IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #26

thesaint · Feb 22, 2012

Mophebius said:
I hav
I welcome anyone's opinion on this as very little has been released to the public in this case by LE, but I am about 99% sure that this wasn't a random abduction senario. It's too improbable to lean in that direction for me. I mean were talking a short distance that Lauren would have had to walk in either direction from leaving JR's/MB,CR's before she would have been captured by surveilance video, or walked past a business. Bloomington isn't exactly a major metro area, with a population of around 80,000 people, 138,000 in all of monroe county. As someone mentioned before, there have only been a few random abduction cases in Bloomington's history, so it's not like it's a hot bed for this type of activity in the 1st place.

To paraphrase Conan-Doyle: "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however likely and probable, has a good shot at being the truth".

I've never wavered much from my belief that whatever happened with Lauren Spierer, jay rosenbaum has knowledge of and is to some extent culpable for it.

I agree that there are too many cameras and perhaps casual eyeballs for anyone to have conducted a public abduction of Lauren, even at that late hour. One of the few/the only? vehicles (the white pickup) bumming around that neighborhood at 4:30 AM was captured vividly on camera. To propose an adbuctor somehow skirted all the video surveillance on the way in and on the way out--as well as during the actual abduction?---stretches credulity.

Originally the focus seemed to be on "upstream" POI (i.e., folks who encountered Lauren on her way to JR's townhome post-Kilroy's).

But what about "downstream" potential POI's? That is, individuals whom JR contacted 4:00 AM and after, and potentially in reponse to some sort of episode involving Lauren.

I seem to recall mention of JR making phone calls to his landlord (and fellow IU and fraternity brother) around the time of the 4:15 AM phone call.

Not sure if that is true or not, but provided the police acted quickly enough, they should have pulled and preserved JR's and any POI's cell phone records.

Some of the more recent revelations and discussion has suggested to me that there are "downstream" participants who are more important than MB and CR. That is, JR reached out for help dealing with the LS situation that morning and rec'd some sort of positive response to that plea for help.

Jupiter812 · Feb 22, 2012

thesaint said:
<snipped>

I seem to recall mention of JR making phone calls to his landlord (and fellow IU and fraternity brother) around the time of the 4:15 AM phone call.

Not sure if that is true or not, but provided the police acted quickly enough, they should have pulled and preserved JR's and any POI's cell phone records.

I vaguely recall this as well. It didn't have traction. Interesting either way.

Ros · Feb 22, 2012

If the June 7 posts on PT from the person who claimed to be a friend of JR's roommates (who had already gone home for the summer) are legit, then JR contacted at least one of them soon afterward. As I recall, he conveyed the message that "this is not my fault."

imkeylime · Feb 22, 2012

doubtingthomas said:
Maybe LS is not the one being set up. Remember she has spent two weekends in a row with CR, MB and JR. Maybe someone is trying to set them up. Like maybe the group who got into a fight with CR who are also friends with the boyfriend. IMO if this is not a random abduction, and not from an OD, then there has to be a motive. I would think the boyfriend and his friends would have more of a motive to set up the 5 North group than the 5 North group has in setting up LS.

I've never really thought in this direction, but all directions are good. The only thing I can think to say is that the POIs seem to have stuck together vs. turned on each other upon returning to Bloomington. I'm not sure what that means, except that one apparently isn't bitter about something another one did. Maybe it's "misery loves company" or maybe it's self-preservation because they share a secret ... or maybe you're on to something?

Jacobite · Feb 22, 2012

Perhaps the motive was money and greed. Pretty bright girls can be sold for one million dollars. Indianapolis has become a hub for modern day slavery. That's a dirty little secret. And, I hope the Spierer's get their daughter back soon and the is arrested.

Ros · Feb 22, 2012

Jacobite said:
Perhaps the motive was money and greed. Pretty bright girls can be sold for one million dollars. Indianapolis has become a hub for modern day slavery. That's a dirty little secret. And, I hope the Spierer's get their daughter back soon and the is arrested.

Maybe posters of LS (and other missing young women) need to go up at major events such as the Indy 500 and the Sturgis Harley Rally. Too late for the Super Bowl...

akh · Feb 22, 2012

I think the angle of a conspiracy to abduct her and sell her off into slavery strain credulity. The abductor (and their vehicle) would still have to escape video detection (just as with a random abduction) and then you have a host of other problems to work through. If it's the JR/CR/MB gang involved then the money would likely create a trail to them. And if it's not them then you have to have someone waiting her out while she's in the apartments and having no idea when or if she will leave that night/morning. Someone who has been plotting this for some time. Otherwise, you're back to random abduction.

If anyone was waiting her out I cannot picture it being anyone but a jilted lover/boyfriend/psychotic stalker (who believed they had a relationship even if she barely knew the person).... someone knowing she didn't live at those apartments and fully watching and collecting visual evidence to use against her no matter what time she left the apartments because they plan to confront her with questions (that they already know the answer to) or catch her leaving and confronting her then no matter what time it was.

Anyone else IMHO would give up rather quickly not knowing if she'd be staying there.

Jacobite · Feb 22, 2012

akh said:
I think the angle of a conspiracy to abduct her and sell her off into slavery strain credulity. The abductor (and their vehicle) would still have to escape video detection (just as with a random abduction) and then you have a host of other problems to work through. If it's the JR/CR/MB gang involved then the money would likely create a trail to them. And if it's not them then you have to have someone waiting her out while she's in the apartments and having no idea when or if she will leave that night/morning. Someone who has been plotting this for some time. Otherwise, you're back to random abduction.

If anyone was waiting her out I cannot picture it being anyone but a jilted lover/boyfriend/psychotic stalker (who believed they had a relationship even if she barely knew the person).... someone knowing she didn't live at those apartments and fully watching and collecting visual evidence to use against her no matter what time she left the apartments because they plan to confront her with questions (that they already know the answer to) or catch her leaving and confronting her then no matter what time it was.

Anyone else IMHO would give up rather quickly not knowing if she'd be staying there.

There;s a lot more of this going on than we want to believe. Few are ever caught and few women are freed. Here's a public service announcement that mentions Indianapolis.

http://www.mediafire.com/?hiahz5mmba82d8z

Jacobite · Feb 22, 2012

The person who took Lauren did manage to get out without getting caught on camera.
Might not have been so difficult either. Grab her cell. Then take her. Looks like a textbook modern day kidnapping.

Ros · Feb 23, 2012

There are so many things about this case that simply don't make sense, such as why did she go to Smallwood with CR (and without her phone and shoes) after leaving Sports, and then why didn't she go into her apartment to get shoes after reaching the fifth floor of Smallwood? I can see why her parents would like to talk to CR. Even if he does not remember anything after being hit, he might remember why she left her shoes and phone behind.

Jupiter812 · Feb 23, 2012

This keeps bugging me when I read it so for the time being maybe we can set the record straight: Salzmann, CR's lawyer, claims that CR does not remember anything starting 15 minutes prior to getting punched in the face. This is a critical difference than his not remembering anything after getting punched in the face because it means he can't/won't explain why they left Sports and why they did so w/o her shoes and phone.

OldSteve · Feb 23, 2012

Jupiter812 said:
This keeps bugging me when I read it so for the time being maybe we can set the record straight: Salzmann, CR's lawyer, claims that CR does not remember anything starting 15 minutes prior to getting punched in the face. This is a critical difference than his not remembering anything after getting punched in the face because it means he can't/won't explain why they left Sports and why they did so w/o her shoes and phone.

Got to say, that not remembering is most strange!
Was he completely knocked out?

When I was young, and in school, I was accidentally smashed into a telephone pole - completely knocked out for at least 10 minutes, maybe more since I don't remember being moved, but when I came too I was in the nurse's office! Despite that blow, I can remember everything prior and after the event.
For the rest of that day and most of next, I could not get out of bed and was very nauseous.

So two things bug me here - if the punch was so severe as to cause memory loss, how long was he knocked out for?
I would think he, like I, would have been nauseous, or at least messed up and not able to do much for a next day...

Jupiter812 · Feb 23, 2012

OldSteve said:
Got to say, that not remembering is most strange!
Was he completely knocked out?

When I was young, and in school, I was accidentally smashed into a telephone pole - completely knocked out for at least 10 minutes, maybe more since I don't remember being moved, but when I came too I was in the nurse's office! Despite that blow, I can remember everything prior and after the event.
For the rest of that day and most of next, I could not get out of bed and was very nauseous.

So two things bug me here - if the punch was so severe as to cause memory loss, how long was he knocked out for?
I would think he, like I, would have been nauseous, or at least messed up and not able to do much for a next day...

Hard to say because he didn't see medical attention. But a local doctor did say it is possible.

Jupiter812 · Feb 23, 2012

Ros said:
If the June 7 posts on PT from the person who claimed to be a friend of JR's roommates (who had already gone home for the summer) are legit, then JR contacted at least one of them soon afterward. As I recall, he conveyed the message that "this is not my fault."

If true, this sure speaks volumes. Very different that saying something like, "I don't know where she could be."

holly2325 · Feb 23, 2012

thesaint said:
To paraphrase Conan-Doyle: "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however likely and probable, has a good shot at being the truth".

I've never wavered much from my belief that whatever happened with Lauren Spierer, jay rosenbaum has knowledge of and is to some extent culpable for it.

I agree that there are too many cameras and perhaps casual eyeballs for anyone to have conducted a public abduction of Lauren, even at that late hour. One of the few/the only? vehicles (the white pickup) bumming around that neighborhood at 4:30 AM was captured vividly on camera. To propose an adbuctor somehow skirted all the video surveillance on the way in and on the way out--as well as during the actual abduction?---stretches credulity.

Originally the focus seemed to be on "upstream" POI (i.e., folks who encountered Lauren on her way to JR's townhome post-Kilroy's).

But what about "downstream" potential POI's? That is, individuals whom JR contacted 4:00 AM and after, and potentially in reponse to some sort of episode involving Lauren.

I seem to recall mention of JR making phone calls to his landlord (and fellow IU and fraternity brother) around the time of the 4:15 AM phone call.

Not sure if that is true or not, but provided the police acted quickly enough, they should have pulled and preserved JR's and any POI's cell phone records.

Some of the more recent revelations and discussion has suggested to me that there are "downstream" participants who are more important than MB and CR. That is, JR reached out for help dealing with the LS situation that morning and rec'd some sort of positive response to that plea for help.

Good Post.
I agree with you that it is likely that JR reached out to someone early Friday morning. Either that or they put LS in the dumpster in back and got lucky. Either way their current behavior suggests that they are somehow sure she is now unfindable. There is a limited number of people I can imagine JR would be comfortable calling about disposal of a body. What if they say no? I could consider the landlord or drug supplier, but Dad and brother are at the top of my list. IMO the 4:15 call to DR was to establish something, either that JR was home or DR was home or to attach a phone to someone. The attachment of LS to the call I believe was an idea that he came up with later.

I would love to be clear about the possibilities in obtaining cel phone records.
For example:

1. If LE has a cel phone number for JR can they get an itemized list of all outgoing/incoming calls from his phone? Say for the dates between April 1 and Sept 30. I used to get an itemized cel phone bill with this info, that would be perfect for such a search. Do these kinds of records exist and for how long?

2. How would they do this legally, figure out who his carrier was and get a subpoena? Do you think Salzman and Voyles have grounds to block this?

3. Would circumstances allow LE to subpoena the cel records of the Rosenbaum home phone for incoming calls. Same for Dad Rosenbaums cel. Looking for phone calls from what might be a second cel phone of JR.

jjenny · Feb 23, 2012

Jupiter812 said:
This keeps bugging me when I read it so for the time being maybe we can set the record straight: Salzmann, CR's lawyer, claims that CR does not remember anything starting 15 minutes prior to getting punched in the face. This is a critical difference than his not remembering anything after getting punched in the face because it means he can't/won't explain why they left Sports and why they did so w/o her shoes and phone.

I don't know if CR remembers anything or not, but the idea that head injury could lead to memory loss from a period prior to injury is not strange. For instance, movie "The vow" is based on a real story, and the woman actually lost memory of the large period of time prior to car crush, including her marriage to her husband, etc. So memory loss could be from some time before trauma.

bx2 · Feb 23, 2012

Jupiter812 said:
If true, this sure speaks volumes. Very different that saying something like, "I don't know where she could be."

The context to that claimed quote of "it's not my fault", if it helps, was in regard to the police searching the townhouse.

Jupiter812 said:
This keeps bugging me when I read it so for the time being maybe we can set the record straight: Salzmann, CR's lawyer, claims that CR does not remember anything starting 15 minutes prior to getting punched in the face. This is a critical difference than his not remembering anything after getting punched in the face because it means he can't/won't explain why they left Sports and why they did so w/o her shoes and phone.

It seems like Salzmann's quotes get interpreted literally here, like the no memory thing and the bit about 3 or 4 people seeing LS after his client. Look at what happened to his original quotes about his client being taken care of by LS... (purported) video evidence to the contrary was found. I think what he's said can be useful at painting a picture, but it doesn't have to be black or white, its probably closer to gray.

That being said, why 15 minutes? Like you stated above it prevents him from having to explain the exit from Sports. Okay, so what happened 15 minutes before getting punched that he remembers? Is it just some general memory of being at Sports or is there something in particular that he knows to have happened at that time. Whether it be interviews with Sports personnel, CR cell/text records, LS or CR credit card records, interviews with others that may have interacted or witnessed them there that night, surely the reason why they left (and left behind her things) is known to LE.... right? Please tell me they can at least deduce this.

LongTallTexan · Feb 23, 2012

OldSteve said:
Got to say, that not remembering is most strange!
Was he completely knocked out?

When I was young, and in school, I was accidentally smashed into a telephone pole - completely knocked out for at least 10 minutes, maybe more since I don't remember being moved, but when I came too I was in the nurse's office! Despite that blow, I can remember everything prior and after the event.
For the rest of that day and most of next, I could not get out of bed and was very nauseous.

So two things bug me here - if the punch was so severe as to cause memory loss, how long was he knocked out for?
I would think he, like I, would have been nauseous, or at least messed up and not able to do much for a next day...

Even CR may not know what caused the amnesia, was it alcohol/drugs or was it the punch. If the memory loss begins before the punch, then he truly doensn't know because he can't remember....so he says. I guess the reason really doesn't matter as much as the guy isn't talking and I don't see that changing.

LongTallTexan · Feb 23, 2012

Couldn't find the post, but a few pages back someone asked about the routes taken that night.
First - LS and DR from Smallwood to 5N via the infamous camera laden alley.
Second - LS and CR from 5N to Kilroys via ???? Thought someone said that they took 11th to Walnut and down to Kilroys, but that was unconfirmed??? Anyone?
Third - LS and CR from Smallwood to 5N again, again via the alley, and caught on camera
Last - LS alone from 5N back to Smallwood, this time a new route taking 11th over to college and down.

Here's where I"m going with this....same two points, human nature says most will take the same path. The one time she took a different path, they had a different destination. Assuming JR is telling the truth about the 4:15 call and LS leaving, then she knew she didn't have her phone...if she knew she didn't have her phone, I'm convinced she knew she didn't have her keys, wallet and SHOES? So where was she going? What else is in that direction that wouldn't require $$, shoes, wallett (ID) or phone? Boyfriends apt? I don't know....very concerning story if it's true.

Jupiter812 · Feb 23, 2012

jjenny said:
I don't know if CR remembers anything or not, but the idea that head injury could lead to memory loss from a period prior to injury is not strange. For instance, movie "The vow" is based on a real story, and the woman actually lost memory of the large period of time prior to car crush, including her marriage to her husband, etc. So memory loss could be from some time before trauma.

I'm not questioning whether it's possible or not. I know it is possible according to a local expert who was interviewed by the local paper about CR's alleged injury. I was pointing out that CR's amnesia claim begins 15 min before the punch, not after.

IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #26

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