Hi, GoatHairJones. Good points. According to Paik, Shannan wanted him to go to the pharmacy to get lubricants and a deck of cards. He refused. That a call was also made to CVS also indicates that such a visit was at least contemplated. A more local visit for other goods would make sense on an outside trip.
NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #9
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Hi, GoatHairJones. Good points. According to Paik, Shannan wanted him to go to the pharmacy to get lubricants and a deck of cards. He refused. That a call was also made to CVS also indicates that such a visit was at least contemplated. A more local visit for other goods would make sense on an outside trip.
MrsPC
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speaking of the 2am coke premise...
I don't understand the 2am prostitute premise...
why so late I wonder?
I need to go back & review at approx what time the other girls vanished
okay -
Gilbert arrived 2am - vanished 5am
Waterman 1:30am
Costello after 10:30pm
Brainard-Barnes ??
Barthelemy ??
It appears it was literally "last call" for all these ladies...
I don't understand the 2am prostitute premise...
why so late I wonder?
I need to go back & review at approx what time the other girls vanished
okay -
Gilbert arrived 2am - vanished 5am
Waterman 1:30am
Costello after 10:30pm
Brainard-Barnes ??
Barthelemy ??
It appears it was literally "last call" for all these ladies...
Hi, MrsPC and thanks. I'm not sure that the pattern holds. Melissa Brainard-Barnes was last seen in the afternoon. As for late night hook-ups, it would have an obvious appeal for methodical serial killers, but I can personally testify that it apparently also is favored by less abnormal men: When my block was a haven for hookers and their shoppers, there seemed to be two major peak periods: One, believe it or not, was right after work; the other, for several hours after eleven at night. (I think that studies show that late night *advertiser censored* viewing is also very popular.)
Also, I suspect that prostitutes, given their habits, tend to be late risers. I wouldn't be surprised if both sex sellers and consumers prefer appointments after bar visits and other entertainment.
MrsPC
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Back when I lived in the NYC area, the party didn't even truly begin until after 2 AM. And I wasn't into the whole hooking scene. Just sayin...
KPCrimeNY
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I agree he was hiring one girl. My opinion still remains to expect an escort/prostitute to come alone when strippers don't is crazy. Especially when we know that all of these GB4 girls had drivers/guards that went with them normally. SK got them to change that plan some how though.
I am not implying they needed someone to put anything forward. It's quite clear some of those girls may be independent. In my opinion it's also quite clear that some are not and someone is putting up many messages a day. I think it's easy to assume that the model looking girl ain't showing up at your house either.
KPCrimeNY
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A veteran coke-head may be prepared enough to go before 2am but, will probably need more sooner or later. lol
Speaking from experience of different scenes here on Long Island. It is needed and available all hours of the day and night.
So my opinion is that 2am isn't all that odd for partying with coke to be happening.
Hi, MrsPC. As always, you're sweet. My knowledge was entirely involuntary. I live in a basement apartment and sometimes the girls of the night would conduct their business just a few feet from my window. As far as I know, two of the three prostitutes who have lived in my building over the decades are dead: one from a heroin overdose and the other from AIDS contracted from needles or johns. On more than one occasion, I called 911 to get medical help for these poor women.
Hi, KPCrimeNY. I don't think that JB was crazy; I do think that he was a bit naive. On the other hand, I think that it's more logical that strippers rather than single appointment prostitutes are accompanied by escorts. The prospect of facing a roomful of raunchy, inebriated men cries out more obviously for protection. (Dropping by just one toga party convinced me that fraternity life was not for me.)
Putting up or renewing a message is easy. One of the early victims, as I remember, had friends cut-and-paste her message to bring it to the top of the Craigslist offerings.
I think that some of Shannan's pictures that I've seen make you look much more attractive than others. And I'm reminded by the advice of a relationship "expert", who told date-seeking women not to pick such a standout picture that the guy would be expecting too much.
Well-stated and I think that you're right.
KPCrimeNY
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I hear what you are saying and I'm not looking to argue.
I remember one of the girls doing that as well. I just don't buy that there isn't some pimping going on when you look at backpage or the old craigslist ads. It's especially the ones where the picture looks too good to be true. Looking at backpage I am going to believe the girl that takes a picture with her phone and posts it. Or the girl that takes it in the hotel room and looks like the girl next door. Not the one that avertisers "Latina Girls" or "Asian Girls" and shows the picture that has been obvioulsy Photoshopped and Airbrushed.
Hope that makes it clearer without making me look like a complete perv.
KPCrimeNY
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:twocents:I'll follow that up with some thoughts I have lately about SG.
I am not buying that she was working "independently" I think it's all a big deflection from the people she was working with/for.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't we get that info from her "boyfriend" that she met working for the business that went out of business? You know, the same loving boyfriend that made her have a metal plate in her jaw. Wasn't she being driven by the same guy that was driving her around for the same business that went out of business?
Out of business... New name? Not such and established business? Get where I'm going here? Am I on an Island all alone?
I will also throw this out there for the fun of it.
The more I am reading and thinking. I am starting to believe that SG's disappearance lead to finding the GB4. But, I am starting to believe that it may be one of the biggest coincidences ever. I don't think at this point that anybody is expecting to find SG on Long Island at all. May the SK be from OB? Possibly but I think linking SG to GB4 may be a big mistake.
:twocents:
I am not buying that she was working "independently" I think it's all a big deflection from the people she was working with/for.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't we get that info from her "boyfriend" that she met working for the business that went out of business? You know, the same loving boyfriend that made her have a metal plate in her jaw. Wasn't she being driven by the same guy that was driving her around for the same business that went out of business?
Out of business... New name? Not such and established business? Get where I'm going here? Am I on an Island all alone?
I will also throw this out there for the fun of it.
The more I am reading and thinking. I am starting to believe that SG's disappearance lead to finding the GB4. But, I am starting to believe that it may be one of the biggest coincidences ever. I don't think at this point that anybody is expecting to find SG on Long Island at all. May the SK be from OB? Possibly but I think linking SG to GB4 may be a big mistake.
:twocents:
goathairjones
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KPCrimeNY,
I agree with you 100%! IMHO, SG was NOT working independently!! For all of the reasons you state. Plus, a Jersey City pimp was arrested just before SG went missing last year for forcing girls to work as prostitutes. I really think that guy ordered her killing. And MP was in on it. He may have left Oak Beach without SG, but if that was the case, someone else from the Jersey City was there to retrieve her.
I think this is why SCPD can't solve it. If it was a individual perp in Suffolk or Nassau, they would have been all over him already. But an organized group out of NJ, they do not have the cooperation and evidence to move forward with the case. I think they need to let the FBI take the lead. But that won't happen until they find bodies that are connected to this case in another state.
internetgirl101
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Googling MP, I came across this...?
http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=LPLChw8AAACO4mVEIT__XjRUdYbahi6w
I don't know if this is THE MP..? or another person with the same name.
But it jumped out to me. I know it has the year 1997, but it seems he was interested in "trucks" "sex sells" and "fertilizer"..??
Also, I remember someone saying that MP is this guys's Americanized name. And that he uses another one. Can anyone provide a link? TIA
http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=LPLChw8AAACO4mVEIT__XjRUdYbahi6w
I don't know if this is THE MP..? or another person with the same name.
But it jumped out to me. I know it has the year 1997, but it seems he was interested in "trucks" "sex sells" and "fertilizer"..??
Also, I remember someone saying that MP is this guys's Americanized name. And that he uses another one. Can anyone provide a link? TIA
Theforeigner
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Here is a GREAT June 11, 2011 newsreport with LOTS of detailed information on what each of the 4 Gilgo/Oak beach victims did the day they disappeared.
Lots of the info in the newsreprot is new to me.
If this link have been posted before, please feel free to deleet it.
http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/did-gilgo-victims-let-their-guards-down-1.2950472
Did Gilgo victims let their guards down?
Published: June 11, 2011 9:52 PM
Lots of the info in the newsreprot is new to me.
If this link have been posted before, please feel free to deleet it.
http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/did-gilgo-victims-let-their-guards-down-1.2950472
Did Gilgo victims let their guards down?
Published: June 11, 2011 9:52 PM
internetgirl101
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If you can't access the Newsday article posted by TheForeigner(Thanks!) here are some quotes..very good info.
"..the women usually drew their own safety boundaries in a risky business, friends and family said. But just before their deaths, three did something out of character: Costello and Waterman both accepted "car dates," law enforcement sources said, and Brainard-Barnes apparently strayed from her normal workplace -- New York City hotels."
"Less is known about Barthelemy's case, although she, too, made a change in the months before her July 2009 disappearance. After disputes over money with her pimp, she had begun secretly advertising her services online and working independently, said her mother, Lynn Barthelemy."
ALC
"..Amber Costello stuck by a rule of self-preservation, her boyfriend and a roommate said: Don't get into a john's car."
"On Sept. 2, Costello abandoned that precaution and left her West Babylon home in a client's vehicle, they said. She took nothing with her -- no cellphone or purse -- and told no one where she was going."
"The last night she was seen alive, Costello had two lengthy conversations with a man who answered her Craigslist Long Island ad, said her roommate, David Schaller. She agreed to meet him in a car parked around the corner, Schaller said. The client would pay $450 for two hours or $1,500 if she spent the night with him."
"But the man set conditions: She was to bring nothing and tell no one where she went."
"Schaller told her not to go. "You can't do this," he said he told her. "At least take a phone so you can call me if something happens."
"Costello refused, he said. "That's not what he wants," Schaller remembers her saying. "She said it was big money."
"It's unclear why, but "something made her trust him," recalled Schaller, who said his cellphone was used for the conversation and that he overheard parts of it. "It was like she knew him."
"Her roommate Schaller, who helped her with clients, said he could recall her getting into a man's car only once -- after their session was over and he offered her a ride to a convenience store."
"She called me from the side of the Southern State Parkway. Her head was bleeding," Schaller recalled. "He had punched her three times in the face and left her on the side of the road."
"A Wilmington, N.C., native, Costello did not graduate high school, married and divorced twice and bounced around jobs in North Carolina and Florida before moving to New York in late 2009. Schaller, a friend of Costello's sister Kimberly Overstreet and then a commercial fisherman, said he paid for her plane ticket."
"Costello bought a prepaid cellphone and uploaded a Craigslist post advertising herself as a private dancer named Carolina.."
"That phone never stopped ringing," he said.
"Schaller allowed her to work from his home. He and Brodsky say they did not act as pimps for Costello. But one of them was usually in another room when she had clients over. There were rules: Clients came to her and paid $200 an hour; she went only as far as she wanted to; and if a client demanded more, she called out for Schaller or Brodsky. The men would make the client leave -- in some cases physically removing him."
MBB
"My sister said she would never go outside the five boroughs," said Melissa Cann, 27, of New London, Conn. "She would only do in-calls at hotels where she knew that the front desk had security and video cameras."
"On Friday, July 6, 2007, Brainard-Barnes left her children with their fathers, took a train to Manhattan, got a hotel room near Times Square and posted an ad on Craigslist, Cann said."
"Brainard-Barnes did not return to Connecticut the following Monday, as she had promised, Cann said. She did call friends that day -- her last contacts before going missing. "There was nothing distressful," Cann said."
"The next year, police contacted Cann and asked whether her sister had ever worked on Long Island. "Never," Cann replied."
"Police then told Cann a surprising detail: Her last cellphone call pinged a tower on the South Shore, Cann said."
MB
"Melissa Barthelemy had already had a brush with prostitution's dangers. A john once tried to mug her near her Bronx home with a knife. Barthelemy, who stood 4-foot-11 and weighed 95 pounds, grabbed the weapon and stabbed her attacker, her mother said."
"The Buffalo native moved to New York City in 2006 to make money to start a hair salon. A man convinced her prostitution offered quick cash and acted as her pimp. But the relationship was turbulent, Lynn Barthelemy said. After her disappearance, her mother found a letter Melissa wrote to him."
"It basically said that she was sick of giving her money up," Lynn Barthelemy said."
"Barthelemy began posting Craigslist ads without the pimp's knowledge, her mother said. He found out, and an altercation ensued, she said."
"Her last known phone call went to the pimp at 11:58 p.m. on July 10, 2009, but it appears from its short length -- less than a minute -- that he didn't answer, her mother said. She was last seen the afternoon of July 12, sitting on the curb outside her Bronx apartment."
MW
"Her maternal grandmother, Muriel Benner, who raised her and her brother Greg, warned of dangers, but Waterman replied she and her boyfriend, Akeem "Vybe" Cruz, had things under control."
"Akeem won't let anything happen to me," Waterman said, according to Benner. She told her aunt, Elizabeth Meserve, that Cruz was in a nearby room during each client session."
"... Haycock, 22, who said Waterman was her best friend, believes selling sex had a dual appeal for Waterman: love for Cruz, whom she wanted to please, and money for her daughter Liliana, then 3 years old."
"According to her family and the warrant, Waterman saw clients in hotels. She did not, family and friends said, get in clients' cars or go to their homes."
"Cruz and Waterman left Portland by bus on June 1, bound for Manhattan, police and family said. Waterman checked into a room at the Holiday Inn Express in Hauppauge. Cruz uploaded Craigslist ads, the warrant said, with a photo and cellphone number of a woman her family says is Waterman."
"On June 4, Waterman called Haycock with some news: Cruz wanted her to have his child and she would no longer have to work as a prostitute. "I never heard her as happy as she was that day," Haycock said."
"At 8 p.m. June 5, the hotel security camera captured Cruz and Waterman leaving the hotel together, said Waterman's mother, Lorraine Ela. At 8:30, Waterman entered the hotel alone, Ela said."
"Around 1:15 a.m., Waterman got a call from Cruz, Ela said phone records show. It's not known what if anything was said between them. Security video shows Waterman leaving the hotel at 1:30, police said. Ela said she has seen the video, which showed Waterman was alone."
"A law enforcement source said she had arranged a date without Cruz's knowledge and met the man in his car."
http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/did-gilgo-victims-let-their-guards-down-1.2950472
"..the women usually drew their own safety boundaries in a risky business, friends and family said. But just before their deaths, three did something out of character: Costello and Waterman both accepted "car dates," law enforcement sources said, and Brainard-Barnes apparently strayed from her normal workplace -- New York City hotels."
"Less is known about Barthelemy's case, although she, too, made a change in the months before her July 2009 disappearance. After disputes over money with her pimp, she had begun secretly advertising her services online and working independently, said her mother, Lynn Barthelemy."
ALC
"..Amber Costello stuck by a rule of self-preservation, her boyfriend and a roommate said: Don't get into a john's car."
"On Sept. 2, Costello abandoned that precaution and left her West Babylon home in a client's vehicle, they said. She took nothing with her -- no cellphone or purse -- and told no one where she was going."
"The last night she was seen alive, Costello had two lengthy conversations with a man who answered her Craigslist Long Island ad, said her roommate, David Schaller. She agreed to meet him in a car parked around the corner, Schaller said. The client would pay $450 for two hours or $1,500 if she spent the night with him."
"But the man set conditions: She was to bring nothing and tell no one where she went."
"Schaller told her not to go. "You can't do this," he said he told her. "At least take a phone so you can call me if something happens."
"Costello refused, he said. "That's not what he wants," Schaller remembers her saying. "She said it was big money."
"It's unclear why, but "something made her trust him," recalled Schaller, who said his cellphone was used for the conversation and that he overheard parts of it. "It was like she knew him."
"Her roommate Schaller, who helped her with clients, said he could recall her getting into a man's car only once -- after their session was over and he offered her a ride to a convenience store."
"She called me from the side of the Southern State Parkway. Her head was bleeding," Schaller recalled. "He had punched her three times in the face and left her on the side of the road."
"A Wilmington, N.C., native, Costello did not graduate high school, married and divorced twice and bounced around jobs in North Carolina and Florida before moving to New York in late 2009. Schaller, a friend of Costello's sister Kimberly Overstreet and then a commercial fisherman, said he paid for her plane ticket."
"Costello bought a prepaid cellphone and uploaded a Craigslist post advertising herself as a private dancer named Carolina.."
"That phone never stopped ringing," he said.
"Schaller allowed her to work from his home. He and Brodsky say they did not act as pimps for Costello. But one of them was usually in another room when she had clients over. There were rules: Clients came to her and paid $200 an hour; she went only as far as she wanted to; and if a client demanded more, she called out for Schaller or Brodsky. The men would make the client leave -- in some cases physically removing him."
MBB
"My sister said she would never go outside the five boroughs," said Melissa Cann, 27, of New London, Conn. "She would only do in-calls at hotels where she knew that the front desk had security and video cameras."
"On Friday, July 6, 2007, Brainard-Barnes left her children with their fathers, took a train to Manhattan, got a hotel room near Times Square and posted an ad on Craigslist, Cann said."
"Brainard-Barnes did not return to Connecticut the following Monday, as she had promised, Cann said. She did call friends that day -- her last contacts before going missing. "There was nothing distressful," Cann said."
"The next year, police contacted Cann and asked whether her sister had ever worked on Long Island. "Never," Cann replied."
"Police then told Cann a surprising detail: Her last cellphone call pinged a tower on the South Shore, Cann said."
MB
"Melissa Barthelemy had already had a brush with prostitution's dangers. A john once tried to mug her near her Bronx home with a knife. Barthelemy, who stood 4-foot-11 and weighed 95 pounds, grabbed the weapon and stabbed her attacker, her mother said."
"The Buffalo native moved to New York City in 2006 to make money to start a hair salon. A man convinced her prostitution offered quick cash and acted as her pimp. But the relationship was turbulent, Lynn Barthelemy said. After her disappearance, her mother found a letter Melissa wrote to him."
"It basically said that she was sick of giving her money up," Lynn Barthelemy said."
"Barthelemy began posting Craigslist ads without the pimp's knowledge, her mother said. He found out, and an altercation ensued, she said."
"Her last known phone call went to the pimp at 11:58 p.m. on July 10, 2009, but it appears from its short length -- less than a minute -- that he didn't answer, her mother said. She was last seen the afternoon of July 12, sitting on the curb outside her Bronx apartment."
MW
"Her maternal grandmother, Muriel Benner, who raised her and her brother Greg, warned of dangers, but Waterman replied she and her boyfriend, Akeem "Vybe" Cruz, had things under control."
"Akeem won't let anything happen to me," Waterman said, according to Benner. She told her aunt, Elizabeth Meserve, that Cruz was in a nearby room during each client session."
"... Haycock, 22, who said Waterman was her best friend, believes selling sex had a dual appeal for Waterman: love for Cruz, whom she wanted to please, and money for her daughter Liliana, then 3 years old."
"According to her family and the warrant, Waterman saw clients in hotels. She did not, family and friends said, get in clients' cars or go to their homes."
"Cruz and Waterman left Portland by bus on June 1, bound for Manhattan, police and family said. Waterman checked into a room at the Holiday Inn Express in Hauppauge. Cruz uploaded Craigslist ads, the warrant said, with a photo and cellphone number of a woman her family says is Waterman."
"On June 4, Waterman called Haycock with some news: Cruz wanted her to have his child and she would no longer have to work as a prostitute. "I never heard her as happy as she was that day," Haycock said."
"At 8 p.m. June 5, the hotel security camera captured Cruz and Waterman leaving the hotel together, said Waterman's mother, Lorraine Ela. At 8:30, Waterman entered the hotel alone, Ela said."
"Around 1:15 a.m., Waterman got a call from Cruz, Ela said phone records show. It's not known what if anything was said between them. Security video shows Waterman leaving the hotel at 1:30, police said. Ela said she has seen the video, which showed Waterman was alone."
"A law enforcement source said she had arranged a date without Cruz's knowledge and met the man in his car."
http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/did-gilgo-victims-let-their-guards-down-1.2950472
Hi, KPCrimeNY, there are prostitutes who are controlled by pimps, but Shannan certainly does not fit that bill. She handled her own calls, doled out the money, paid the rent, bought generous gifts for her family and friends, and was working on her exit strategy without apparent interference from her boyfriend, with whom she even went on movie dates. When her driver entered SG's house, he didn't strong-arm her to leave or force payment from the john; he sat down and tried to wait it out. By every account, Shannan was her own boss.
This is all a far cry from what I saw and have heard about traditional pimps. On my block, I saw some very dominant pimps who kept all the money their girls made, even searching their undergarments for stashed cash; and others who slapped them around for being lazy. Some streetwalkers who spoke little if any English seemed especially vulnerable.
As for your statement, about the coincidence of Shannan's disappearance and the four burlap-covered bodies, I think that you are right. On her manic run, Shannan was supercharged; by the time, she was overtaken by exhaustion and the realization that she was in the middle of nowhere without a ride home, she could have gone far. It's possible, as old resident Coletti suggested, she might have drowned in the jetties.
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