The Lab and Building

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Labrat, can you comment on this issue of emails and text(s) between RC and Annie? Do animal techs email and text grad students re: violations of lab protocols? Are violations normally handled this way? It seems too casual and with no oversight?
 
There is no THEORIES thread so thought this the most suitable thread for discussion of the disposal of her body in a chase. It is a response to a post found on the MOTIVE thread:

smokinggun said:
According to one of our maintenance staff, you can get into a mechanical wall chase with a butter knife. This was posted on the NH independent.
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Hi SG, We read that LE had 100 officers that searched that bldg thoroughly. The article mentioned they searched all the chases. I interpreted that to mean all the ones they could open up {with a butter knife ;} and look into. They found nothing in those first searches except the clothing in the dropped ceiling tiles.

We also read the body was moved once before it was put into the chase, and to a different room.

My thought is he went up to the area above his basement work area, maybe walked up a stairs to the 1st floor, and already knew of an access point to a chase that grounded in the basement. A chase goes vertically up all the way to the top floor from the bldg with entry from every floor.

Having seen diagrams of the chase construction, I believe he pushed her body through an opening into that chase and it dropped down, landing somewhat hard and maybe wedged in between a pipe or electrical conduit and the plywood facia board inside the chase. I think that plywood board obstructed the searchers view of her body caught above which is why she wasn't found on those initial searches. Then when they brought the dogs in on Sat they got an alert, finding her and keeping that a secret until Sunday.

Another reason I believe this could be the case is they had a difficult time retrieving her body. Because she wasn't right inside the easy to open door to the chase, but wedged many feet above in between the cables/pipework, and they had to remove part of the wall above to get her out.

It is only speculation, but I have tried to use all the little pieces of the puzzle we have read about. We shall see. xox
 
Emily Booth said:
Labrat, can you comment on this issue of emails and text(s) between RC and Annie? Do animal techs email and text grad students re: violations of lab protocols? Are violations normally handled this way? It seems too casual and with no oversight?
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This one I am not sure of. In my facility I think more likely not, they tend to report it to their supervisor and he calls the student/tech. I think it might be a language barrier issue here though. They certainly could if they were comfortable doing it, in fact we are all supposed to either address it in person or report violations. If it keeps happening, he'll call the Primary Investigator on the protocol. If things are not corrected the veterinarians get involved, and sometimes the IACUC. I have heard of violations so severe that mouse privileges were taken away for a period of time.

The thing that puzzles me- and granted I am not up to speed on all the news, is that I saw he told her to come over because mice were "dirty". If the cages were dirty, there would be no reason to call her- it was his job to clean them. If the mice were dirty because of overcrowding, well, that would be her job to do. In my facility, though, he would have "flagged" the cages, his supervisor would have emailed her with a CC to Dr. Bennett with a certain time period in which to do it. If it were not done within that time period, the animal tech would do it and Dr. Bennett would be billed for the service. Now, I don't know if this is handled differently at Yale. This could be the way they do it. Had she not died, I would have said maybe he knew she was going to be away for a while and he was doing her a favor by letting her know so it wouldn't blow up into a bigger issue while she was gone. Seeing how things turned out, maybe it was just an excuse to get her over there.

I am finding a few things hard to read. For instance he was right to tell someone they should be wearing foot covers- they should have been. I've had techs remind me to gown up properly- whenever I'm in a rush I forget the blasted head cover. I don't know if it was his tone or manner that offended that person, or if that person was one of those who thinks the rules don't apply to them. I have witnessed spectacular blow ups over these protocol issues.
 
He appeared very relaxed, very normal," the woman told Pinkston. "I didn't sense any anything different in his behavior from what I'd observed previously."

Only essential personnel could access the basement lab, by swiping key cards at multiple access points, Pinkston points out. The area was highly secured. And researchers typically worked alone.

The med student observed to Pinkston that it is "so secluded down there, soundproof, and nobody is ever looking for you, nobody questions when you go into a room for several hours and don't come out."

The "perfect place," Pinkston noted, for a murder.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/17/earlyshow/main5317185.shtml
 
At my school, we have an entire floor to house rodents. The floor is made up of suites that have about 6 rooms in each one. Each door only has a small window and some are even blacked out to help with light/dark cycles. Oftentimes, there is only one person in the entire suite. No one really pays attention to who goes in and out of the rooms. There are cameras outside each suite, but people in general don't really care. When we go down there to take care of our animals, we are basically on a mission and want to get out of there as soon as we can. It's not the most comfortable place to be.

At any rate, if Yale is anything like where I work, it'd be very easy to strangle someone and then hide whatever needs to be hidden.
 
missyjane77 said:
At my school, we have an entire floor to house rodents. The floor is made up of suites that have about 6 rooms in each one. Each door only has a small window and some are even blacked out to help with light/dark cycles. Oftentimes, there is only one person in the entire suite. No one really pays attention to who goes in and out of the rooms. There are cameras outside each suite, but people in general don't really care. When we go down there to take care of our animals, we are basically on a mission and want to get out of there as soon as we can. It's not the most comfortable place to be.

At any rate, if Yale is anything like where I work, it'd be very easy to strangle someone and then hide whatever needs to be hidden.
Click to expand...

I've never been in the situation with the suites. I've always had rooms that open off the same hallway. It sounds like the suites would provide much less risk of discovery.
 
missyjane77 said:
At my school, we have an entire floor to house rodents. The floor is made up of suites that have about 6 rooms in each one. Each door only has a small window and some are even blacked out to help with light/dark cycles. Oftentimes, there is only one person in the entire suite. No one really pays attention to who goes in and out of the rooms. There are cameras outside each suite, but people in general don't really care. When we go down there to take care of our animals, we are basically on a mission and want to get out of there as soon as we can. It's not the most comfortable place to be.

At any rate, if Yale is anything like where I work, it'd be very easy to strangle someone and then hide whatever needs to be hidden.
Click to expand...

Similar set-up here missjane. I have no problems believing this could happen. Depending on the size of her colony, she could have had an entire room to herself. R.C may have been the primary tech in charge of that room. I suspect he may have actually left the body in the room for some time while trying to figure out what to do. All the while, it would have been business as usual...creepy....
 
postdoc said:
Similar set-up here missjane. I have no problems believing this could happen. Depending on the size of her colony, she could have had an entire room to herself. R.C may have been the primary tech in charge of that room. I suspect he may have actually left the body in the room for some time while trying to figure out what to do. All the while, it would have been business as usual...creepy....
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In our facility, we have the suite set-up as described previously. However, we have multiple research groups using the same suite, and even multiple groups using the same room. Thus, it is a very busy suite and it would be difficult to get away with something like this in our suite.
 
In the article below, one of the comments was from a person who said that the chases in the buildings he's worked at required a magnetic badge (I'm guessing that means ID card) to open them up. So those actions are recorded, just like the opening of doors in the labs.

Since Amistad was a new building, and not an older one, did it or would it also have this feature for it's chases? That would make a lot of sense, to prevent any random person from opening up the chases and messing around inside.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/14/news/doc4aae5d57ae145175622155.tx

Chop wrote on Sep 14, 2009 11:50 PM:
 
tech_15.jpg


This is an example of a "fully loaded mechanical chase with HVAC ducts, electrical conduit and water lines."

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...hase&hl=en&rlz=1T4TSHB_enUS235US236&sa=N&um=1
 
Harmony2 said:
tech_15.jpg


This is an example of a "fully loaded mechanical chase with HVAC ducts, electrical conduit and water lines."

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...hase&hl=en&rlz=1T4TSHB_enUS235US236&sa=N&um=1
Click to expand...

I doubt the chase in which Annie's body was found looked like this. If there were any such HVAC ductwork in the chase in question, it could've and likely would've drawn and circulated at least some decomposition odor to any areas it serves.

I still suspect the chase where she was found was simpler and shallower, and adjacent to/behind a bathroom wall in a location that corresponds to where a toilet and sink may be located. It's obviously enclosed. I doubt if there's any big opening to it above the lay-in ceiling or else the decomposition odor would've been more pervasive. Access panel doors to such chases close fairly tightly, but they don't make the chase absolutely air tight.
 
Shlock Homes said:
In the article below, one of the comments was from a person who said that the chases in the buildings he's worked at required a magnetic badge (I'm guessing that means ID card) to open them up. So those actions are recorded, just like the opening of doors in the labs.

Since Amistad was a new building, and not an older one, did it or would it also have this feature for it's chases? That would make a lot of sense, to prevent any random person from opening up the chases and messing around inside.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/09/14/news/doc4aae5d57ae145175622155.tx

Chop wrote on Sep 14, 2009 11:50 PM:
Click to expand...

There are chases and there are chases. Some chases are more what I'd call mechanical rooms/closets and house, among other things, important electrical panels that include circuit breakers, etc. These are likely locked and not accessible to just anyone.
 
I've found a photo that looks like what I imagine is similar to the chase in question, but I can't cut and paste the image (copyright?).

If an image search is performed using the words "access panel to pipes", a photo for a plumbing company (j***bay***.net) appears. I imagine a wider and deeper version of a chase like this as a possibility for the one in which Annie was found. The opening would be covered with a metal access panel door.
 
PatientOne said:
I've found a photo that looks like what I imagine is similar to the chase in question, but I can't cut and paste the image (copyright?).

If an image search is performed using the words "access panel to pipes", a photo for a plumbing company (j***bay***.net) appears. I imagine a wider and deeper version of a chase like this as a possibility for the one in which Annie was found. The opening would be covered with a metal access panel door.
Click to expand...

I can't find what you described. You should be able to post a link to the web page that has it without infringing on copyright.
 
Someone who has worked in maintenance/construction at the Yale med school, and who claims to have familiarity with the building says you can open the chases with a butter knife:

http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/you_can_get_in.php

In the building I worked in, which was opened just a couple years ago and is in the same neighborhood, had chaces that were closed with what looked like small bolts - no swipe/card reader nearby.
 
Skigirl said:
Someone who has worked in maintenance/construction at the Yale med school, and who claims to have familiarity with the building says you can open the chases with a butter knife:

http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2009/09/you_can_get_in.php

In the building I worked in, which was opened just a couple years ago and is in the same neighborhood, had chaces that were closed with what looked like small bolts - no swipe/card reader nearby.
Click to expand...

I hope the police fingerprinted the door that opens into the chase. If he was careless about swiping his card, I imagine his fingerprints would be all over the door/cover.
 
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