48 Hours Mystery Part 2 June 2012

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  • What proof do we have that any of the GB4 other than ACL were actually meeting with a John when they disappeared? We make this assumption but do we have any proof? Yes we do have proof. It has been documented over and over. The only one in question was Maureen.
  • Isn't it true that at least one of the GB4 were in touch with family or friends AFTER her last trick was over? That would be Maureen. . She wanted to go home and chances are she did one more date to get enough money to get home. A fatal mistake.
  • What proof do we have that there is a single killer of all four GB4? Isn't it remotely possible that there could be more than one killer? Highly unlikely but possible. When an SK works alone it's more likely he will get away with his murders for a longer period of time. The less anyone knows, the better for the SK. IMHO
 
The person responsible for disposing of the bodies may or may not like his job.

Perhaps he wasn't meant to or supposed to give them a decent burial.

What if he was supposed to dump them in the ocean, the bay or into some trash dumpster or trash dump site?

What if he wrapped them in the burlap as some kind of religious gesture and to give them some coverage as well as some protection from the elements?

Maybe he felt some remorse for how the woman had been treated and he used the one thing that he had readily available to him, the burlap, to give them some modicum of respect.

What if the person or persons responsible for their deaths didn't know that they were laid to rest in a more respectable manner than he/she/they had wanted or demanded?

What if someone knew they had been tossed like trash, knew where they were dumped and actually went back, wrapped them, and moved them to a place that he felt was a somewhat nicer place to leave them.

That burlap has a meaning either to the killer or the person who placed their bodies together on the shoreline (Bay Side.)
 
Nothing happened on that show. 48hrs knows as much about the case as any of us do.....which is nothing. What I do know is SCPD is not capable of doing this case.
 
Theforeigner said:
At 2:58 into the 48hours program, it was said about when SG was seen for the last time:

"...and is not seen again by anyone who is credible"

Does that mean that LE or somone else have information that somone NOT credible, have claimed they saw SG at a later time?
Click to expand...

Well, we DO have that cbs article in which Dr. Hackett allegedly said he saw Shannan running down the beach looking ill. Make of that what you will.
 
Mountain_Kat said:
Well, we DO have that msnbc article in which Dr. Hackett allegedly said he saw Shannan running down the beach looking ill. Make of that what you will.
Click to expand...

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/04...ch-for-bodies-off-l-i-in-serial-killer-probe/

"Gilbert, a prostitute from Jersey City, was last seen in May by Long Island doctor Peter Hackett, who said he saw Gilbert running at night near Oak Beach, looking both sick and distressed.

“These people need closure and we need to find this girl if she is alive,” he said."

You would have thought that when the reporter got this quote from him (above: "These people need closure...") that he would have taken the opportunity to clear up the other statement about seeing her looking both sick and distressed had he not actually made the statement.

A big part of this story that many on WS are missing is that over the course of events in Oak Beach we have statements from witnesses (and non-credible people who aren't actually witnesses "I saw her footprints in the sand heading that way") that illustrate the promotion of an agenda. There are documented statements from residents that show a complete change in their story, version of the events, and statements that are contradictory to facts we now have including but not limited to the location of SG's remains. Clearly, she wasn't running in the sand towards the water, and clearly she did not fall of the jetty, hit her head and drowned. These are some of the statements/speculation made by "witnesses".

In hindsight it is now easy to confirm that some "witnesses" were being intentionally deceitful.
 
Interesting that her personal belongings ended up behind CPH's house, but her body ended up closer to Ocean Parkway. Doesn't seem a stretch to me to surmise that her belongings and her body might have been dumped at different intervals. Let's say you are a serial killer who needs to keep momento's (or create dumpsite trophies)...you might dump the body off the side of a road you travel frequently, in order to feel superior each time you ride past it. Perhaps you also keep personal momento's of your victims. But if someone begins to look at you like YOU might be a serial killer (a spouse, for instance), you might well fly into a panic and get these personal momento's out of your physical possession. BUT, not TOO far...can't let them out of your sight, right?

Just some thoughts.
 
Mountain_Kat said:
Well, we DO have that cbs article in which Dr. Hackett allegedly said he saw Shannan running down the beach looking ill. Make of that what you will.
Click to expand...

But in fact, it was Coletti. So this is, in the urge to feed Ray's story one of those little glitches in that show saying, everyone who testified anything that doesn't support the "foul play" theory isn't credible at all. Which of course tells us about the credibility of that particular show.
 
truthspider said:
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/04...ch-for-bodies-off-l-i-in-serial-killer-probe/

"Gilbert, a prostitute from Jersey City, was last seen in May by Long Island doctor Peter Hackett, who said he saw Gilbert running at night near Oak Beach, looking both sick and distressed.

“These people need closure and we need to find this girl if she is alive,” he said."

You would have thought that when the reporter got this quote from him (above: "These people need closure...") that he would have taken the opportunity to clear up the other statement about seeing her looking both sick and distressed had he not actually made the statement.

A big part of this story that many on WS are missing is that over the course of events in Oak Beach we have statements from witnesses (and non-credible people who aren't actually witnesses "I saw her footprints in the sand heading that way") that illustrate the promotion of an agenda. There are documented statements from residents that show a complete change in their story, version of the events, and statements that are contradictory to facts we now have including but not limited to the location of SG's remains. Clearly, she wasn't running in the sand towards the water, and clearly she did not fall of the jetty, hit her head and drowned. These are some of the statements/speculation made by "witnesses".

In hindsight it is now easy to confirm that some "witnesses" were being intentionally deceitful.
Click to expand...

But we know, Coletti saw her later. He couldn't have seen her earlier than Hacket if Hackett saw her at all. Because that would mean, she broke though the time-space continuum. I guess, we can assume the basic laws of physics as credible? So my guess is, this reporter either forgot about Coletti or he messed up Coletti and Hackett.
 
Mountain_Kat said:
Interesting that her personal belongings ended up behind CPH's house, but her body ended up closer to Ocean Parkway. Doesn't seem a stretch to me to surmise that her belongings and her body might have been dumped at different intervals. Let's say you are a serial killer who needs to keep momento's (or create dumpsite trophies)...you might dump the body off the side of a road you travel frequently, in order to feel superior each time you ride past it. Perhaps you also keep personal momento's of your victims. But if someone begins to look at you like YOU might be a serial killer (a spouse, for instance), you might well fly into a panic and get these personal momento's out of your physical possession. BUT, not TOO far...can't let them out of your sight, right?

Just some thoughts.
Click to expand...

The idea is based on the assumption, that he had already three victims stashed away just a mile from his house and added later Amber Lynn Costello. Only, there is no case known in which an SK transported bodies to a clustered dump site and then only 1 mile. So this assumption is improbably at least in the first place.
Second part of the idea is, he kept all of her belongings. Which is not what SKs normally do. They keep single items that allow them to relive the event, not all of their belongings.
So put this all together: There is some chance, that a cover up for an accidental death has taken place. If so, this shows panic, but certainly not a kind of panic an experienced SK would fall in. Don't forget, we would talk about a psychopath in this case.
 
Hi Everyone,

Last night I watched the repeat of 48 Hours and jotted down a few things I had missed before:

1} Michael Pak was a 'business partner' of Shannan's, I had never heard of it referenced that way.
2} The victims could well have been repeat customers of this man who ended up killing them. That is why they let their guard down - like not taking cell phones with, walking down into an open hotel parking lot, etc.
3} It was stated someone walked back to the area where Shannan was found and the ground was so moist their feet sank into the moss. If that were the case I don't think her remains would be laid out flat and straight on the ground. She would have had her feet underneath her if she got caught in a 'quicksand' type of action of her weight on the moss.

On #3, I thought I saw a photo of her skeleton lying on the ground with officers around it. If she were put out there right after death I think the killer must have covered her remains until he was ready to have them found, when he exposed them. The flyover searches never showed a skeleton. Is this right?
 
scandi said:
Hi Everyone,

Last night I watched the repeat of 48 Hours and jotted down a few things I had missed before:

1} Michael Pak was a 'business partner' of Shannan's, I had never heard of it referenced that way.
2} The victims could well have been repeat customers of this man who ended up killing them. That is why they let their guard down - like not taking cell phones with, walking down into an open hotel parking lot, etc.
3} It was stated someone walked back to the area where Shannan was found and the ground was so moist their feet sank into the moss. If that were the case I don't think her remains would be laid out flat and straight on the ground. She would have had her feet underneath her if she got caught in a 'quicksand' type of action of her weight on the moss.

On #3, I thought I saw a photo of her skeleton lying on the ground with officers around it. If she were put out there right after death I think the killer must have covered her remains until he was ready to have them found, when he exposed them. The flyover searches never showed a skeleton. Is this right?
Click to expand...

Hey Scandi!!! :seeya: Gosh, it is good to have this forum back, and to have YOU in it!!! I remember discussions about the original searches for SG, but I do not recall EVER getting a clear, concise, timeline and/or map of WHERE they searched. This is something I have wanted for a long time now. If anyone has anything like this, I would be most appreciative.
 
Reannan said:
Hey Scandi!!! :seeya: Gosh, it is good to have this forum back, and to have YOU in it!!! I remember discussions about the original searches for SG, but I do not recall EVER getting a clear, concise, timeline and/or map of WHERE they searched. This is something I have wanted for a long time now. If anyone has anything like this, I would be most appreciative.
Click to expand...

Back at 'cha Reannan ;} It is great to see you here and have our 'LISKville' discussions at hand again. lol

I don't remember any links about the early searches at the place where Shannan was found. In the 48 Hours show they referred to it as a 'tidal wetland' I believe. That would be like the Salishan Spit area on the Oregon Coast. I didn't know that sea water intruded into that land in OB on a regular basis to classify it as tidal.

I too would like to revue the early LE searches there. Also to see a map that shows how the salt water seeps into that land, or really how the water traverses the land to end up behind those houses and pretty well adjacent to a highway!
 
I watched the A&E presentation of the LISK again last night as well.

They showed when LE found her possession and was putting them in bags, that she had tennis shoes. Michael Pak had said she put boots on in the SUV on the way to Brewer's house. There was also some reports she had on ballet slippers. But in this accounting of the events, they definitely showed black tennis shoes with white stripes down the sides.

I also got the impression from the program that these girls who left their phones behind knew this guy from before, that he was a repeat customer and that's why they felt comfortable enough not to take their phones.

And according to Melissa Bethalemy's sister Amanda, the caller told her he had killed her and was "going to watch her body rot." To me, this indicates that his dumpsite was important to him, that it was a place for him to visit to recall his crimes. I'm wondering how ticked off he was that it got discovered.
 
Oh my, we are again at SG is a LISK victim theories? Despite different disposal, despite witnesses, despite lack of evidence foul play even happened?
And even when focusing on the GB4? Did they know their johns? Likely, some were probably repeat customers. Did a homicidal john kill them at the xth date? Unlikely, nothing indicates, their last johns were identical or in case of MBB, she met even with one more john.
 
Peter Brendt said:
Oh my, we are again at SG is a LISK victim theories? Despite different disposal, despite witnesses, despite lack of evidence foul play even happened?
And even when focusing on the GB4? Did they know their johns? Likely, some were probably repeat customers. Did a homicidal john kill them at the xth date? Unlikely, nothing indicates, their last johns were identical or in case of MBB, she met even with one more john.
Click to expand...

Shannan was mentioned because we are talking about this program, and in it she was brought up in relationship to the other girls being discovered. I was talking about what clothing/shoes of hers that were found, because that has been bandied about here.

I do not believe that SG was a victim of LISK. And I believe there are two different killers of the GB4 and the OB6. Two different methods of disposal. Two different ways the bodies were treated after death. Once the other 5 bodies of the OB6 are identified, we will have a clearer idea of victimology.

I'm still stuck on why these girls let their guard down with whomever they were talking to, and ignored any precautions they usually took. DS suggested that it was like she knew who she was talking to, who she met that last night.
 
Seajay said:
Shannan was mentioned because we are talking about this program, and in it she was brought up in relationship to the other girls being discovered. I was talking about what clothing/shoes of hers that were found, because that has been bandied about here.

I do not believe that SG was a victim of LISK. And I believe there are two different killers of the GB4 and the OB6. Two different methods of disposal. Two different ways the bodies were treated after death. Once the other 5 bodies of the OB6 are identified, we will have a clearer idea of victimology.

I'm still stuck on why these girls let their guard down with whomever they were talking to, and ignored any precautions they usually took. DS suggested that it was like she knew who she was talking to, who she met that last night.
Click to expand...

There are only two who actually maybe let their guard down. MW anf ALC. Problem is, one of the pimps knew already what the other pimp said when he was making his statement. So, who is copying whom?
 
Peter Brendt said:
Oh my, we are again at SG is a LISK victim theories? Despite different disposal, despite witnesses, despite lack of evidence foul play even happened?
And even when focusing on the GB4? Did they know their johns? Likely, some were probably repeat customers. Did a homicidal john kill them at the xth date? Unlikely, nothing indicates, their last johns were identical or in case of MBB, she met even with one more john.
Click to expand...

Yep... nothing has proven to me that SG was NOT a victim of the LISK. She was definitely in the wrong place at the wrong time. For me, the witness statements, etc.... just tell me what was going on before she was found - which was MONTHS latter. I have yet to rule anything IN or OUT when it comes to what happened to SG.
 
Reannan said:
Yep... nothing has proven to me that SG was NOT a victim of the LISK.
Click to expand...

Yep, not even the absolute impossibility. I listed all the points in the SG's death ruled an accident thread, so I can save the repetition here. But then, hey, if you think, LISK suddenly became a moron with the IQ of a piece of veggie, because that is what a killer is who waits 18+ minutes while his intended victim talks on the phone with the cops, well, nothing, I can do about, right?
 
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