325
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if they are creepy as much as they are the product of a bunch of macho power tools showing off for each other.
 
It looks like those barriers that I pointed out in the satellite images may not have been there in 2000. Someone made a comment here that leads me believe this may be the case.

It seems like they put these barriers up to prevent ATVs from shredding the place. So Jane Doe #6's killer may not have had any impediment to driving a car back on those power lines in 2000, but he may have had that problem in 2003 since Jessica Taylor was found on the side of the road. If this was the case, this would tell me that he was familiar with the area, enough so that he was able to re-locate the exact area, but he wasn't from there, otherwise he would have known about the barriers and selected another area for better concealment.

A poster over at the duck hunting chat website said that the American Kennel Club (AKC) holds retriever hunting tests in Otis Pike Preserve. Jane Doe #6 and Jessica Taylor were both found in the Southeast corner of the Otis Pike Preserve.

Note that the serial killer used the term "half breed" when he was talking to Amanda Barthelemy.

The AKC is all about "breeds" of dogs. Specifically, making sure that particular "breeds" are pure and well documented. A "half breed" would more appropriately be referred to as a "mixed breed".

Check out the AKC's website:
http://www.akc.org/events/hunting_tests/retrievers/index.cfm
http://www.akc.org/breeds/index.cfm?nav_area=breeds
 
Check this out...

At first, I thought this was related to the decapitated chickens found in Manorville.

It's not.

Note that decapitated birds were found on Ocean Parkway!

http://www.longislandpress.com/2011/12/08/red-herrings-among-tips-in-serial-killer-case/
"More bizarre was the April 26 discovery of a plastic bag full of decapitated birds found in the area.

Roy Gross, chief of the Suffolk County Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, has been investigating a string of attacks on wildlife over the summer, but says Suffolk police never called his agency on that one. He says it’s unclear if the cases are related to one another and doubts any are linked to the serial killer probe, but notes there is a parallel."

Maybe some might disagree, but I believe that Santeria is extremely uncommon on the south shore. It seems like a likely explanation for decapitated chickens found in Manorville, but to find decapitated birds along Ocean Parkway along with 10 human bodies? Also, I would think that the sacrificed animal is usually consumed during the ritual (unless the ritual is for death rites). I wonder what type of birds they were and what condition they were found in.
 
inspctrgadget said:
Check this out...

At first, I thought this was related to the decapitated chickens found in Manorville.

It's not.

Note that decapitated birds were found on Ocean Parkway!

http://www.longislandpress.com/2011/12/08/red-herrings-among-tips-in-serial-killer-case/
"More bizarre was the April 26 discovery of a plastic bag full of decapitated birds found in the area.

Roy Gross, chief of the Suffolk County Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, has been investigating a string of attacks on wildlife over the summer, but says Suffolk police never called his agency on that one. He says it’s unclear if the cases are related to one another and doubts any are linked to the serial killer probe, but notes there is a parallel."

Maybe some might disagree, but I believe that Santeria is extremely uncommon on the south shore. It seems like a likely explanation for decapitated chickens found in Manorville, but to find decapitated birds along Ocean Parkway along with 10 human bodies? Also, I would think that the sacrificed animal is usually consumed during the ritual (unless the ritual is for death rites). I wonder what type of birds they were and what condition they were found in.
Click to expand...

I think we need to ask poster TKM where he was on April 26th 2011...lol
I have been thinking that the LISK is something of a ornithologist, perhaps the bag of birds exercise was a less criminal way for him to get off, have fun with the investigators, and also test the parkway out for middle of the night dumping. A litmus test for surveillance if you will.

Maybe some might disagree, but I believe that Santeria is extremely uncommon on the south shore.
Click to expand...
I agree, obeah workers, santeria, and voodoo are all far more prevalent on the North shore of Long Island than on the south.
 
TruthSpider,

You mentioned in the GQ article that the NYSDEC was active in the Gilgo/Cedar Beach area. You also said that burlap was used for sandbags in erosion control projects.

Was burlap used in the "snow fence" or "sand fence"? Was it used in other aspects of this "erosion control project"?

The reason I ask is that I'm thinking there may be a relationship between Manorville and Gilgo/Cedar. In 2000, there was alot of attention and research into the brown tides in the Peconic, and the DEC was pretty involved. There were many others involved, like USACE or the SUNY Stony Brook "NY Sea Grant" researchers, who also may have been involved later in the Gilgo/Cedar erosion control monitoring and prevention projects.

So, who specifically was responsible for the implementation of the erosion control project? Was burlap used extensively in anything other than sandbags (i.e., sand fence)?

If we can tie a specific JOB, RESEARCH PROGRAM, INSTITUTION, STATE/FEDERAL/TOWN/COUNTY AGENCY, or any other entity that was active in developing both the Peconic Estuary Management Plan (PEMP) or Brown Tide Research Initiative (BTRI) prior to 2000 AND the implementation of a burlap sand fence (or other erosion control project involving massive amounts of burlap), we may be onto something.

As far as the "snow fence" I found this:
The Town, through the Department of Environmental Control placed snow fence in strategic locations to capture windblown sand and create a dune. Behind the snow fence, rows of Xmas trees are carefully placed so as not to disturb existing vegetation. The combination of fence and trees quickly allows the sand to accumulate. Once the fence is covered, a new line of fence is installed at the base of this newly formed Dune. The process is repeated over and over. Once the north and south sides of the dune are formed, vegetation is planted to hold the sand in place. This is often done by volunteers including children.
..........

The Town of Babylon Dune Management Program is already a great success in that State DOT didn’t have to plow the sand and sweep the Parkway this year as they had to do just two years ago. In addition, the Town saved a great deal of money reusing Xmas trees instead of chipping them.


Do they wrap the Xmas trees in burlap to prevent the pine needles from coming off?

Maybe a college student, county maintenance worker, state DOT, maybe a marine biologist, a surveyor?

Who would have access to burlap in 2007 and also have been involved with the Peconic Estuary prior to 2000?
 
I've stared at any connection to erosion control and have found nothing that suggests burlap was ever used in any of the USACE / DEC erosion control projects in the last decade. So that connection to Manorville is out.

I think the duck hunting angle is a no-brainer. Someone on the duck hunter board suggested contacting someone at the SSWA.

What kind of questions would we ask?
 
inspctrgadget said:
I've stared at any connection to erosion control and have found nothing that suggests burlap was ever used in any of the USACE / DEC erosion control projects in the last decade. So that connection to Manorville is out.

I think the fowl hunting angle is a no-brainer. Someone on the duck hunter board suggested contacting someone at the SSWA.

What kind of questions would we ask?
Click to expand...


Specific to fowl/bird hunting? Or in general?

If you're asking for questions specific to fowl/bird hunting, the only one I can think of is what breed of dog is most popular amongst the hunters in that area. I imagine it would be some type of retriever or pointer but what specific breed of retriever or pointer? Maybe the perp has the same breed of dog? Or, maybe the hunters have seen a person walking around with a dog that does not seem appropriate for the type of hunting they do?


"Note that the serial killer used the term "half breed" when he was talking to Amanda Barthelemy.

The AKC is all about "breeds" of dogs. Specifically, making sure that particular "breeds" are pure and well documented. A "half breed" would more appropriately be referred to as a "mixed breed"."


BTW, when I first heard the "mixed breed" comment in the MSM relating to Melissa Barthelemy, I immediately thought AKC. At the time I thought I might be reaching so I never brought it up. Just be careful, as a person of color, I have experienced and witnessed the use of the term "mixed breed" by people with zero interest in pure breed dogs.
 
By now we have discovered so many sources of burlap, I don't think it is as relevant as we first thought it was.
 
Redbird said:
By now we have discovered so many sources of burlap, I don't think it is as relevant as we first thought it was.
Click to expand...

I disagree. The burlap connection and the phone call to Amanda Barthelemy are really the only actual evidence that we can directly tie to the serial killer. The fact that duck hunters meet annually at SSWA Cedar Beach duck boat festival, where the GB4 were found, combined with the fact that Jane Doe 2000 and Jessica Taylor were found by bird hunters in a waterfowl hunting area of Manorville is too glaring to simply ignore.

Sure there are other uses for burlap, like fishing, oystering, landscaping and farming (and Oak Beach bean bag races), but none of these have as strong of a connection to the exact area where the GB4 were found - between Gilgo and Cedar Beach.

We all know that serial killers like to return to their dumping grounds, and they prefer to dump in places that they're comfortable. The area of Manorville and the area of Cedar Beach share the duck hunting connection.
 
Just FYI, I submitted this as a tip to the Suffolk County police today:

The South Shore Waterfowlers Association (sswa.org) holds their annual Duckboat Festival at Cedar Beach. In 2000, it was held at Gilgo Beach.

The common denominator between burlap, Gilgo Beach and the specific area of Manorville (north of LIE and west of Halsey Manor) is waterfowl hunting.

If the Long Island Serial Killer is indeed a duck hunter, you should cross-reference names from the SSWA's membership list from 1995-2003 and see if any match the Ridge Hunter Check Station logs for Manorville, specifically Parking Spot 51W (waterfowl spot) on Mill Road. Mill Road in Manorville runs right past where Jane Doe #6 and Jessica Taylor were found.

Ridge Hunter Check Station
484 Randall Road
Ridge, NY 11961
631-924-3156

Here's the contacts for the SSWA:
President, John Adams 631-618-5728,
1st Vice President, Ron Sineo 631-862-8518
2nd Vice President, Rich Franks Jr. 631-603-6295
Secretary, George Duguid 631-667-5886
Treasurer Erik Tallbe 516-799-6613
Sargeant-at-Arms Curt Matzinger 631-661-0379



Duck hunters use burlap extensively, for building boat blinds or "layout blinds" and for carrying decoys and dead ducks.

Wrapping the victims in burlap may be symbolic, kind of like "bagging a kill."

Its also common for serial killers to revisit the dumping grounds to relive the crime, and someone who attends the annual Duckboat Festival and hunts in the Otis Pike Preserve would have the knowledge of the area and be able to revisit the dumping grounds every year without drawing suspicion.

You may want to interview the SSWA members and find out if anyone in that community uses burlap as part of their duck blinds or to carry dead ducks. Any members with a connection to NYC? Any known to refer to prostitutes as "*advertiser censored*"? Any known to frequent prostitutes? Any known felons?

Also, the serial killer referred to Amanda Barthelemy as a "half-breed". The American Kennel Club conducts retriever hunt tests in the Otis Pike Preserve (Jane Doe#6 and Jessica Taylor were found in the southeast corner of the preserve). The SSWA also holds "dog jumping" competitions at Cedar Beach during the festival. Its possible that the use of the word "half-breed" was part of the killer's vernacular because he was a hunting dog breeder, trainer or owner.
 
I posted this on the psych thread, but wanted to add it here due to its relevance to Jane Doe 2000 and duck hunting.

OK, I just had a thought. What if the dismemberment wasn't to obfuscate the identify, but was really part of his ritual? Check this out:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2077537_butcher-duck.html
#6: Cut off the head and legs.

In other words, the ritual between Manorville and the GB4 is the same. It's just a slight modification. It's better for him to experience his "success" in the field (i.e., "in the bag") than to experience/relive the post-hunt feeling that he gets while butchering his prey.


I'll add this too: He desecrated the tattoo of wings with the words "Remy's Angel" on Jessica Taylor's torso. It could have been him "plucking" the feather from his kill (#4 on the list of how to butcher a duck).

OK, this is all kind of sick to think about. I'm going to go enjoy my Friday night now.
 
Reannan said:
I think the comments over at the duck hunting sight by two of the duck hunters - one that makes tools and one that is a complete slacker are creepy. I think other comments they have made on the web are creepy. I also think the emblam that 'tool man' uses is odd because it looks like an LE emblem. I am sure it has something to do with duck hunting, but I find it odd. :twocents: Good job Inspectorgadget on posting over there, and getting the response you did. Very interesting.

http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=180447&p=1542325#p1542325
Click to expand...

I don't normally quote myself, but this post had the link to Inspectorgadget's thread over at the duck hunting site. It is no longer a valid link because "The requested topic does not exist". They iced it. I still have the entire conversation saved, however.
 
inspctrgadget said:
I posted this on the psych thread, but wanted to add it here due to its relevance to Jane Doe 2000 and duck hunting.

OK, I just had a thought. What if the dismemberment wasn't to obfuscate the identify, but was really part of his ritual? Check this out:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2077537_butcher-duck.html
#6: Cut off the head and legs.

In other words, the ritual between Manorville and the GB4 is the same. It's just a slight modification. It's better for him to experience his "success" in the field (i.e., "in the bag") than to experience/relive the post-hunt feeling that he gets while butchering his prey.


I'll add this too: He desecrated the tattoo of wings with the words "Remy's Angel" on Jessica Taylor's torso. It could have been him "plucking" the feather from his kill (#4 on the list of how to butcher a duck).

OK, this is all kind of sick to think about. I'm going to go enjoy my Friday night now.
Click to expand...

:rocker: you are great at writing this stuff...seriously.
 
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