TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #1

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enelram said:
No longer had a job. The water park he HAD worked at over the summer went on limited hours in Sept. and closed for the winter on Nov. 1. So he was unemployed.
Probably barely earned enough when he was working to afford a wife and child. Lived on his parent's property. Wonder who paid for his SUV?
His problems were a long, long time coming to end up here. I say look at his early childhood. Especially, his relationship with his father.
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Too bad he did not sell his guns and ammo. That would have bought food for his family for several weeks.
 
enelram said:
No longer had a job. The water park he HAD worked at over the summer went on limited hours in Sept. and closed for the winter on Nov. 1. So he was unemployed.
Probably barely earned enough when he was working to afford a wife and child. Lived on his parent's property. Wonder who paid for his SUV?
His problems were a long, long time coming to end up here. I say look at his early childhood. Especially, his relationship with his father.
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Yes, he must have had troubles young if he was on medication as a tween. You wouldn't go that route unless there was a reason. What caused his troubles? I don't know, of course, but I do think the troubles have been there for a long time.

My heart breaks over every aspect of this case.

I've mentioned on other WS cases a young man in my neighborhood who showed signs of mental health issues as a little kid. As a tween, he became violent with his own family. The parents are smart, kind, resourceful, caring people....and they were at a complete loss as what to do. THERE IS ESSENTIALLY NO HELP for these families. The boy in my neighborhood is now an adult, living at home, "underemployed" (he has a job but below his capabilities....but he's just too volatile to hold a substantial job).

I see parents who are lost in cases like this...and the problems do not go away when the child becomes an adult. It's almost like a suicide that takes a decade or more to happen for these kids. Worst cases end up being murder as well.

jmopinion, an opinion that might not match yours but it's mine
 
CNN reporting a presser soon from Hospital and Church
 
enelram said:
You'd be surprised at how many youngsters get medicated because their teachers at school suggest they be tested
for misbehaving at school. So often it begins with the schools and it 'could' be to make the teacher's job easier.

But, by the time the child is acting out at school, the parent is playing catch-up for many years of ignoring the problems at home. IMO, most behavior problems begin at home. And IMO, the parents are most times responsible whether
it comes out or they deny it. Could be negligent parents, abusive parents, hyper-religious parents and many more causes. But I firmly believe it starts in the home.
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It starts in the brain, IMO. Some of what we are can be guided in a better direction, but not all. Everything from children to chickens are born being prone to certain ways of being and acting. I've seen enough newborns who exhibit personality traits that remain true for a lifetime. That's how you end up with siblings from the same home with relatively the same upbringing being so different. That's where "the black sheep" thing comes in. Sometimes, no matter what a family does, one child can end up being vastly different from the rest and getting into trouble.

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oceanblueeyes said:
I respectfully think it could. It makes the person feel entitled to do whatever they wish to do even lashing out at innocent others for the poor choices he and only he made.
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I've been around spoiled, entitled, brats. You see them all the time in all positions and walks of life. Handed everything, from birth, but they don't go around murdering folks. I think this guy had problems early on. His parents may not have known what to do with him. Let him have the apt over the barn b/c it was easier and what are you going to do after age 18? If he hasn't hurt anyone, there's nothing you can do anyway. I have a child with a couple diagnoses that have made life a struggle, for them, and for the rest of us. Love this child with all my heart, but there was never anything that has worked, and after age 18, nothing I could do. Some people assumed we may have spoiled this child, or allowed them to run wild. Nope. No, it wasn't spoiling, it was very hard work, from love, and I failed my child.
 
I wonder if we will ever know his diagnosis as a teen and why he was prescribed medication from 6-9th grades.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's not something relatively simple like ADD or ADHD.
 
Jax49 said:
Wore black mask with white skull face...

There are no words at the horror those victims must have felt.
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So obviously wanting to instill fear and horror in his victims...like a serial killer or rapist.
 
enelram said:
Remember 'Affluenza Boy' ? Could be we have a young man who wasn't properly guided or disciplined as a child and
then got into drugs or alcohol as a teen and formed a sense of 'entitlement' because of his parents apparent wealth.

Anyone see what his father did for a living? His mother did work outside the home. And his sisters were both involved
with volunteer counseling of some sort.
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I see nothing to indicate this family spoiled the heck out of him or gave him a sense of entitlement. We have nothing to indicate that. All we have heard is the guy may have been on a host of psych meds as a teen. That doesn't indicate he was spoiled or filthy rich.

Seems unfair.
 
Inthedetails said:
So, he had a job.

Comes from what seems like a decent family, is married to what seems like a nice person, is a father, has a place to live, was employed.

And then went off the deep end.

Still missing info here....

jmo
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The picture I'm getting is different. He was a troubled child, possibly had behavioral issues and a suspected chemical imbalance so was medicated by 6th grade. Possible that the military, as has happened with others for years, was considered his last chance to get his behavior and life under control. But it didn't work. From at least the age of 18 he had a tendency to stalk the girls who broke up with him. Plus, he had no problem dating a 13 year old when he was 18. Marries, beats up wife and her child. At some point also gets charged with animal cruelty. Dates some more, stalks some more, scares women, remarries, and that goes south. Spent a year locked up. This wasn't a sudden snap. Looks like he's been headed down this road nearly his whole life.

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CARIIS said:
it is the equiv of a felony -- he served a year and was bumped down to the lowest grade

it was a serious offense

if you know how to get the military version of the actual write up of the incident that would be good -- wondering about state of mind behavior during that or the resultant trial our whatever military folks call their versions of these things

is video in church confirmed

victim autopsied

look how far we are along compared to LV

fbi speaking now unlike other fbi agents

three firearms recovered

two handguns from car

glock something and 22

look how far along

dishon dc from army would have resulted in some problem in getting gun ( I remain befuddled at this focus on all of these)

they wanna kill people -- they will get the gun

too many guns IMO all over the land

just a sad reality in our nation

was domestic problems within family

had threatened them via text

not racial

not religious ( not sure I am there yet!)
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Imo this is much more than a "domestic situation"...he could've targeted them when they were alone, not surrounded by others. This is classic mass shooter and no different from any of all the other coward mass shooters, moo.
 
vmmking said:
The picture I'm getting is different. He was a troubled child, possibly had behavioral issues and a suspected chemical imbalance so was medicated by 6th grade. Possible that the military, as has happened with others for years, was considered his last chance to get his behavior and life under control. But it didn't work. From at least the age of 18 he had a tendency to stalk the girls who broke up with him. Plus, he had no problem dating a 13 year old when he was 18. Marries, beats up wife and her child. At some point also gets charged with animal cruelty. Dates some more, stalks some more, scares women, remarries, and that goes south. Spent a year locked up. This wasn't a sudden snap. Looks like he's been headed down this road nearly his whole life.

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Yes, as more info comes out this afternoon, the picture is becoming clearer. Of course.
 
gitana1 said:
Yes. And those with bad conduct discharges, which is not as severe as dishonorable, can still have guns. However, his particular offense involved domestic violence which means despite his discharge status he could not possess guns legally.
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I think the guns he had were legally purchased.

My general understanding is that for criminal activity, one needs a formal conviction for certain specific crimes to be placed on the "cannot buy" list.

DK has a 'bad conduct' discharge, so he was still inherently able to purchase weapons. Likewise, DK appears to not of been formally convicted of a disqualifying offense such as domestic violence.

Rather than pursuing a formal conviction fro Domestic Violence, the military apparently took administrative action against DK and gave him a bad conduct discharge. In most Domestic Violence cases, prosecutions are hard if the victim refuses to testify. Perhaps this is what occurred.

In any case, one can still legally possess weapons, but also be denied a concealed carry permit as there can be a discretionary element (person has not been formally convicted of a "no buy" offense- but he has made threats, is harassing his ex, is a known drug user etc).
 
rsd1200 said:
I've been around spoiled, entitled, brats. You see them all the time in all positions and walks of life. Handed everything, from birth, but they don't go around murdering folks. I think this guy had problems early on. His parents may not have known what to do with him. Let him have the apt over the barn b/c it was easier and what are you going to do after age 18? If he hasn't hurt anyone, there's nothing you can do anyway. I have a child with a couple diagnoses that have made life a struggle, for them, and for the rest of us. Love this child with all my heart, but there was never anything that has worked, and after age 18, nothing I could do. Some people assumed we may have spoiled this child, or allowed them to run wild. Nope. At this point in time, I don't know when I'll get to hug my kid again. No, it wasn't spoiling, it was very hard work, from love, and I failed. (I do want to add that my child has a good heart, [and has never been jailed for harming anyone)
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IMHO, if you still love this challenging child and are doing all that, in your power, you can, you haven't 'failed' as a parent.
 
I just want to tell all my fellow Sleuths that I am thankful that we are all here today, and I pray we are all here tomorrow safe, sound with healthy, safe family, friends & loved ones.
I [emoji172] you all & cannot say it enough.


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gitana1 said:
I'm shocked he got in with that background. Horrified.
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Years ago I was friends w/ a sociologist/counselor who counseled returning VietNam vets who were having difficulties
assimilating back into society. I asked her point blank if the the war and ptsd were the cause of their difficulties and she proclaimed, No, most of these guys were maladjusted BEFORE they went into the military. Her professional opinion.
I think the military (recruiters) overlooks or covers up or hides many problem applicants in order to make their quota.
 
Cryptic said:
I think the guns he had were legally purchased.

My general understanding is that for criminal activity, one needs a formal conviction for certain specific crimes to be placed on the "cannot buy" list.

DK has a 'bad conduct' discharge, so he was still inherently able to purchase weapons. Likewise, DK had not been formally convicted of a disqualifying offense such as domestic violence.

Rather than pursuing a formal conviction, the military apparently took administrative action against DK and gave him a bad conduct discharge. In most Domestic Violence cases, prosecutions are hard if the victim refuses to testify. Perhaps this is what occurred.

In any case, one can still legally possess weapons, but also be denied a concealed carry permit as there can be a discretionary element (person has not been formally convicted of a "no buy" offense- but he has made threats, is harassing his ex, is a known drug user etc).
Click to expand...

No. He was incarcerated. So he was charged with an actual crime.

COLORADO SPRINGS — Before a 26-year-old gunman entered a rural Texaschurch with a ballistic vest and a military-style rifle, killing at least 26 people on Sunday, he was convicted of assaulting his wife and breaking his infant stepson’s skull.
In 2012, while stationed at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico, Devin P. Kelley, 26, was charged with “assault on his spouse and assault on their child,” according to the Air Force.
“He assaulted his stepson severely enough that he fractured his skull, and he also assaulted his wife,” said Don Christensen, a retired colonel who was the chief prosecutor for the Air Force. “He pled to intentionally doing it.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/devin-patrick-kelley-texas.amp.html
 
MelmothTheLost said:
Sounds as though what's needed is a federal database of persons prohibited from acquiring firearms, and maybe the data should be viewable by anyone, including private sellers, so that anyone selling a firearm to a prohibited person becomes a party to anything done with that weapon.
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Hi Melmoth, I wonder if there is one?
 
gitana1 said:
I don't think it's any one thing. Most of these lunatics don't meet the definition of danger to themselves or others prior to their mass murders. If every domestic abuser or imbalanced loner was hospitalized our streets would be empty and our economy collapsed. (A little bit of hyperbole but just a little')

So many examples of ticking time bombs. Sometimes people hear the ticks and ignore it. Sometimes they don't. But 99% never go off like this.

Like everyone I look for the instant, easy answers when something like this happens. We tend to look for answers that support our worldviews and that make us feel confident that one of our own couldn't do something like this or that if the nation adopted our views we could fix this.

But IMO there is no easy fix. The issues and causes are complex, complicated and varied. It's not any one thing.
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One thing we know, and that the FBI has known since the 70s, is that animal abuse correlates with violence against humans. This is why, in a more perfect world, Humane workers and social workers would be cross-trained to look for both and we'd have a better reporting/database situation.

(They are working on this now with an animal abuse database through the FBI. However, I believe they only track felony abuse, and most states do not prosecute some pretty serious animal abuse as felony. For instance, in Kentucky it's only felony animal abuse if it's torture. And it's always hard to prosecute animal abuse. Plus, abusing horses and other animals considered livestock are not covered by most abuse laws, but it doesn't make those people any less dangerous.)

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