The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

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In reality what Defense could Derstine have put on? Who other than the Grandmother could he find to put on the stand and say what? I think Derstine did all he could do. Get his points in when TLM was on the stand and in the Closing yet to come. He has planted doubt and we see evidence of that here on this very board. He did his job considering what he had to work with. MOO
 
Never mind I read it's delayed AGAIN....Defense Monday, Crown Tuesday, Judge instructs Wednesday.....Verdict Watch. Seems Derstine has more legal issues without the jury there than he has arguments when they are there.
 
crazyladi said:
When Tori was taken I was one of those people that thought TM was so suspicious and I ate my words for that. I voiced my opinion often on how she was behaving and got scolded many times for bringing the victims family into my posts. I never stopped believing that TM knows more than what she is saying however she is not on trial and if there was something more about that it would have been brought up when Derstine cross examined her.

Not sure why all of the sudden she is being brought into this when its clear that MTR and TLM were the ones that kidnapped, raped and murdered her daughter.

Just because people think MTR didnt rape her and is an innocent dupe in all of this it doesnt mean they should go with another theory of TM and the skeletons in her closet.

She is not on trial and if she does know more than what she is saying she will have to live with that guilt the rest of her life in which I am sure she already is because he child is gone and never coming back.

MTR is guilty of this crime not TM. JMO
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IMO It's because people need someone to blame and being the fact that she was her mother and she was a drug addict which in turn exposed herself and by proxy her children to very shady people, that maybe people feel if she had lived a more proper life this wouldn't have happened. IMO I say, it's partially true but not the reason this happened. It is an aweful crime, painful and an awful burden to bare for her and Rodney.
 
giantalkinghead said:
Somehow it seems to me he ( Derstine ) is setting up the stage for an Appeal - if his client is found guilty... or for a re-trial in the case of a hung jury. MOO
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This is why, to me, the evidence was bittersweet and I stated I was "angry". Nice because he had nothing, bitter because it may keep this open for years for technical reasons.
 
crazyladi said:
When Tori was taken I was one of those people that thought TM was so suspicious and I ate my words for that. I voiced my opinion often on how she was behaving and got scolded many times for bringing the victims family into my posts. I never stopped believing that TM knows more than what she is saying however she is not on trial and if there was something more about that it would have been brought up when Derstine cross examined her.

Not sure why all of the sudden she is being brought into this when its clear that MTR and TLM were the ones that kidnapped, raped and murdered her daughter.

Just because people think MTR didnt rape her and is an innocent dupe in all of this it doesnt mean they should go with another theory of TM and the skeletons in her closet.

She is not on trial and if she does know more than what she is saying she will have to live with that guilt the rest of her life in which I am sure she already is because he child is gone and never coming back.

MTR is guilty of this crime not TM. JMO
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MR defense that TLM was the "engine that drove the events" ... TLM relationship with TM and JG goes directly to the motive of this horrific crime. If TLM did this for some sort of vindictiveness then it goes against her testimony that the motive was rape.

TLM police statement painted a picture that MR had control over her, so she kidnap a child so he could brutally rape her, while she stood watch.

Derstine painted a picture of a violent liar who knew Tori well enough to lead her away without a worry about a parent interfering and without the need for conversation on April 8, 2009.
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I'm not concerned about the Jurors. We dont have koolaid up here LOL Waiting to hear exactly what the Judges Instructions are.
 
jenniferleia said:
Based on what I see on this forum, I am very worried of a hung jury :( :( :(
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When I read the tweets and then a MSM article here and an MSM article there.......I get the feeling we are missing a lot of testimony and emotion from the courtroom.

Reading that article I posted earlier about Derstine's cross examination, it appeared it was a lot more animated and confrontational than I had thought.

I do however feel a hung jury is a possibility. The Crown evidence isn't overwhelming in my opinion. It is subtle and inferences have to be made to tie it together...........but the defense can take the same evidence and make it fit their story..............so I think it will come down to the "credibility" of TLM in the end, which is pretty much what the Crown said at the beginning.

JMO............
 
Tahorn said:
MR defense that TLM was the "engine that drove the events" ... TLM relationship with TM and JG goes directly to the motive of this horrific crime. If TLM did this for some sort of vindictiveness then it goes against her testimony that the motive was rape.

TLM police statement painted a picture that MR had control over her, so she kidnap a child so he could brutally rape her, while she stood watch.
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I am not saying I dont agree that something is weird about the whole connection of all the people. I am saying at a time when I was mentioning the connection I got told not to discuss the people that were not involved as they were innocent victims.

So I shut up about it and now its brought up again by ones that told me I wasnt right to talk about them as part of a crime.

I dont know exactly what transpired between these people but I have always felt something is just not sitting right with TM, JG, MTR and TLM..

I am not blaming one more than the other as one right now is serving a life time sentence, nor am I saying that TM was directly involved.

I have always said something just doesnt add up.

Something happened that day and only the people involved know as well as poor Tori.

I feel that without a doubt MTR is guilty of all three charges and I expect to hear more come out after all of this is over.

This is all just MY OPINION, not blaming anyone or finger pointing just so that people know.
 
For as much as there is a much discussed CSI Effect (which i do believe) I do think there is a Perry Mason Effect. People seem to expect a Aha moment or all the evidence to tell us exactly what happened and when. Most cases are circumstantial. In this case we actually do have an eye witness who happened to be complicit. The Defense was short but where else could they go with it. I don't think this case is any different in terms of how it was presented than hundreds of cases tried we just don't hear about.
 
Ardy said:
When I read the tweets and then a MSM article here and an MSM article there.......I get the feeling we are missing a lot of testimony and emotion from the courtroom.

Reading that article I posted earlier about Derstine's cross examination, it appeared it was a lot more animated and confrontational than I had thought.

I do however feel a hung jury is a possibility. The Crown evidence isn't overwhelming in my opinion. It is subtle and inferences have to be made to tie it together...........but the defense can take the same evidence and make it fit their story..............so I think it will come down to the "credibility" of TLM in the end, which is pretty much what the Crown said at the beginning.

JMO............
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Agree. I do think Derstine put on a great Defense when he cross examined TLM.
 
otto said:
One would almost think that Victoria was the first child to ever be abducted without putting up a huge fight! This child was lured away, like thousands of other children. The fact that she was lured without putting up a fight does not mean that she knew the abductors, it means that she, a child, was tricked by an evil person into accompanying her. The victims of Bernardo and Homolka were lured as well. They were tricked, did not make a scene on the street prior to being lured and they did not know their abductors.

It is absurd to say that because Victoria walked with her abductor, she knew the woman.
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I don't think it's absurd when, in addition to that fact, Tori's mother and step-father were acquainted with her abductor. That "coincidence" puts it in a different category. It's a theory and speculation, like many others expressed here.

JMO
 
Ardy said:
When I read the tweets and then a MSM article here and an MSM article there.......I get the feeling we are missing a lot of testimony and emotion from the courtroom.

Reading that article I posted earlier about Derstine's cross examination, it appeared it was a lot more animated and confrontational than I had thought.

I do however feel a hung jury is a possibility. The Crown evidence isn't overwhelming in my opinion. It is subtle and inferences have to be made to tie it together...........but the defense can take the same evidence and make it fit their story..............so I think it will come down to the "credibility" of TLM in the end, which is pretty much what the Crown said at the beginning.

JMO............
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IMO It comes down to the judges instructions about what the law is, what reasonable doubt really means, just like in other cases where the jury does not fully understand how to process evidence properly based on the law that criminals have been let off of crimes they actually committed. This one IMO is real simple. He was there, he participated in cleaning up, he's going away, no question.
 
Bravo said:
For as much as there is a much discussed CSI Effect (which i do believe) I do think there is a Perry Mason Effect. People seem to expect a Aha moment or all the evidence to tell us exactly what happened and when. Most cases are circumstantial. In this case we actually do have an eye witness who happened to be complicit. The Defense was short but where else could they go with it. I don't think this case is any different in terms of how it was presented than hundreds of cases tried we just don't hear about.
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I was surprised the defense was so short as well, but also am cognizant of the fact that the Crown had hundreds of LE investigators at their disposal, and the defense would have been fortunate to have 1. I also wonder if people, whom we don't even know about, but who may know something would volunteer the information if it meant they would have to admit to illegal activities.

I realize that we are talking about the murder of a sweet little girl here, but some people involved in the drug trade don't care much about their own kids..........let alone exposing themselves for someone else.

When the light is turned on............the roaches scramble for cover.........

JMO.........
 
I just don't buy that Tori knew her abductor. TM has stated such as well as TLM. What would either have to lose by admitting it if they did. Both have already been vilified. TM came clean about her addiction and TLM admits to her part in the Crime. Tori likely didn't view TLM as a stranger that was danger. She was young and female. Tori may have been flattered at the attention a teen girl gave her.
 
Ardy said:
I was surprised the defense was so short as well, but also am cognizant of the fact that the Crown had hundreds of LE investigators at their disposal, and the defense would have been fortunate to have 1. I also wonder if people, whom we don't even know about, but who may know something would volunteer the information if it meant they would have to admit to illegal activities.

I realize that we are talking about the murder of a sweet little girl here, but some people involved in the drug trade don't care much about their own kids..........let alone exposing themselves for someone else.

When the light is turned on............the roaches scramble for cover.........

JMO.........
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Perhaps but nefarious witness or not what could they possibly add to the case to help MTR?
 
antiquegirl said:
I don't think it's absurd when, in addition to that fact, Tori's mother and step-father were acquainted with her abductor. That "coincidence" puts it in a different category. It's a theory and speculation, like many others expressed here.

JMO
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Just like other coincidences in this case such as MTR dating Amanda (which she had a child that was friends with Tori) 5 days before the abduction coincidence?, The car seat that was put out in the trash coincidence?, Male semen mixed with Tori's blood found in MTR's car coincidence?, ETC... ETC..

There are way too many coincidences in this case in all different directions, so no matter where they are coming from MTR is wrapped up in all of it. JMO
 
Bravo said:
Perhaps but nefarious witness or not what could they possibly add to the case to help MTR?
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I would think it would pretty much be confined to any reason TLM would have picked VS as her target.............or possibly comments that were said by her after the day of the crime.

Drug acquaintances, fellow inmates, we wouldn't know until they testified.

JMO...........
 
Ardy said:
I would think it would pretty much be confined to any reason TLM would have picked VS as her target.............or possibly comments that were said by her after the day of the crime.

Drug acquaintances, fellow inmates, we wouldn't know until they testified.

JMO...........
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Maybe it was investigated but there just wasn't anything there.
 
Bravo said:
I just don't buy that Tori knew her abductor. TM has stated such as well as TLM. What would either have to lose by admitting it if they did. Both have already been vilified. TM came clean about her addiction and TLM admits to her part in the Crime. Tori likely didn't view TLM as a stranger that was danger. She was young and female. Tori may have been flattered at the attention a teen girl gave her.
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I respect your opinion.

I take the other view.

Given where they all lived, walked around, parents having contact on many occasions, I would find it more difficult to believe TLM didn't either know VS or knew of her from someone.

If the last defense witness is correct, and I have no reason to question her credibility, and TLM went into the school.............she was looking for VS.

That raises the question in the article I posted in a previous post..................

How was TLM so bold to take a child and know she wouldn't run into interference from the child's parent?

In my opinion, TLM knew no one would be there to pick up VS that day.

TLM said she ran some "drug errands" that day........

Did we ever learn who was buying the drugs from TLM that day?

JMO...........
 
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