Alternate Theories

stephsb said:

Agree that IF this was a rape/murder it's unlikely two people were involved in the rape/murder (group sexual assaults happen, but are pretty rare) but I'm not convinced another party wasn't knowingly involved after the fact.

I'm not a huge fan of the BD/ST theory (although I do believe it's definitely a valid theory worth considering) because I feel the window for the murder to happen is really narrow if we involve BD. Blaine and Brendan initially stated they woke Bobby up at 345. That gives him from 4-5 to commit the rape/murder, hide the body, and get cleaned up as he was back at the house at 5. Also, who burned the body? BD is back at home at 5, and spends the next 3 hours sleeping/watching tv (per his statement) ST is in GB w. Barb from 530-730

If Steven didn't do this (and I'm not 100 percent ready to rule him out btw) then I think the best suspect would be CA. While ST/BD do have suspicious alibis that should be probed further, they are accounted for during significant portions of the night, which narrows the timeline. The timeline for CA remains wide open. Until someone can pin down his specific locations during the 245-5 time period, he's the #1 alternate suspect in my book. He knew Teresa was there, he knows the property well/can access everything on it easily, has a history of aggressive behavior w. Women customers, and had a violent, volatile relationship with his ex-wife, w. Multiple incidents of violent behavior, including violation of domestic abuse injunction, threats, stalking, preventing her from calling LE, and forcible rape.

Would like to add that assuming CA did not murder Teresa, I believe he knows something and/or aided after the fact. His house was at too central of a location to see nothing if he was in it alone all night like he said (his reason for having no alibi was he lives by himself) Brendan states repeatedly they drove the RAV4 past his house and that he "probably knew". He also sees Steven and CA together in the garage the day after the murder talking and working on a car, which LE immediately tells him Ian true because it doesn't fit their narrative. He was very involved in this from the beginning, and I just don't buy that he knows nothing. Someone on that property knows something and saw something, IMO


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Question because I can't recall: Does BD (not Brendan) have an alibi confirming he was in the trailer from 5 until whenever, sleeping/watching tv?

Tawny said:

Question because I can't recall: Does BD (not Brendan) have an alibi confirming he was in the trailer from 5 until whenever, sleeping/watching tv?

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In the dasey trial, the defense says that he helps steven clean the garage and helps with the bonfire, that starts at about 6-ish all the way to evening where barb calls for him to come home.

Defense accepts that brendan was there to gather things for the fire, clean the garage, and tend to the bonfire.


Prosecution contends that dassey was there much earlier as well, which is when they believe rape/murder would have occurred, with brendan bringing mail to steve's house and hearing her scream.

MaxManning said:

In the dasey trial, the defense says that he helps steven clean the garage and helps with the bonfire, that starts at about 6-ish all the way to evening where barb calls for him to come home.

Defense accepts that brendan was there to gather things for the fire, clean the garage, and tend to the bonfire.


Prosecution contends that dassey was there much earlier as well, which is when they believe rape/murder would have occurred, with brendan bringing mail to steve's house and hearing her scream.

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Which Dassey are you talking about? I'm asking about Bobby (It's hard to only use initials when all them boys have the same initials LOL!)

Tawny said:

Which Dassey are you talking about? I'm asking about Bobby (It's hard to only use initials when all them boys have the same initials LOL!)

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Omg I know I hate that they all have the same initials lol. I try to use BD to refer just to Bobby and call the other three by name. I am not certain if anyone can verify that BD was home that entire time. He was definitely home at 5, and no one says anything about him leaving. Bryan was there from about 5-7/730 and he doesn't mention BD leaving. It is mentioned that Blaine leaves, but nothing is said of BD. I'll search the docs and see if I can come up with anything.


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Tawny said:

Which Dassey are you talking about? I'm asking about Bobby (It's hard to only use initials when all them boys have the same initials LOL!)

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Yeah, I was confused!

Bobby Dassey, changed his statement from before trial.

Blaine also gave different testimony about bobby being home in avery and dassey trial.


Bobby's alibi is scott tadych who see's him heading out to go hunting.

A Cold Case Expert Thinks 'Making A Murderer' May Be Tied To One Of The Most Prolific Serial Killers Ever
Ryan Harkness January 20, 2016

One of the most frustrating questions regarding the death of Teresa Halbach in Netflix’s crime documentary Making A Murderer is “If Steven Avery didn’t kill her, who did?” We’ve heard a couple of theories offered up by internet sleuths and Steven Avery himself, but there’s been nothing very conclusive – partially because the police did such a terrible job of following leads once they’d decided Avery was the killer. But former police sergeant and FBI cold case task force worker John Cameron thinks he knows who did it.

According to Cameron, Edward Wayne Edwards was a serial killer that liked to set other people up for the crimes he committed and was obsessed with the media attention surrounding murder. Sometimes he would pick victims based on reports he read in newspapers. Other times his target would be the person being set up for murder, with the victim being almost inconsequential.

Here's a theory I thought up regarding the deleted voicemails:

Depending on the time of these alleged voicemails (I don't remember specifically, if they had a time for the voicemails coming in and/or when they may have been deleted):

I think MH and/or ex-bf called TH and left incriminating voicemails that placed them on the Avery property around the same time JC called in the tag #. It could have been something like, "Teresa, pick up the phone, it's me, I'm standing by your car and am worried about you" or something along those lines. Then, when JC swears them to secrecy regarding the key, the discovery of the vehicle, and trespassing, they realized they needed to somehow get rid of the voicemail(s) they left for her.

Now, I do believe the theory about the vehicle being discovered on the property before it was "officially" discovered during the search. This stands alone, because it doesn't really confirm the guilt or innocence of SA.....I don't have an opinion on that part yet.

I saw this and thought I'd share. Please remove if not allowed.... https://www.yahoo.com/tv/cold-case-expert-thinks-making-020034799.html

I watched a youtube video on the EWE theory yesterday. Very interesting. There is also a pic of an older man at a press conference that Cameron says might be EWE. New twist.

Not really and alternate theory per se, but I've been wondering if Teresa's ex-boyfriend ever junked a car at the Avery junkyard. Just wondering if he would be familiar with the layout, etc. I'm not sure if there is any way to find this out, but it would be interesting to know.

stephsb said:

Agree that IF this was a rape/murder it's unlikely two people were involved in the rape/murder (group sexual assaults happen, but are pretty rare) but I'm not convinced another party wasn't knowingly involved after the fact.

I'm not a huge fan of the BD/ST theory (although I do believe it's definitely a valid theory worth considering) because I feel the window for the murder to happen is really narrow if we involve BD. Blaine and Brendan initially stated they woke Bobby up at 345. That gives him from 4-5 to commit the rape/murder, hide the body, and get cleaned up as he was back at the house at 5. Also, who burned the body? BD is back at home at 5, and spends the next 3 hours sleeping/watching tv (per his statement) ST is in GB w. Barb from 530-730

If Steven didn't do this (and I'm not 100 percent ready to rule him out btw) then I think the best suspect would be CA. While ST/BD do have suspicious alibis that should be probed further, they are accounted for during significant portions of the night, which narrows the timeline. The timeline for CA remains wide open. Until someone can pin down his specific locations during the 245-5 time period, he's the #1 alternate suspect in my book. He knew Teresa was there, he knows the property well/can access everything on it easily, has a history of aggressive behavior w. Women customers, and had a violent, volatile relationship with his ex-wife, w. Multiple incidents of violent behavior, including violation of domestic abuse injunction, threats, stalking, preventing her from calling LE, and forcible rape.

Would like to add that assuming CA did not murder Teresa, I believe he knows something and/or aided after the fact. His house was at too central of a location to see nothing if he was in it alone all night like he said (his reason for having no alibi was he lives by himself) Brendan states repeatedly they drove the RAV4 past his house and that he "probably knew". He also sees Steven and CA together in the garage the day after the murder talking and working on a car, which LE immediately tells him Ian true because it doesn't fit their narrative. He was very involved in this from the beginning, and I just don't buy that he knows nothing. Someone on that property knows something and saw something, IMO


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If Bobby was woken up at 3:45, that shoots a hole in his testimony that he went deer hunting around 2:45 or so.

If CA is involved, it makes the 5-minute cell call between SA/CA around 5:55 pm or so important. We know that SA was speaking to Jodi on his
house phone at 5:36. CA might have been out by the gravel pit and the call from SA to CA might have been to check and see if all was quiet out there and what the next steps might be in disposing of TH.

As far as Brendan's statements about the RAV4 being driven past the house ... in which interrogation did he say that as I can't find it anywhere ?

BlueShoe said:

Not really and alternate theory per se, but I've been wondering if Teresa's ex-boyfriend ever junked a car at the Avery junkyard. Just wondering if he would be familiar with the layout, etc. I'm not sure if there is any way to find this out, but it would be interesting to know.

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At the trial it is mentioned that , TH mentioned doing work at the Avery junk yard ,in "Guess where I was sent '' kind of way . I have think this was probably something she mentioned other to people as well. Ryan and Scott included. Then Ryan talks about using map quest and using it for the search. I think if TH did mention it and he is the type of person ,like us I might even do. He very well could have looked the property before TH went missing just because it came up in conversation ,they might have even done it together as she mapped her photo shoots on her laptop.

Sustained said:

If Bobby was woken up at 3:45, that shoots a hole in his testimony that he went deer hunting around 2:45 or so.

If CA is involved, it makes the 5-minute cell call between SA/CA around 5:55 pm or so important. We know that SA was speaking to Jodi on his
house phone at 5:36. CA might have been out by the gravel pit and the call from SA to CA might have been to check and see if all was quiet out there and what the next steps might be in disposing of TH.

As far as Brendan's statements about the RAV4 being driven past the house ... in which interrogation did he say that as I can't find it anywhere ?

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I'll try to dig out the correct passage, but it is in the first statement on what I believe is 2/29, although it is mentioned in the others as well. He's talking about driving past Chuck's house to dump the RAV4 in the pit.


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Soulmagent said:

At the trial it is mentioned that , TH mentioned doing work at the Avery junk yard ,in "Guess where I was sent '' kind of way . I have think this was probably something she mentioned other to people as well. Ryan and Scott included. Then Ryan talks about using map quest and using it for the search. I think if TH did mention it and he is the type of person ,like us I might even do. He very well could have looked the property before TH went missing just because it came up in conversation ,they might have even done it together as she mapped her photo shoots on her laptop.

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This testimony "Guess where I was sent" was given by her Mentor and Partner TP. TP also state he called TH on Tuesday, Wed, And Thurs, and her VM was full every time. Could he have been the one deleting voice mails? It is TP who calls TH's mom that Thursday that got the ball rolling in her missing persons report. I notice he is very what is the word I want to use. Impressed, but more than that. He sees her as he sees himself, passionate about her job. He hasn't see passion like that in a long time. He even hired her on, where it sounds like after internships he does not normally do. He eventually gives her some space in his studio for her to start her Photography by Teresa business. Do you think he had some sort of CRUSH on TH? If so would there have been reason to ask him for his alibi the day of Oct 31. He mentions that TH does these shot on Monday usually when his and her studio is closed. He states he was concerned that she had taken on Auto Trader and what was just Mondays was becoming Thursday and Saturday shots as well. He was concerned she was burning the candle at both ends. Could he have been Jealous of all the business she was getting that was taking her away from the office they shared? He testified to her getting what seemed to be like harassing phone calls that TH seemed to be ignoring. He was all prepared to tell the person off if she would only give him the number. That is a little weird to me too.

Sustained said:

If Bobby was woken up at 3:45, that shoots a hole in his testimony that he went deer hunting around 2:45 or so.

If CA is involved, it makes the 5-minute cell call between SA/CA around 5:55 pm or so important. We know that SA was speaking to Jodi on his
house phone at 5:36. CA might have been out by the gravel pit and the call from SA to CA might have been to check and see if all was quiet out there and what the next steps might be in disposing of TH.

As far as Brendan's statements about the RAV4 being driven past the house ... in which interrogation did he say that as I can't find it anywhere ?

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I'm not clear as to why the defense team did not recall Bobby Dassey to the stand after Blaine testified that he and Brendan saw TH after they got off the school bus @ 3:40 or so. Certainly, Bobby must have been lying and did not go hunting that day if he got up @ 3:45 PM. Sunset was at 4:45 and no one would go to all the effort of getting your hunting gear together for 30 mins or so.

Sustained said:

I'm not clear as to why the defense team did not recall Bobby Dassey to the stand after Blaine testified that he and Brendan saw TH after they got off the school bus @ 3:40 or so. Certainly, Bobby must have been lying and did not go hunting that day if he got up @ 3:45 PM. Sunset was at 4:45 and no one would go to all the effort of getting your hunting gear together for 30 mins or so.

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Refuting Bobby's testimony & alibi would also invalidate ST's alibi as well.

AC sure was a busy boy.

- Taking a car key that was TH's valet Toyota key.
- Getting whoever gave him the key to stay silent about it for 10 years so far
- Removing 2 license plates from TH's SUV
- Crumpling the license plates
- Putting those license plates into a locked station wagon that was near SA's trailer
- Wiping TH's key down and getting SA skin cells via sweat on the key
- Managing to not get any fibers from finding something with SA's sweat on it and rubbing it on said key nor possible DNA from anyone else, nor fibers from his own clothing.
- Putting the key somewhere that it won't be found until he and Lenk are ready for it to be found in SA's bedroom.

Madeleine74 said:

AC sure was a busy boy.

- Taking a car key that was TH's valet Toyota key.
- Getting whoever gave him the key to stay silent about it for 10 years so far
- Removing 2 license plates from TH's SUV
- Crumpling the license plates
- Putting those license plates into a locked station wagon that was near SA's trailer
- Wiping TH's key down and getting SA skin cells via sweat on the key
- Managing to not get any fibers from finding something with SA's sweat on it and rubbing it on said key nor possible DNA from anyone else, nor fibers from his own clothing.
- Putting the key somewhere that it won't be found until he and Lenk are ready for it to be found in SA's bedroom.

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How do you know it was just AC ?

Also hard to get around the propane truck driver's testimony about seeing a green SUV leaving the Avery property around 4:00. Especially
since the propane filling station is right at the end of Avery Road and is where TH would have exited the property.

Top circle is filling station, bottom left is SA's trailer. Avery Road is a dead end as well ...

Here's my theory:

At least one person and possibly more than one person gave a time estimate that is about an hour off of other people's time estimates of what they remembered occurring or seeing at the Avery Salvage Yard on Oct 31, 2005. The time change from the night before could be one factor that created time confusion. Or maybe one side or the other is totally lying. I'm going to go with some were correct on the time and others were mistaken (but thought they were correct or else just guesstimated).

TH shows up to the Avery yard somewhere within 20 to 30 min or so of when she claimed to be "on her way."

B Jasey does not come out to meet her, instead it's Steve Avery.

TH takes the pictures as she did at the previous appointments that day.

Steve Avery gets her to come into his trailer or near his trailer. She has given him the copy of Auto Trader and the other stuff she hands out. Perhaps Avery gets her to come closer to him so he can pay her (or uses this as a reason to get her closer).

Avery 'kidnaps' TH, which is the unlawful prevention of someone leaving. He is able to keep her from leaving and no one sees or hears anything (unless you believe parts of BD's story about getting the mail).

Something then happens... TH is incapacitated and made to be unconcious.

Avery's rifle with 22 caliber bullets is fired, with 2 bullets hitting TH's head. Perhaps additional shots are fired. This didn't happen inside the trailer, so there's no blood in the trailer.

At some point that afternoon Avery gets a cut on the third finger of his right hand. It's deep enough to bleed.

TH's SUV is moved so it's no longer sitting where it was when TH arrived at the Avery Yard. The SUV is eventually moved to its final resting place along the ridge and several items are placed around and on it to obscure it. Avery was in that SUV and (unintentionally) left blood from an injured finger. TH's blood is in that SUV as well. An injured or dead TH was in that SUV at some point that afternoon.

The license plates are removed and put in a vehicle near Avery's trailer. That vehicle is then locked.

Avery enlists the help of his mentally challenged nephew to help clean a particular area of the garage. They use chlorine bleach, some of which splashes onto the pants BD is wearing, which he later hands over to police. Avery also uses other substances to clean this area in the garage (which BD knows about because he was there).

Avery starts fires in his fire pit and in at least one burn barrel.

Avery does something with TH's body to reduce it down to charred bones (although not entirely because some tissue still existed on one of her tibia bones). Most of TH's bones are in the fire pit, with some in the burn barrel and 1 or 2 elsewhere in the quarry.

Clothes TH was wearing are burned in the fire pit.

The sheets that were on SA's bed are burned as well.

TH's personal effects (purse, phone, camera) are thrown into the burn barrel at some point.

The person who moved TH's SUV from the front of Avery's trailer to its eventual parked spot on the ridge had possession of TH's key. They put the key somewhere in SA's bedroom, perhaps tucked away in something else, but not sitting right out in the open.

The rest is the stuff that occurs after TH is reported as missing... searches, police and volunteers en masse. Crime scene is what it is and the evidence is what it is. Humans have made some mistakes which allows the defense to introduce lots of potential conspiracy points to explain away the evidence.

SA claims from the beginning he's being framed.

BD exhibits some behaviors that trouble his young cousin and she talks about those behaviors and things BD allegedly told her about what was troubling him. BD has seen something that Oct 31 night and it starts to come out. However, BD is not protected and some of the info he claims is not accurate or was suggested to him. BD implicates himself in the crime against TH as well as SA. BD's exact role is probably less than what the detectives thought.