Conrad Murray trial -Day eleven.

Talina said:

ITA, then panic and some of the CYA began, IMO.

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Imo, Murray's problem is he has an overindulged ego. He really thought he could waltz right into the interview with LE and they would believe everything he said and go away and leave him alone. He really thought he was that good. I have a feeling that had worked for CM many times in his life.

But as usual people aren't as smart as they think they are. He admitted to all drugs he knew would be found in autopsy and he threw a small amount of propofol in there just for good measure in case some of it was detected. He thought he was good to go.

The best thing that Dr. Steinberg did yesterday is use only the statement of Murray. Now of course because other evidence has been presented the jury knows that statement is chocked full of lies.

I really hope he testifies and if he does then I think they will call either Katherine or perhaps Prince to testify in rebuttal about his self serving comments and what he said to the children and what Paris supposedly said back to him. It is hogwash. These kids were crying their hearts out. They were NOT busy giving CM all the praises in the world. Once again it shows what a charlatan this man really is.

He lies to put himself in a better light.

Now his statement has locked him into..........MJ was alive and that looks even worse why he delayed calling 911. Of course I don't believe MJ had been alive for quite awhile but that isn't what CM said when he was in his CYA mode.

Talina said:

I've had the same thoughts about his "nurses" in his clinics. Perhaps that was by design on his part. Do not hire qualified people for his clinics and therefore no one was experienced/trained/knowledgeable (etc.) enough to know that he was running a very sub-par and questionable practice. IMO

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oceanblueeyes said:

Imo, Murray's problem is he has an overindulged ego. He really thought he could waltz right into the interview with LE and they would believe everything he said and go away and leave him alone. He really thought he was that good. I have a feeling that had worked for CM many times in his life.

But as usual people aren't as smart as they think they are. He admitted to all drugs he knew would be found in autopsy and he threw a small amount of propofol in there just for good measure in case some of it was detected. He thought he was good to go.

The best thing that Dr. Steinberg did yesterday is use only the statement of Murray. Now of course because other evidence has been presented the jury knows that statement is chocked full of lies.

I really hope he testifies and if he does then I think they will call either Katherine or perhaps Prince to testify in rebuttal about his self serving comments and what he said to the children and what Paris supposedly said back to him. It is hogwash. These kids were crying their hearts out. They were NOT busy giving CM all the praises in the world. Once again it shows what a charlatan this man really is.

He lies to put himself in a better light.

Now his statement has locked him into..........MJ was alive and that looks even worse why he delayed calling 911. Of course I don't believe MJ had been alive for quite awhile but that isn't what CM said when he was in his CYA mode.

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Morning Folks!! :seeya: Question..Is the cross of this "Sleep" specialist going to be the first item of business today? Wonder IF Flanigan will mess it up like he did yesterday with Dr. Steinberg??..

I'm going to miss some of mornings testimony..so hope everyone keeps track of the goings on??..

Talina said:

I saw Beth Karas say yesterday (either on HLN or InSessions - can't remember which one as she shows up on both shows) that there was a book recovered in the investigation that was a study book on passing the exam to be board certified cardiologist. She surmised that book suggested he was studying to take the exam. Nothing was said about whether he previously was certified or not but I'm pretty sure once you let a certification or license lapse for a period of time, you have to start all over to get your credentials back. If Dr. M did let his certifications lapse, that was just pure laziness on his part. IMO

I can't remember for sure where she said it was recovered but I am pretty sure she said it was in the articles recovered from the bedroom 2 suite area.

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I thought I heard the first dr. say that Dr. Murray was not board certified in cardiology. Maybe he meant just in CA. He could be certified in TX and/or NV.

LyndyLoo said:

Morning Folks!! :seeya: Question..Is the cross of this "Sleep" specialist going to be the first item of business today? Wonder IF Flanigan will mess it up like he did yesterday with Dr. Steinberg??..

I'm going to miss some of mornings testimony..so hope everyone keeps track of the goings on??..

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Morning Lyndy!:seeya:

Yes I guess Flan will cross :banghead: and then Dr. Shaeffer the anesthesiologist will be the last witness called by the state.

I think the state is holding other experts for rebuttal once the defense puts on their case.

IMO

TxLady2 said:

I thought I heard the first dr. say that Dr. Murray was not board certified in cardiology. Maybe he meant just in CA. He could be certified in TX and/or NV.

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I don't think he is board certified in any state.

Awhile back we learned he was and he was to take the oral and written exam to renew his certification in 2009 but never did it.

Maybe he knows he is going to lose all of his licenses.

I always felt the reason the DT let this be pushed back is they knew once it happens the Med Boards are going to swoop in like vultures concerning the gross deviations he did.

IMO

I really liked the first doctor's testimony yesterday, he didn't get frazzled when asked the same question a dozen ways. Sometimes you could see him almost grin at the absurdity of the questions, and he had a lot of Murray's statements and reports memorized. He used Murray's own words against him. I really don't see how Murray can overcome this now, not even if they put him on the stand. From the testimony of these two specialists, Murray appears to have either been ignorant, or incompetent, or he was oblivious to the dangers of what he was doing. He was in it for the fame and the money, it was a big deal to tell people he was Michael Jackson's personal doctor.
Michael would still be alive today if this pompous azz had not been so self-righteous and done the right thing. Makes me sick.

TxLady2 said:

I really liked the first doctor's testimony yesterday, he didn't get frazzled when asked the same question a dozen ways. Sometimes you could see him almost grin at the absurdity of the questions, and he had a lot of Murray's statements and reports memorized. He used Murray's own words against him. I really don't see how Murray can overcome this now, not even if they put him on the stand. From the testimony of these two specialists, Murray appears to have either been ignorant, or incompetent, or he was oblivious to the dangers of what he was doing. He was in it for the fame and the money, it was a big deal to tell people he was Michael Jackson's personal doctor.
Michael would still be alive today if this pompous azz had not been so self-righteous and done the right thing. Makes me sick.

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Dr. Steinberg was a great witness. He connected with the jurors because he explained it in terms they could all understand and everything he said was based on common sense.

Yes, if Murray testifies, if I were Walgren, I would periodically ask him "Are you lying now or were you lying then?"

oceanblueeyes said:

I don't think he is board certified in any state.

Awhile back we learned he was and he was to take the oral and written exam to renew his certification in 2009 but never did it.

Maybe he knows he is going to lose all of his licenses.

I always felt the reason the DT let this be pushed back is they knew once it happens the Med Boards are going to swoop in like vultures concerning the gross deviations he did.

IMO

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Thanks. But in Texas if you call yourself a specialist (cardiologist) you better have those certificates framed and on your wall. I know he had a clinic in Houston, but not sure if he was claiming to be a cardiologist or what. I could be wrong, but I don't think one can claim to specialize in a certain field without being board certified in that state.

Remember the head ER doctor was asked what the children said after their daddy passed away and JP wouldnt allow her to say it?

I think she may be called back in rebuttle now that CMs statement has been entered about that subject.

IMO

I am conflicted about Murray deciding if Murray will take the stand.

Would he miss the chance to gloat on himself more as he did in the LE interveiw ?

I wouldnt take the stand at this point. Maybe had his lawyers came up with a defence plan that made sence but so far it seems they think they playing tennis.

They toss out a ball and the witnesses returns scoring the points.

oceanblueeyes said:

I don't think he is board certified in any state.

Awhile back we learned he was and he was to take the oral and written exam to renew his certification in 2009 but never did it.

Maybe he knows he is going to lose all of his licenses.

I always felt the reason the DT let this be pushed back is they knew once it happens the Med Boards are going to swoop in like vultures concerning the gross deviations he did.

IMO

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This what I found regarding CM..per Internal Medicine Board Certification expired Dec 31st,2008..and in Jan 2011,http://www.abim.org/services/physver.aspx


His medical license was "Suspended" as part of conditions to get bail....Bottomline..at present CM cannot conduct medical physicianing (Is that a word?)..

It appears after he obtained his certifications in Aug 1998..He never bothered to maintain nor keep UTD on medical practices...I wouldnt think anyone would want their treating physician to be behind in knowledge base..however some dont care and just want a doc who appears to care about them..Thats somewhat alarming for me.:crazy:.but who knows???:twocents:

Soulmagent said:

I am conflicted about Murray deciding if Murray will take the stand.

Would he miss the chance to gloat on himself more as he did in the LE interview ?

I wouldn't take the stand at this point. Maybe had his lawyers came up with a defence plan that made sence but so far it seems they think they playing tennis.

They toss out a ball and the witnesses returns scoring the points.

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Ah, great analogy, Soul.

In all honesty he shouldn't testify for his own good but sometimes people are just so sure they can lie well enough that the jurors will believe them.

It is such a risk since this defendant has told so many blatant lies so the DA will have loads to work with and it opens up the door for other things to come in.

But a lot of times if the DT knows they are getting beat like a drum they may think the defendant needs to testify as their only hope.

What this DT will recommend ...who knows? I am still trying to rectify in my mind why they would have allowed him to come in and speak with LE with Chernoff right there and he had to know some of it was a bunch of baloney.:waitasec:

oceanblueeyes said:

Remember the head ER doctor was asked what the children said after their daddy passed away and JP wouldnt allow her to say it?

I think she may be called back in rebuttle now that CMs statement has been entered about that subject.

IMO

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I had forgotten about that wee point Ocean...hummm I wonder if PT will do this in rebuttal or after the Aneasthetist witness?? It will be interesting :waitasec:

New thread for Day 12 has been started.


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151381&highlight=conrad+murray

oceanblueeyes said:

I do find Murray to be a master manipulator. Very much a user. Like you said the woman who testified said she volunteered to work in his office. So how many of the three women were even paid? Any? I wonder.

I think he pours on the 'pretty words' when it benefits HIM.

I have no doubt when he was in LV he made sure to come across as the big successful doctor man. That would give him what he wanted. There he lived in a million dollar home that he was about to lose but the appearance of success is very important to Murray but not really being successful. I think Murray is quite lazy. However in his TX office he came across to his patients that he was suffering along with them because he made no money there. It was a mind game and I think he used it often on vulnerable people.

So he will sit there and wallow in his self pity that he really is the victim here. That is what all narcissist do. It has to be someone else's fault and never ever their own.

IMO

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:clap:Well said, Ocean.

Dr. Murray is the Jose Baez of cardiologists, IMO.

Talina said:

I saw Beth Karas say yesterday (either on HLN or InSessions - can't remember which one as she shows up on both shows) that there was a book recovered in the investigation that was a study book on passing the exam to be board certified cardiologist. She surmised that book suggested he was studying to take the exam. Nothing was said about whether he previously was certified or not but I'm pretty sure once you let a certification or license lapse for a period of time, you have to start all over to get your credentials back. If Dr. M did let his certifications lapse, that was just pure laziness on his part. IMO

I can't remember for sure where she said it was recovered but I am pretty sure she said it was in the articles recovered from the bedroom 2 suite area.

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So sorry this thank-you is so late -- but a big THANKS for this piece of info, Talina! And another big THANKS for what you have been doing for me & all of us on this forum. How you manage it, I don't know, but you are a treasure and a marvel.

oceanblueeyes said:

Imo, Murray's problem is he has an overindulged ego. He really thought he could waltz right into the interview with LE and they would believe everything he said and go away and leave him alone. He really thought he was that good. I have a feeling that had worked for CM many times in his life.

But as usual people aren't as smart as they think they are. He admitted to all drugs he knew would be found in autopsy and he threw a small amount of propofol in there just for good measure in case some of it was detected. He thought he was good to go.

The best thing that Dr. Steinberg did yesterday is use only the statement of Murray. Now of course because other evidence has been presented the jury knows that statement is chocked full of lies.

I really hope he testifies and if he does then I think they will call either Katherine or perhaps Prince to testify in rebuttal about his self serving comments and what he said to the children and what Paris supposedly said back to him. It is hogwash. These kids were crying their hearts out. They were NOT busy giving CM all the praises in the world. Once again it shows what a charlatan this man really is.

He lies to put himself in a better light.

Now his statement has locked him into..........MJ was alive and that looks even worse why he delayed calling 911. Of course I don't believe MJ had been alive for quite awhile but that isn't what CM said when he was in his CYA mode.

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BBM - Indeed. That is one of the smartest approaches to this kind of argument I think I have ever seen. Study CM's statement in the Since Dr. M. said it, I will take it as truth mode. Therefore, MJ had only been "down" for 2 minutes or less. He was totally viable and could be brought back around with the proper equipment & personnel. Get the EMTs there, and they will be able to save his life. Call 911 and get some air into this dying man.

But no-o-o-o-o-oo, in his panic, CM follows the standard of what he was supposed to do as MJ's employee. Privacy and as little outside exposure as possible. This had been working well for quite a while, and I understand MJ's reasons for it -- and he was trying to be so protective over his children -- again, MJ's reasons for this are very understandable. (Apparently, only a little while after the EMT call, there were photographers IN THE TREES around MJ's house & grounds. So yes, MJ did whatever he could to shelter his children and his home.) CM decided to let the security folks know what was going on & let them make the decision of what to do next. And Michael Jackson is dead.

Talina said:

I've had the same thoughts about his "nurses" in his clinics. Perhaps that was by design on his part. Do not hire qualified people for his clinics and therefore no one was experienced/trained/knowledgeable (etc.) enough to know that he was running a very sub-par and questionable practice. IMO

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When Dr. Murray told his clinic assistants he was leaving his practice to be MJ's private physician before he found a cardiologist to take over his practice or referred his patients to another doctor, he was violating the Physicians and Surgeons 'By-Laws, Code of Conduct, Statements and Guidelines' in the Province of MB which I read through a few years ago.

I suppose the Code of Conduct for Physicians & Surgeons in the US is similar to Manitoba's.

The College of Physicians and Surgeons in Manitoba regulates the conduct of doctors, investigates complaints against doctors, and enforces disciplinary measures so I wonder why no one reported Dr. Murray to the regulating body in the State of California and Nevada? AFAIK he was practicing in both States.

If I had been working for Dr. Murray when he announced he was leaving his practice, I would've placed a call to the regulating body.

Another witness testified that although she'd requested a referral from
Dr. Murray, he never provided one.

Most hospitals and medical clinics accept volunteers and students so they can gain work experience. Of course they should be supervised and not perform duties they aren't qualified to perform but the fact he let her volunteer at his clinic is okay. I instructed the Medical Office Program and arranged work experiences for my students in hospitals and medical clinics.

Here is a link to Ng's testimony.

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/04/volunteer-at-dr-murrays-office-triaged-patients/

Bluesky#1 said:

respectfully snipped

Most hospitals and medical clinics accept volunteers and students so they can gain work experience. Of course they should be supervised and not perform duties they aren't qualified to perform but the fact he let her volunteer at his clinic is okay. I instructed the Medical Office Program and arranged work experiences for my students in hospitals and medical clinics.

Here is a link to Ng's testimony.

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/04/volunteer-at-dr-murrays-office-triaged-patients/

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with any physician or clinic/hospital, etc having volunteers or students. What I am criticizing is that is all he seemed to have in his clinics, which I do think is very wrong if that is actually the truth of how he staffed his clinics. To even go further with that is that he was absent quite a bit of time from his Las Vegas clinic and his Houston clinic as he (said in his employees testimony) alternated back and forth week at at a time between them.

Then, he started spending the majority of his time in California and not at either of his clinics. His unqualified (IMO) staff at his clinics continued to see his patients from what it sounded like to me, not necessarily for medical treatment but at the very least for their therapy. Who was there to treat the patients if something had come up while they were at his office for their therapy?

As far as what regulations a physician has to follow in the states when they are closing a practice, etc. I have no idea what all those requirements are that are mandated, or if there are any other than abandonment that a physician can be legally held to follow. Sufficient notice of the physicians intent takes care of the abandonment/malpractice litigation as far as I can determine. I don't know and am not aware of any obligation of the physician to provide referrals or assist the patient in finding a replacement physician. Yes, it is very helpful if they do and certainly they need to make your medical records available to you for you to transfer but I don't believe the burden is on the exiting physician to assist you in finding a replacement, but I could certainly be wrong on that.