Theories

Richard said:

I have met quite a few kids who are older than 12 and who are clueless as to telling time - or being on time.

In this case, however, I still think that it was more likely a misstatement by the boy, or a misunderstanding by the reporter as to the actual time his encounter with the girls took place.

Another possibility could be that questions could have been confusing. For instance, the boy MIGHT have said some thing like, "I got up, ate breakfast, went to my friend's house, played basketball, and jogged to the mall, passing the girls on the way." If asked what time that was, he might have said "7:30" in response, because that was when the sequence started (at 7:30AM).

Regardless of what was said, in the end, the police ignored the boy's information.

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A 12 year old can tell night from day...MOO

David would be at the top of my list of persons to interview regarding what he saw and when he saw the girls. The story of him seeing them at 7:30 PM is so far out of sequence from what others have reported seeing that it just does not fit.

Other sightings of the girls that day were corroborated by a second eyewitness who either saw them at the same time, or in the same vicinity within a small time interval. David's story (as stated in the Washington Star article) stands alone and is much later than all other sightings of the girls. In fact, by the time this article appeard, MCP had already expressed doubt about the sighting report in a press briefing.

If we accept the 7:30 PM sighting as absolutely correct and accurate, we are stuck with trying to determine where the girls were from between 2:30/3 PM and 7:30 PM. A period of between 4 and a half and 5 hours.

By all accounts, they did not make it home at the agreed upon time. They did not visit their neighbors the Gangas family (whom Kate had promised to call) and they did not visit the lady with the new baby (whom Kate had promised to visit that afternoon). Three missed appointments.

IF David actually saw the girls after dark around 7:30 PM headed TOWARD the Mall, one would have to conclude that they had been held for several hours in Kensington in the vicinity of Drumm, Devin, and Faulkner roads, managed to escape, and were again caught before reaching the safety of the Mall, only to go missing again. While this scenario is possible, it is highly unlikely.

But as unlikely as it may be, it is something which should be investigated and resolved.

Richard....

I agree to a point....but this is what I don't understand.

I do not feel that he would have worn a Hawaiian shirt or a cowboy hat, or a unique fur coat, biker leather, or a police uniform - or anything which would attract almost anyone's attention and which might cause them to remember him, or even approach and interact with him.

As a pedophile on the hunt, he would want to interact with a targeted child, but on his own terms. He would not want an adult to approach and speak to him.

He was in a suit...carrying a briefcase......holding a microphone between 2 young girls and asking them questions. That screams...."hey...look at me!!! I'm a reporter and interviewing these girls." It wasn't a "blend in" outfit and his behavior made people, like Jimmy and friend...as well as the others you've mentioned from different malls....remember him. I think people saw TRM....but not that day....and if he thought that he blended...he was confused.

To use a jazz music term, I think that he knew the theme in advance and simply "played it by ear", changing his plan on the fly as necessary.

I couldn't agree more.

Richard said:

David would be at the top of my list of persons to interview regarding what he saw and when he saw the girls. The story of him seeing them at 7:30 PM is so far out of sequence from what others have reported seeing that it just does not fit.

Other sightings of the girls that day were corroborated by a second eyewitness who either saw them at the same time, or in the same vicinity within a small time interval. David's story (as stated in the Washington Star article) stands alone and is much later than all other sightings of the girls. In fact, by the time this article appeard, MCP had already expressed doubt about the sighting report in a press briefing.

If we accept the 7:30 PM sighting as absolutely correct and accurate, we are stuck with trying to determine where the girls were from between 2:30/3 PM and 7:30 PM. A period of between 4 and a half and 5 hours.

By all accounts, they did not make it home at the agreed upon time. They did not visit their neighbors the Gangas family (whom Kate had promised to call) and they did not visit the lady with the new baby (whom Kate had promised to visit that afternoon). Three missed appointments.

IF David actually saw the girls after dark around 7:30 PM headed TOWARD the Mall, one would have to conclude that they had been held for several hours in Kensington in the vicinity of Drumm, Devin, and Faulkner roads, managed to escape, and were again caught before reaching the safety of the Mall, only to go missing again. While this scenario is possible, it is highly unlikely.

But as unlikely as it may be, it is something which should be investigated and resolved.

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Not so much that they had been held captive for those missing hours...they were young girls, on spring break. I believe that they may well have gone someplace in the neighborhood. Maybe to an unamed friend's house,and that friend has never come forward.After all, the "old man " was silent for 30 years about seeing the girls that afternoon...actually, given the age of the two girls, they may well have been interested in boys. Or one of them may have been interested in a specific boy...

If they did head back to the mall after dark, I believe that is when things went wrong for them...MOO Could well have accepted a ride from someone they knew. MOO

Motherof5 said:

Richard....

I agree to a point....but this is what I don't understand.

I do not feel that he would have worn a Hawaiian shirt or a cowboy hat, or a unique fur coat, biker leather, or a police uniform - or anything which would attract almost anyone's attention and which might cause them to remember him, or even approach and interact with him.

As a pedophile on the hunt, he would want to interact with a targeted child, but on his own terms. He would not want an adult to approach and speak to him.

He was in a suit...carrying a briefcase......holding a microphone between 2 young girls and asking them questions. That screams...."hey...look at me!!! I'm a reporter and interviewing these girls." It wasn't a "blend in" outfit and his behavior made people, like Jimmy and friend...as well as the others you've mentioned from different malls....remember him. I think people saw TRM....but not that day....and if he thought that he blended...he was confused.....

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You are describing the Tape Recorder Man (TRM). While what you say is accurate, I would like to stress that the theory I presented (and to which you refer) was NOT based on the Tape Recorder Man or any other specific suspect.

I only mentioned TRM in passing to indicate that his ACTIONS might fit the profile in one small part of my scenario - that being the possiblility that the abductor might attempt a casual contact with the victims prior to the abduction.

In developing and stating my theory, I tried to stress the What, Where, When, and How of the problem, leaving out the Who and Why. The Why is implied: I feel that the perpetrator was a pedophile and abducting children is "what he does". The Who question is open for discussion.

Although I view TRM's actions that day as very suspicious, and consider him to be a potential suspect, I have listed many more potential suspects in other threads of this topic. Any one of them might fit into the scenario I presented on this thread. And, while any of the named potential suspects might have been the TRM, I have always listed the unknown TRM as a separate suspect and have NOT linked him to any named individuals in my writings on the subject.

On the subject of clothing, I stated my opinion that the perpetrator of this crime was a serial offender, and that he separated his criminal activities from his day-to-day occupation and routine by dressing differently when hunting victims than he would dress at other times.

He may have been doing this as a disguise, but more likely was "dressing up" for what he considered a special occasion. He may have considered himself "taking on a persona" like an actor does.

The abductor would not have wanted to attact attention to himself. He would not want to cause someone to notice , watch, or remember him.

I never said that he was dressing to "blend in". Although that is certainly a possibility. A person like the abductor is - by his very nature - different from most other people, a fact which MIGHT show in his usual choice of clothing. Also, he might have a job requiring a specific type of clothing that would make him stand out at the mall. In those cases, he might choose an outfit which HE THINKS "blends in".

liz b. said:

Not so much that they had been held captive for those missing hours...they were young girls, on spring break. I believe that they may well have gone someplace in the neighborhood. Maybe to an unamed friend's house,and that friend has never come forward.After all, the "old man " was silent for 30 years about seeing the girls that afternoon...actually, given the age of the two girls, they may well have been interested in boys. Or one of them may have been interested in a specific boy...

If they did head back to the mall after dark, I believe that is when things went wrong for them...MOO Could well have accepted a ride from someone they knew. MOO

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True, the girls might have been visiting someone else in the neighbor for 4.5 to 5 hours, but isn't it more likely that they would have been heading home rather than back to the mall at 7:30 PM?

Most accounts of the girls were that they were reliable and punctual when it came to returning home by supper time.

Also, by 7:30 PM, John Lyon was driving around the neighborhood roads looking for the girls, and by 8PM, the police and parents were calling all of their friends and neighbors to see if anyone had seen them.

In the days and weeks that followed, police went door to door asking questions. If someone in the neighborhood had seen or been with them that afternoon, it was not simply a case of them not coming forward, they would have had to lie to police about NOT seeing them.

The girls had three potential destinations when headed home that afternoon around 3PM:

1. Home, as that was the time they intended to arrive.
2. The home of their neighbors, the Ganas family, as Kate had spoken with her friend and said that they could get together after 3PM.
3. The home of a neighbor lady who had recently had a baby, whom Kate had promised to visit that afternoon.

They did not make any of these "appointments" by 3PM.

Richard said:

True, the girls might have been visiting someone else in the neighbor for 4.5 to 5 hours, but isn't it more likely that they would have been heading home rather than back to the mall at 7:30 PM?

Most accounts of the girls were that they were reliable and punctual when it came to returning home by supper time.

Also, by 7:30 PM, John Lyon was driving around the neighborhood roads looking for the girls, and by 8PM, the police and parents were calling all of their friends and neighbors to see if anyone had seen them.

In the days and weeks that followed, police went door to door asking questions. If someone in the neighborhood had seen or been with them that afternoon, it was not simply a case of them not coming forward, they would have had to lie to police about NOT seeing them.

The girls had three potential destinations when headed home that afternoon around 3PM:

1. Home, as that was the time they intended to arrive.
2. The home of their neighbors, the Ganas family, as Kate had spoken with her friend and said that they could get together after 3PM.
3. The home of a neighbor lady who had recently had a baby, whom Kate had promised to visit that afternoon.

They did not make any of these "appointments" by 3PM.

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All true...did the old man lie to the police about NOT seeing them, I wonder ? And if they were hanging out someplace in the neighborhood, they may have actually been outside ? MOO

I could have sworn that their mother had said that they were not always punctual ? MOO

The appointments were probably very loose, MOO. Maybe they would go that day,maybe another...it was a vacation week,after all...

liz b. said:

All true...did the old man lie to the police about NOT seeing them, I wonder ? And if they were hanging out someplace in the neighborhood, they may have actually been outside ? MOO

I could have sworn that their mother had said that they were not always punctual ? MOO

The appointments were probably very loose, MOO. Maybe they would go that day,maybe another...it was a vacation week,after all...

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I wish that I knew the answers, but unfortunately we have only the questions.

I do not know what the story was with Mr. Mann who lived on the corner of Drumm and Devin. I do not know if he was ever questioned by police or if so what he told or didn't tell them regarding Sheila and Kate. I can tell you that his story never appeared in any police press briefings or any newspapers until he spoke with a reporter in 2005 and said that he had seen and waved to them that day in March 1975. In 2005 he was still living at the same address.

I posted a portion of a Washington Star article from April 1975 a few days ago. The entire article is in the thread on News Articles. It was written after some long interviews with Mrs. Lyon and other members of her family. In it she is quoted as saying that the 3PM time was discussed as a "good time" to be home by, but that it was not hard and fast.

She also stated that she was not really concerned about their absense at first because she thought that they might be visiting friends or taking in a movie. It was later at supper and when it got dark that she became very concerned about them because she said they were always home before dark/supper.

The article also mentions that they checked the girls's banks which were in their room and that no money had been taken from them - which indicated that they did not have much money with them.

Other articles mention that it was not like these girls to stay out late or to go places without checking in with their parents. Police immediately took their disappearance seriously because of their young ages and the fact that they were not in the habit of running off or staying out late.

My theory is Tape Recorder Man caught up with them outside the mall.

It's just such a strange coincidence that a man would be tape recording the girls and then later those same girls disappear.

I believe that after he recorded them in the mall, he found them outside the mall. Probably, as Richard has stated in his posts, out in the parking lot or a little further down the street.

The girls wouldn't have any reason to find him threatening- after all, he was a 'professional' and an adult- someone who was 'doing his job' at the mall.

This was a more naive time than now. Although I'm sure the girls were told to 'not talk to strangers', years ago the impressions of 'strangers' was someone dark and forboding... maybe offering candy. Certainly it wasn't someone in the mall 'doing their job'.

Outside the mall, Tape Recorder Man probably used a ruse as simple as telling them that the recording didn't come out right and could they re-do it real quick- in his car.

Or, he may have said that he wanted to tell their parents how good they did in the recording, or even play it for them... and he could give them a ride to their house to tell their parents all about it.

Of course, once in the car...

All of this is speculation, but I think that such an odd encounter, like the one they had with Tape Recorder Man, has something to do with them disappearing.

I'd like to offer a theory of how the girls could have been taken against their will.... in broad daylight....by a stranger....without anyone hearing or seeing anything. The girls cut through the woods taking the shortcut back to Jennings Rd. The nursing home parking lot would have been to their left...on the other side of the trees. The perp could have backed into a parking stall...popped the trunk but not opened it all the way. He might not have known the girls but he could have known the area and the habits of the neighborhood kids....such as the shortcut. He waits for a child to use the shortcut...steps out from the trees with a gun...tells the girls to come quietly. It would only be a few steps through the trees to the trunk of his car. That could be done in under a minute and he wouldn't have to try to control them or have them be seen while he's driving because he used the trunk. This can be done and has been done. Sisters older than Sheila and Kate went quietly.

http://www.clpex.com/Articles/Newz/2002/2002-08-14.htm

Evonitz was too young to have taken Sheila and Kate but he has proven how easily it could have been done and his victims weren't even walking through a wooded area.

Motherof5 said:

I'd like to offer a theory of how the girls could have been taken against their will.... in broad daylight....by a stranger....without anyone hearing or seeing anything. The girls cut through the woods taking the shortcut back to Jennings Rd. The nursing home parking lot would have been to their left...on the other side of the trees. The perp could have backed into a parking stall...popped the trunk but not opened it all the way. He might not have known the girls but he could have known the area and the habits of the neighborhood kids....such as the shortcut. He waits for a child to use the shortcut...steps out from the trees with a gun...tells the girls to come quietly. It would only be a few steps through the trees to the trunk of his car. That could be done in under a minute and he wouldn't have to try to control them or have them be seen while he's driving because he used the trunk. This can be done and has been done. Sisters older than Sheila and Kate went quietly.....

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Your theory has some good elements to it, and might explain how the girls disappeared.

It would have to be based on the perpetrator knowing exactly where the path went and that the girls would be using it on their walk home, and knowing their time schedule fairly accurately.

There would be an elevated risk factor in him using the Nursing Home grounds as his ambush point. It would be obvious to him that someone might see him from one of the many windows looking out on the parking lot. More chance of someone sitting and looking out a window here than from one of the houses along the girls' probable track. And the longer he had to wait, the more chance of being seen.

A vigilent grounds keeper was mentioned by someone in a post. There would have been the chance of him seeing someone hanging out at the parking lot.

Since the pond on the property was later searched by police divers, the grounds keeper would definitely have been in contact with the police. He may have been questioned by police and certainly would have had the opportunity to mention anything that he saw which he thought was suspicious.

Your scenario is certainly possible. An abductor could have used a gun or simply some ruse to get them into his vehicle.

I think it is very possible that the girls were abducted close to the Nursing Home. I would suggest, however, that a better place for him to have waited would have been on the other side of the Nursing Home pond - closer to the Drumm and McComas intersection.

This would have offered three advantages over the Nursing Home parking lot:

First, If he were parked on Drumm, facing across McComas toward Devin, he would be able to observe the the girls approaching him on Drumm.

Second, he would be somewhat less visible to possible witnesses. If, as the girls reached him, he was to see another car approaching or someone watching, he could call it off, and simply drive away.

Third, he could cover four possible routes that the girls might take when arriving at the intersection: left on McComas, right on McComas, straight on Drumm, or half left to enter the foot path. This way, he would not have to know exactly what their intended route was.

Richard said:

Your theory has some good elements to it, and might explain how the girls disappeared.

It would have to be based on the perpetrator knowing exactly where the path went and that the girls would be using it on their walk home, and knowing their time schedule fairly accurately.

There would be an elevated risk factor in him using the Nursing Home grounds as his ambush point. It would be obvious to him that someone might see him from one of the many windows looking out on the parking lot. More chance of someone sitting and looking out a window here than from one of the houses along the girls' probable track. And the longer he had to wait, the more chance of being seen.

A vigilent grounds keeper was mentioned by someone in a post. There would have been the chance of him seeing someone hanging out at the parking lot.

Since the pond on the property was later searched by police divers, the grounds keeper would definitely have been in contact with the police. He may have been questioned by police and certainly would have had the opportunity to mention anything that he saw which he thought was suspicious.

Your scenario is certainly possible. An abductor could have used a gun or simply some ruse to get them into his vehicle.

I think it is very possible that the girls were abducted close to the Nursing Home. I would suggest, however, that a better place for him to have waited would have been on the other side of the Nursing Home pond - closer to the Drumm and McComas intersection.

This would have offered three advantages over the Nursing Home parking lot:

First, If he were parked on Drumm, facing across McComas toward Devin, he would be able to observe the the girls approaching him on Drumm.

Second, he would be somewhat less visible to possible witnesses. If, as the girls reached him, he was to see another car approaching or someone watching, he could call it off, and simply drive away.

Third, he could cover four possible routes that the girls might take when arriving at the intersection: left on McComas, right on McComas, straight on Drumm, or half left to enter the foot path. This way, he would not have to know exactly what their intended route was.

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I agree with you but want to add that if this guy was waiting for "any" kid...he'd just need to know about the path through the woods and that the neighborhood kids used it. However...if he was waiting for Sheila and Kate he would need more information. I don't think it would be difficult to avoid being caught in the nursing home parking lot if this guy really knew what he was doing and it looks like he did. The man that took the Lisk sisters at gun point did it without the woods for cover. But everything you said is possible and makes sense to me.

This discussion regarding kids using shortcuts through wooded areas and parking lots near housing and shopping areas brings to mind another case from that same year and area - the murder of 14 year-old Kathy Lynn Beatty. I have always felt that it is connected with the missing Lyon sisters.

Only four miles up Georgia Avenue from Wheaton Plaza is the intersection of Georgia and Connecticut Ave. To the east is/was the K-Mart and to the west is Aspen Hill residential area. Immediately between them was Vitro Laboratories. The Vitro area is now occupied by a Home Depot, but the parking lot areas remain essentially the same.

On the evening of Thursday, 24 July 1975, Kathy was seen walking around her neighborhood. She went missing and was found early the next morning in a trash-strewn and rocky area next to the K-Mart parking lot, unconcious, savagedly beaten, and left for dead.

Although we do not know for certain how she got from home to that field, looking at a map and walking around the area, it is quite possible that, like the Lyon girls, she took a commonly used shortcut through a wooded area and then onto the grounds of the Vitro Laboratories property, intending to walk to K-Mart. The most direct route would have her passing very close to two Vitro parking lots. A vehicle parked in one of those parking lots, near a choke point, could have easily facilitated her abduction and murder.

Her attacker probably did not target her specificatly, but knew of local kids routinely using that route, and simply waited his chance.

I mention this because of the strong similarity between this and the possible scenario of the Lyon Girls being similarly abducted.

More information and discussion about Kathy Lynn Beatty's murder is available in her Websleuths threads in this forum and in the Cold Case forum.

I'm not sure what to think about Kathy's case mainly because she wasn't taken like Sheila and Kate. But then you look at how close she was to the Lyon's neighborhood and it seems like the cases must be related.

My two cents: I think Coffey did Kathy Lynn Beatty's murder. I don't think the person who took the Lyon sisters would have left a later victim's body where it could be so easily found.

I think the Lyon sisters were most likely abducted by a neighbor/neighbor's relative who lived in a home along their route. I don't believe they were abducted by car. I think the car sighting of girls bound and gagged is a red herring. I think the sister's bodies may have later been taken away from the neighborhood by car but if so they were concealed. My theory is that someone from the neighborhood who was at least somewhat known to the girls lured them into his home. (It could also possibly have been someone who was visiting/or staying with a relative in a home in the sister's neighborhood). I think the girls are probably still somewhere close to home, their bodies hidden in the home that was the site of the abduction. It's also possible that the neighbor/abductor later took the bodies to some other site that he has a connection with & controls so that he knew there was little likelihood that they would be found. Or maybe - like the Etan Patz case - the bodies were quickly disposed of in "trash" and ended up in a landfill. (But I would have to know more about the garbage collection routines and dumpsters etc. in the vicinity to consider this to be higher on my list of where I think their bodies might be.) I don't think the police adequately (or promptly enough) searched the homes in the neighborhood. Back then the concept of a harmless seeming neighbor being a secret monster was much less though of then a classic snatch and grab abduction by the proverbial boogey man. I think this was a crime of opportunity done by someone who had been watching all the girls in the vicinity and waiting for and hoping for a chance to strike. I don't see this as being a carefully planned scenario. If so, why plan to abduct TWO girls? That would seem to be a much more risky plan and would be more in line with someone who would then just dump the girls bodies anywhere first chance he got rather than conceal them so that they have still not been found all these years later.

Abduction inside the neighborhood by someone living or staying in one of the houses along the route is certainly a possibility. That possibility does not necessarily rule anyone out and - as you have pointed out - does not rule out the possible use of an automobile.

Regarding Coffey: Unforutnately, there is just a lot that we do not know about him or his stay in Montgomery County, Maryland. We do not know who he might have known or visited, or stayed with. We do not know even what kind of vehicle he had or when he actually first arrived in Maryland. It is possible that he had a relative or friend living in that Kensington neighborhood, but we do not know for certain.

Coffey was a serial offender before and after the Lyon sisters went missing, and when you study the cases/crimes that he was KNOWN to have committed, and those he was strongly suspected of, you do see patterns, but you also see some variations and differences. For instance, he often was involved in molestation or rape, but not murder. And his method of body disposal varied as well. He was devious and quite flexible in what he did.

It is also very possible that he acted under the influence of alcohol or drugs at times, and therefor might not have been as careful in his plans or actions as at other times. Thus, he COULD have abducted the Lyon girls and carefully hidden their bodies, and later abducted and attacked Kathy Beatty, then dumped her in the open.

In one case, the Lyon girls seemed to disappear completely indicating possibly a well organized plan, and in the other a very viscious and messy attack which left Kathy to live for 12 more days in a coma, indicating a disorganized perpetrator. Five or six beers could explain the different outcomes.

I would be quick to say that there is no solid evidence in either case that Fred Coffey committed either crime, but the coincidence of time frame, geographical proximity, victim similarity, situation (girls walking alone, along isolated paths, between home and shopping cernter) all tend to link the two cases together.

Also, the BIG coincidence that Coffey worked at Vitro Laboratories in Aspen Hill and would have parked his car in the parking lot through which Kathy Lynn Beatty would have had to walk on her way to K-Mart cannot be ignored. Vitro also had an office at Wheaton Plaza. So there is at least circumstantial evidence to suggest that Coffey was in the vicinity of both crimes at one time or another. The fact that he left town so quickly after Kathy was found ALIVE is also highly incriminating in my opinion.

I think the Coffey connection is a HUGE coincidence. I've just never felt like it was him...for many reasons. Besides....it's not like this case doesn't have other strange coincidences....2 different TRMen for example.

I agree with NocturnalLady, who theorized that the girls were lured into a home somewhere on their route home. In light of the recent rescue of Amanda Berry, Gina de Jesus, and Michelle Knight in Cleveland, the possibility of the girls being kidnapped and held by a neighbor should strongly be considered. I have also heard rumors of a child *advertiser censored* ring operating in the Wheaton/Kensington area at the time of the abduction. The rumor was that kids were taken to the basement or cellar of a home in the area and were molested and used for child *advertiser censored* films. There is at least one known child molester who lived in the area at the time. He played in a band with his teenaged son and had access to young people. I wonder if it would be worth investigating the backgrounds of home owners in the area at the time.

TonyHill said:

I agree with NocturnalLady, who theorized that the girls were lured into a home somewhere on their route home. In light of the recent rescue of Amanda Berry, Gina de Jesus, and Michelle Knight in Cleveland, the possibility of the girls being kidnapped and held by a neighbor should strongly be considered. I have also heard rumors of a child *advertiser censored* ring operating in the Wheaton/Kensington area at the time of the abduction. The rumor was that kids were taken to the basement or cellar of a home in the area and were molested and used for child *advertiser censored* films. There is at least one known child molester who lived in the area at the time. He played in a band with his teenaged son and had access to young people. I wonder if it would be worth investigating the backgrounds of home owners in the area at the time.

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I too have fears that there may be a connection to some kind of "ring" that was going on at the time in 1975.
I have suspicions it was in Manassas, VA or not far from there.

Since it has been pointed out, that even though it would seem that many crimes would be heard by others, perhaps seen and reported, sadly many may go unreported.

We know from past cases, that victims have been found even within the abductor(s)' own home!

Is it possible the girls may have lived locally for a time with the person(s) of interest or other relatives not yet named and then perhaps they were moved to another state to live decades with relatives of the person(s) of interest?