Lyons Sisters Q & A

Motherof5 said:

I am wondering about the military.Coffey was in the military and Richard's profile of TRM mentions the military.I don't know much about what happens when you enlist,but I'm wondering if there is any type of psychological assessment done before one can enter the military? I'm wondering what they thought of Coffey.Can anyone explain how the military works?

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I can't explain the whole military in this small post, but will mention a bit about Fred Coffey and his Navy time.

Coffey first enlisted in the Navy in 1962 at the age of 17. He served three consecutive enlistments (each hitch for four years) for a total of 12 years.

He had actually applied to re-enlist again for a fourth term, but his legal troubles involving his inappropriate behavior with children caused Navy officials to NOT allow his fourth enlistment to take place. The Navy did not have jurisdiction over his crimes. They were handled in civilian criminal court proceedings.

Coffey had reached the end of his third enlistment and was the rank of Petty Officer First Class (Paygrade E6) by September 1974. He was given an honorable discharge - based on his behavior and work in the Navy. But because of the civilian convictions, he was denied re-enlistment.

It is possible that Coffey landed his job with Vitro Laboratories in Maryland through connections that he had made in the Navy.

So, Coffey was probably a pretty good sailor and likely did well in his occupational specialty. He obviously was a sexual predator while in the Navy and managed to hide that part of his behavior from his Navy supervisors and officers.

It should be noted that by late 1975, Coffey had managed to enlist in the North Carolina National Guard.

If the Navy had learned of Coffey's proclivities earlier, it is very possible that he would have been evaluated by Navy psycologists and that a recommendation for an administrative discharge could have been made.

If the Navy had tried him by Court Martial for the abduction and rape of the Navy dependant child, such a court could have recommended such punishments as confinement at hard labor, reduction in rate to E1, loss of all pay and allowances, and Dishonorable or Bad Conduct Discharge from the Navy.

Do you have to take a psych. evaluation prior to enlisting in the military, or prior to them accepting you??

Motherof5 said:

The girls shared a paper route with younger brother Joe.They wouldn't have handed the paper to people,but they would have knocked on doors to collect the money for the route however often that was done,right?I'd like to know when was the last time they collected the money? The article said that they split the route.I assume that means that they took turns,so they would each be out alone doing the route on thier particlar Wednesday.I'm just thinking that in collecting the money,they would have come in contact with alot of people.I wonder how soon before they were taken did they collect money from the route and who collected it?

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Bumpity Bump

This got buried in other Q&A.

I don't know the answers to these paper route questions. Did it mention what paper they delivered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motherof5
The girls shared a paper route with younger brother Joe.They wouldn't have handed the paper to people,but they would have knocked on doors to collect the money for the route however often that was done,right?I'd like to know when was the last time they collected the money? The article said that they split the route.I assume that means that they took turns,so they would each be out alone doing the route on thier particlar Wednesday.I'm just thinking that in collecting the money,they would have come in contact with alot of people.I wonder how soon before they were taken did they collect money from the route and who collected it?

Bumpity Bump

This got buried in other Q&A.

I don't know the answers to these paper route questions. Did it mention what paper they delivered?
__________________
Children don't stop dancing


I don't know the name of the paper. I'm just thinking that they would have come in contact with several people on their route.If anyone can help me with these questions I'd really appreciate it.

I like doing timelines and I think it would be useful as we have a lot of events for that day, but they seem to be listed and references across several different threads without one post listing them all together with comments.

• AM: Mr. Lyon slept in after overnight radio show; Katherine invited over to a girlfriend's house to play, but was discouraged by Mrs. Lyon. Arrangements were made for Katherine to call at 1500. Katherine told friend she and Sheila were going to Wheaton Plaza.
  
  
• 1100-1200: Sisters left home.
  
  
• ~1930 (1130): Sisters allegedly seen near Drumm Avenue and Faulkner Place as they walked away from their home toward Wheaton Plaza by 12 year-old David Reed (knew them from the pool the previous summer and having attended school with Sheila). Sighting of girls heading away from home that late in the evening in the dark discounted two weeks after it was made. [This sighting is believed by Richard to be a possible error by police and should have been Eleven rather than Seven. Given that it is discounted otherwise and makes no difference since they obviously made it to the mall, I include it here.]
  
  
• ~1145: Sisters seen by Sarah Biosca, retired seamstress, at a leather shop looking at a wallet.
  
  
• Unknown: Sisters seen at Up Against The Wall (jeans store) by 18 year-old clerk.
  
  
• Noon: Mrs. Lyon out bowling.
  
  
• ~1300: Sisters seen at mall center waiting at the Easter Bunny display by brother Jay; Jay walked right by, but Jay does not know if they saw him.
  
  
• Unknown: Sheila seen by 13 year-old who knew her as she was sitting on the Easter Bunny's arm as children talked to the bunny.
  
  
• 1300-1400: Sisters seen by "Jimmy" and friend (both 13 years old) near the Orange Bowl restaurant as they were talking to TRM.
  
  
• ~1400: Sisters allegedly seen by brother Jay as they ate pizza in the Orange Bowl according to Washington Post. Sighting not reported in interview with Ms. Kuhn in 6 April 1975 Washington Star interview.
  
  
• 1430-1500: Sisters seen near intersection of Drumm and Devon by another boy who only came forward after the discounting of the 1930 sighting. This sighting was/is viewed with skepticism as it was reported two weeks later.
  
  
• ~Early PM: Sisters seen by James Mann as they passed by his house. (This sighting was not reported by any of the contemporary news media and is dubious.)
  
  
• 1500 (3pm): Mrs. Lyon: "A good time to be home"; Katherine was expected to be home to call her girlfriend. Mr. Lyon left home to pick up Mrs. Lyon at bowling.
  
  
• 1600-1630: Mr. and Mrs. Lyon returned home.
  
  
• 1800: Supper, Mrs. Lyon worried as girls were not home yet.
  
  
• 1900-2000: Sisters reported missing.

Thank you this timeline is very helpful!

Fukiyama said:

I like doing timelines and I think it would be useful as we have a lot of events for that day, but they seem to be listed and references across several different threads without one post listing them all together with comments.

• AM: Mr. Lyon slept in after overnight radio show; Katherine invited over to a girlfriend's house to play, but was discouraged by Mrs. Lyon. Arrangements were made for Katherine to call at 1500. Katherine told friend she and Sheila were going to Wheaton Plaza.
  
  
• 1100-1200: Sisters left home.
  
  
• ~1930 (1130): Sisters allegedly seen near Drumm Avenue and Faulkner Place as they walked away from their home toward Wheaton Plaza by 12 year-old David Reed (knew them from the pool the previous summer and having attended school with Sheila). Sighting of girls heading away from home that late in the evening in the dark discounted two weeks after it was made. [This sighting is believed by Richard to be a possible error by police and should have been Eleven rather than Seven. Given that it is discounted otherwise and makes no difference since they obviously made it to the mall, I include it here.]
  
  
• ~1145: Sisters seen by Sarah Biosca, retired seamstress, at a leather shop looking at a wallet.
  
  
• Unknown: Sisters seen at Up Against The Wall (jeans store) by 18 year-old clerk.
  
  
• Noon: Mrs. Lyon out bowling.
  
  
• ~1300: Sisters seen at mall center waiting at the Easter Bunny display by brother Jay; Jay walked right by, but Jay does not know if they saw him.
  
  
• Unknown: Sheila seen by 13 year-old who knew her as she was sitting on the Easter Bunny's arm as children talked to the bunny.
  
  
• 1300-1400: Sisters seen by "Jimmy" and friend (both 13 years old) near the Orange Bowl restaurant as they were talking to TRM.
  
  
• ~1400: Sisters allegedly seen by brother Jay as they ate pizza in the Orange Bowl according to Washington Post. Sighting not reported in interview with Ms. Kuhn in 6 April 1975 Washington Star interview.
  
  
• 1430-1500: Sisters seen near intersection of Drumm and Devon by another boy who only came forward after the discounting of the 1930 sighting. This sighting was/is viewed with skepticism as it was reported two weeks later.
  
  
• ~Early PM: Sisters seen by James Mann as they passed by his house. (This sighting was not reported by any of the contemporary news media and is dubious.)
  
  
• 1500 (3pm): Mrs. Lyon: "A good time to be home"; Katherine was expected to be home to call her girlfriend. Mr. Lyon left home to pick up Mrs. Lyon at bowling.
  
  
• 1600-1630: Mr. and Mrs. Lyon returned home.
  
  
• 1800: Supper, Mrs. Lyon worried as girls were not home yet.
  
  
• 1900-2000: Sisters reported missing.

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Wish we knew what time each brother arrived home to add to this timeline.

Motherof5 said:

The girls shared a paper route with younger brother Joe.They wouldn't have handed the paper to people,but they would have knocked on doors to collect the money for the route however often that was done,right?I'd like to know when was the last time they collected the money? The article said that they split the route.I assume that means that they took turns,so they would each be out alone doing the route on thier particlar Wednesday.I'm just thinking that in collecting the money,they would have come in contact with alot of people.I wonder how soon before they were taken did they collect money from the route and who collected it?

Click to expand...

Bolded by me for reference.

The thought just occurred to me that if this was a weekly paper delivered on Wednesdays chances are it was a free newspaper. No money would be collected.

I grew up in Montgomery County and we had a newspaper delivered weekly every Wednesday and it was free.

Just a thought.

I'm thinking that knowing a little bit more about the girls personalities might be helpful in trying to figure out what they might have done that day.I have a question about statements made by their father and one by their friends. John Lyon said this in an interview............

"They weren't shy," Lyon said in an interview with the Montgomery Journal. "They were very confident and trusting. Maybe too much."


Their friends said this about them in the Washington Star article.........

It was into this busy, teeming shopping scene that the two Lyon sisters walked. Two blond haired girls: Kate, the youngest, "sort of the silly one - the outgoing one" as some friends affectionately put it, and Sheila, the oldest, who they said is "quiet - she would talk when you talked to her."

This makes me think that Kate was out going and Sheila was somewhat shy.However,John Lyon said that they weren't shy. Kids aren't shy around their parents and others that they know well,but it sounds like Sheila was shy around others outside of the family.I bring this up because Sheila was the oldest and it would seem that given the comments made by kids that knew her,saying that she was quiet,she would speak when spoken to,seems like a careful person. John also said that they were trusting,I wonder how trusting? Sheila had just started babysitting,according to her mother,that means that she was somewhat responsible. Considering that her friends said that Sheila would talk when you talked to her,I think she might have answered an adult that would approach her,but would she have gone willingly with a stranger or someone she had only spoken to once,briefly?:waitasec:

I guess it would depend on what people meant when they said she would talk if you talked to her first. Does this mean she'd talk to anyone who spoke to her first, or was she this way just at school with acquaintances/people she didn't know well?? Did she trust ANYONE or just people she knew??
It is natural for a parent to have a slightly different opinion of a child's personality than a peer would especially if they didn't see them around their peers much.

It would be nice to know more about these girls. Getting to know their habits, likes, dislikes etc. could give us a clue to this puzzle.

Fukiyama said:

I like doing timelines and I think it would be useful as we have a lot of events for that day, but they seem to be listed and references across several different threads without one post listing them all together with comments.

• AM: Mr. Lyon slept in after overnight radio show; Katherine invited over to a girlfriend's house to play, but was discouraged by Mrs. Lyon. Arrangements were made for Katherine to call at 1500. Katherine told friend she and Sheila were going to Wheaton Plaza.
  
  
• 1100-1200: Sisters left home.
  
  
• ~1930 (1130): Sisters allegedly seen near Drumm Avenue and Faulkner Place as they walked away from their home toward Wheaton Plaza by 12 year-old David Reed (knew them from the pool the previous summer and having attended school with Sheila). Sighting of girls heading away from home that late in the evening in the dark discounted two weeks after it was made. [This sighting is believed by Richard to be a possible error by police and should have been Eleven rather than Seven. Given that it is discounted otherwise and makes no difference since they obviously made it to the mall, I include it here.]
  
  
• ~1145: Sisters seen by Sarah Biosca, retired seamstress, at a leather shop looking at a wallet.
  
  
• Unknown: Sisters seen at Up Against The Wall (jeans store) by 18 year-old clerk.
  
  
• Noon: Mrs. Lyon out bowling.
  
  
• ~1300: Sisters seen at mall center waiting at the Easter Bunny display by brother Jay; Jay walked right by, but Jay does not know if they saw him.
  
  
• Unknown: Sheila seen by 13 year-old who knew her as she was sitting on the Easter Bunny's arm as children talked to the bunny.
  
  
• 1300-1400: Sisters seen by "Jimmy" and friend (both 13 years old) near the Orange Bowl restaurant as they were talking to TRM.
  
  
• ~1400: Sisters allegedly seen by brother Jay as they ate pizza in the Orange Bowl according to Washington Post. Sighting not reported in interview with Ms. Kuhn in 6 April 1975 Washington Star interview.
  
  
• 1430-1500: Sisters seen near intersection of Drumm and Devon by another boy who only came forward after the discounting of the 1930 sighting. This sighting was/is viewed with skepticism as it was reported two weeks later.
  
  
• ~Early PM: Sisters seen by James Mann as they passed by his house. (This sighting was not reported by any of the contemporary news media and is dubious.)
  
  
• 1500 (3pm): Mrs. Lyon: "A good time to be home"; Katherine was expected to be home to call her girlfriend. Mr. Lyon left home to pick up Mrs. Lyon at bowling.
  
  
• 1600-1630: Mr. and Mrs. Lyon returned home.
  
  
• 1800: Supper, Mrs. Lyon worried as girls were not home yet.
  
  
• 1900-2000: Sisters reported missing.

Click to expand...

Can we add to this timeline, the sighting of girls in a vehicle in VA, I believe the sighting was 4/1, but wasn't reported until 4/8.
AND
Can we add the date of the (fake) extortion call(i don't know this date, trying to find it). What date was Mr. Lyon supposed to drop money in the AA Courthouse (looking for this date too)??

Thanks.

Does anyone know how far from the Lyon's Melanie lived and in which direction? The article just says,"several doors down on the other side of the street."

Motherof5 said:

Does anyone know how far from the Lyon's Melanie lived and in which direction? The article just says,"several doors down on the other side of the street."

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The houses in the subdivision are rather small, 1950's vintage. Spacing is pretty even at about 20 feet apart. So they were pretty close.

In a previous post you had mentioned..........


Quote by Richard-*At some point, I was asked to write up a case summary *about the missing girls for a Website which eventually became "Maryland's Most Missing". That summary was "borrowed" by many other websites, usually in total, sometimes in a "rewrite" form. I later updated my summary for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) file on the girls.-

I was wondering if you had close contacts at the NCMEC or other missing children orginizations,as they have asked you to write for them in the past? I was hoping that if you do,maybe your contacts could be of some help in bringing some much needed attention to this case.

Motherof5 said:

...I was wondering if you had close contacts at the NCMEC or other missing children orginizations,as they have asked you to write for them in the past? I was hoping that if you do,maybe your contacts could be of some help in bringing some much needed attention to this case.

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I know that there is an annual vigil sponsored by a Maryland Missing website held in Annapolis, MD (Maryland's capital) to promote and encourage the memory of missing children and adults. They also are active in notifying the news media of upcoming "anniversary" dates of certain cases, providing information that reporters can use in writing any articles.

The NCMEC and the Doenetwork (to name a few) have been very receptive to any and all information which I have sent to them regarding the Lyon Case and some others. I remember in particular sending them an updated case summary which included a brief summary of what the girls were wearing, and they immediately updated their websites.

When I sent copies of the sketch and description of the Tape Recorder Man to the Doenetwork, it was included on their site.

Each organization, and subsequently its website has ground rules and procedures which they follow regarding how they operate and who they talk to regarding the cases they take on and post. Some require a relative to formally request their assistance. Others require that a Law Enforcement Agency furnish the information, etc.

The Doenetwork will not post any case until a certain amount of time has passed. It used to be nine years, but that rule may have changed. Also, they have some strict rules against their members making contact with the families of victims. And when clues or cases are called in to them, they have a group evaluate them. -- I don't mean to speak for them or to criticize them in any way, I am just stating what I understand them to have said to me in the past.

Most old cases which are brought to media attention are there because of victims's families or police encouragement, I think. At least those factors are very important.

Richard said:

I know that there is an annual vigil sponsored by a Maryland Missing website held in Annapolis, MD (Maryland's capital) to promote and encourage the memory of missing children and adults. They also are active in notifying the news media of upcoming "anniversary" dates of certain cases, providing information that reporters can use in writing any articles.

The NCMEC and the Doenetwork (to name a few) have been very receptive to any and all information which I have sent to them regarding the Lyon Case and some others. I remember in particular sending them an updated case summary which included a brief summary of what the girls were wearing, and they immediately updated their websites.

When I sent copies of the sketch and description of the Tape Recorder Man to the Doenetwork, it was included on their site.

Each organization, and subsequently its website has ground rules and procedures which they follow regarding how they operate and who they talk to regarding the cases they take on and post. Some require a relative to formally request their assistance. Others require that a Law Enforcement Agency furnish the information, etc.

The Doenetwork will not post any case until a certain amount of time has passed. It used to be nine years, but that rule may have changed. Also, they have some strict rules against their members making contact with the families of victims. And when clues or cases are called in to them, they have a group evaluate them. -- I don't mean to speak for them or to criticize them in any way, I am just stating what I understand them to have said to me in the past.

Most old cases which are brought to media attention are there because of victims's families or police encouragement, I think. At least those factors are very important.

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Richard, thank you so much for filling me in on how all of these different orginizations work,I had no idea.Considering their rules,do you have a connection with any of them as they've accepted your info?

Motherof5 said:

Richard, thank you so much for filling me in on how all of these different orginizations work,I had no idea.Considering their rules,do you have a connection with any of them as they've accepted your info?

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I have no financial stake or membership in any of the websites that I mentioned in my previous post. I have, however, contacted webmasters, forum hosts, website owners, and points of contact with information, questions, updates, and correspondance at times.

Richard said:

I have no financial stake or membership in any of the websites that I mentioned in my previous post. I have, however, contacted webmasters, forum hosts, website owners, and points of contact with information, questions, updates, and correspondance at times.

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So if I am understanding you correctly, you just send info about this case to various websites from time to time, and they have accepted this info and posted it to their site.
That is awesome. Thank you for getting the word out to more and more people through your efforts with these sites. The more eyes that read about this case, the better the chance that someone who knows something may come forth. Because there is definitely someone who knows something, we just need to tap into the right resource. Thank you again for all your efforts in this case. It's very selfless of you, considering you gain nothing for your research efforts, and the time it takes to put info together, and then reach out to the various websites.
The world could use more acts of kindess such as this.

Sorry if this has been mentioned somewhere and i missed it.
I'd like to know if john and mary remained married after the girls disappeared.

There seems to be some information about John and his positions, but none about Mary with the exception of the 1975 article. And it doesn't seem, at least not with the info provided in this forum, that they work on any cause/causes together.
I ask because only a really strong marriage can survive such a horrific tragedy. And I wonder what became of the family that remained after this event.

I was wondering,in addition to STL's question above,does anyone know if Mary worked out of the house? She was bowling that day,so it seemed like she might not have.Also,did Mary drive? That last article that Richard posted said that John was sleeping,but got up to pick Mary up from bowling.:waitasec: