The case for murder

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jjenny said:
I sure wouldn't be surprised if that what they did. After all they stated everybody they interviewed was very cooperative and truthful. They apparently took his word about the voicemail message contents and build the whole suicide theory on the message that they don't even have.
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bbm

Astounding, isn't it??!!
 
To the Reinvestigation Reasons list, I would add that LE did not document nor release the total amount of tow rope used at the crime scene. (If the total amount is inconsistent with a standard tow rope of the same manufacturer, there's a missing piece of rope that was removed from the scene.)
 
jjenny said:
I sure wouldn't be surprised if that what they did. After all they stated everybody they interviewed was very cooperative and truthful. They apparently took his word about the voicemail message contents and build the whole suicide theory on the message that they don't even have.
Click to expand...

Astonishing indeed. Brings me back to these three questions:

  • Why did Adam Shacknai immediately conclude that Rebecca "hung herself," as per his text to Jonah?
  • Why did Jonah Shacknai immediately accept that Rebecca "killed herself" as per his call to Dina?
  • Why did LE in turn pursue such a lop-sided investigation?

What could cause these three things to happen in sync?

Could the document addressed to Jonah have been a statement about Dr. Peterson's speculation about Max being suffocated? And if so, how and when did it get there? If not, what could it have been? When did LE learn about the Peterson aspects?

That LE treated RZ body so disrespectfully because LE, however wrongly, assumed she was a child murderer, would explain (but not justify by any stretch of the imagination) some of their actions.

Any thoughts on what else could have been in the room, planted or not, that could have been so persuasive?
 
CalElliot said:
Astonishing indeed. Brings me back to these three questions:

  • Why did Adam Shacknai immediately conclude that Rebecca "hung herself," as per his text to Jonah?
  • Why did Jonah Shacknai immediately accept that Rebecca "killed herself" as per his call to Dina?
  • Why did LE in turn pursue such a lop-sided investigation?

What could cause these three things to happen in sync?

Could the document addressed to Jonah have been a statement about Dr. Peterson's speculation about Max being suffocated? And if so, how and when did it get there? If not, what could it have been? When did LE learn about the Peterson aspects?

That LE treated RZ body so disrespectfully because LE, however wrongly, assumed she was a child murderer, would explain (but not justify by any stretch of the imagination) some of their actions.

Any thoughts on what else could have been in the room, planted or not, that could have been so persuasive?
Click to expand...

Most excellent points. Have wondered about that document. Will we ever know what it is/was? The treatment of RZ was absolutely the most disgusting action on their part that in itself should require a new investigation. JMO I simply cannot find enough words to describe my feelings about their so-called "investigation."

Once again, JMO and MOO
 
CalElliot said:
Astonishing indeed. Brings me back to these three questions:

  • Why did Adam Shacknai immediately conclude that Rebecca "hung herself," as per his text to Jonah?
  • Why did Jonah Shacknai immediately accept that Rebecca "killed herself" as per his call to Dina?
  • Why did LE in turn pursue such a lop-sided investigation?

What could cause these three things to happen in sync?

Could the document addressed to Jonah have been a statement about Dr. Peterson's speculation about Max being suffocated? And if so, how and when did it get there? If not, what could it have been? When did LE learn about the Peterson aspects?

That LE treated RZ body so disrespectfully because LE, however wrongly, assumed she was a child murderer, would explain (but not justify by any stretch of the imagination) some of their actions.

Any thoughts on what else could have been in the room, planted or not, that could have been so persuasive?
Click to expand...

BBM

I hadn't considered that possibility before (the bolded text) as to why poor RZ's body was left exposed (and I agree it was totally disrespectful) in the courtyard for 12+ hours.

I think I'm going to :sick:
 
SmoothOperator said:
Does
Anyone else wonder why it was that the rope was tied inside the house to the bed and bedframe and not the balcony itself?? Why tie it off inside to drape all the way over the balcony?? I'm still stuck that one wouldve had to have known the exact measurements including the length needed to tie thru the bedframe and around the leg and knotted and it be exact.. A few inches off and she goes over the railing and straight down to the courtyard below.. No hanging because the rope was a few inches off.. But this was done precisely to a tee and on her first try was the exact length necessary to hang her.. Does that not baffle some??

Tying off to the balcony would have been simple math to ensure the rope was cut to the proper length to hang her.. The only measurement that would need to be known is that it was a 9th drop(9.2 to be exact).. That would be simple to surmise and tie off the rope accordingly but no it is done in the most dramatic fashion that simply and without a doubt would be mandatory to have the multiple precise measurements in order to have the correct length the very first time..

Anyone??
Click to expand...

Yes, very baffling.
 
sorrell skye said:
BBM

I hadn't considered that possibility before (the bolded text) as to why poor RZ's body was left exposed (and I agree it was totally disrespectful) in the courtyard for 12+ hours.

I think I'm going to :sick:
Click to expand...

If Jonah believed RZ suffocated MS, it would also explain why he didn't come rushing to the scene. Following that line of thinking, he called Adam to come to the house because he wanted Adam to keep an eye on RZ, not to comfort him about Max. It would further explain the timing of Adam's departure. What it doesn't answer is murder or suicide.

BTW, black gloves are found in marine supply stores like West Marine, same as the tow rope.
 
SmoothOperator said:
Does
Anyone else wonder why it was that the rope was tied inside the house to the bed and bedframe and not the balcony itself?? Why tie it off inside to drape all the way over the balcony?? I'm still stuck that one wouldve had to have known the exact measurements including the length needed to tie thru the bedframe and around the leg and knotted and it be exact.. A few inches off and she goes over the railing and straight down to the courtyard below.. No hanging because the rope was a few inches off.. But this was done precisely to a tee and on her first try was the exact length necessary to hang her.. Does that not baffle some??

Tying off to the balcony would have been simple math to ensure the rope was cut to the proper length to hang her.. The only measurement that would need to be known is that it was a 9th drop(9.2 to be exact).. That would be simple to surmise and tie off the rope accordingly but no it is done in the most dramatic fashion that simply and without a doubt would be mandatory to have the multiple precise measurements in order to have the correct length the very first time..

Anyone??
Click to expand...

One possibility: If it was a two-person job, one person could have propped up RZ body on the table while the other worked backwards to what turned out to be the bed to do the deed. That is, IF they used the tow rope's full uncut length, which I personally don't believe is the case. LE left out total rope length in their reports.
 
deanna82437 said:
Most excellent points. Have wondered about that document. Will we ever know what it is/was? The treatment of RZ was absolutely the most disgusting action on their part that in itself should require a new investigation. JMO I simply cannot find enough words to describe my feelings about their so-called "investigation."

Once again, JMO and MOO
Click to expand...

If the woman reportedly seen outside the house was not a murderer, perhaps she was someone who came into the house and put the document (for speculation's sake, let's say it was some type of a medical notice to JS conveying that MS was likely smothered and the child services investigation was in the works) somewhere for RZ to find. Perhaps the plan was hatched among several players to isolate RZ and present this information to her to see what she would do...a sort of ad hoc vigilante entrapment.

Or perhaps LE was guiding JS in these maneuvers.

Once again, though, it doesn't determine murder or suicide. But at the very least that would be a wrongful death suit with LE, Peterson, and the hospital as defendants and both the Zahau family and conceivably all the Shacknais as the plaintiffs. But it’s easy enough to imagine that LE wouldn’t want this, nor would Jonah Shacknai given he has to "get back to business."

Were there fingerprints on the document?

This theory would work for me if JS hadn’t lied on warrants. Further speculation: What would happen if Dina and the Zahaus joined forces to investigate Jonah?
 

BTW, black gloves are found in marine supply stores like West Marine, same as the tow rope.[/QUOTE]

As per my theory. If JS has killed RZ in a rage because he thinks she killed his son. JS has strangled her with her t-shirt... the one she could have been wearing and was found with around her neck. AS is at the house is inclined to help. They decide to embellish the murder scene to lead away from JS having done it.

This explains Cynics excellent theory that RZ should have had spinal injury from the hanging. She did not die by hanging but rather by strangulation. She was strung up after being strangled.

RZ was either lowered over the balcony or hoisted up.. and someone needed gloves on their hands to grip the rope better and to ensure there were not fingerprints or DNA on the rope. They though they were so smart as to not "re-strangle" her with the rope but they don't know enough about what happens to a body during hanging.

The black paint message made to again to make JS to be the intended victim of these murders.. killing his son and his girlfriend. No fingerprints on the paint and brush?

This explains the gloves at the scene.
 
The makeup remover and woman's clothes in the guest house suggests a woman was clearly planning to spend the night. This was not the first time. Who brings makeup remover on a one night stand? The woman at the guerst house could be a woman known to AS who he hooks up with when in town. This woman needs to be found. As the clothes were already off and the makeup remover out of the bag I would say they were in bed. Before they got into the bed did they have music on?

Does AS hear RZ scream? Run into the house to find his brother has killed RZ? He goes back to the guest house and sends the woman away in a hurry. Then helps his brother change the murder scene to deflect away from his guilt.

This woman's life is in danger. She could put both JS and AS in jail for the murder or RZ. How private is that courtyard? Can a neighbour see anything from their windows?

I don't believe this murder was planned. JS is smart if he wanted her dead he could have done it a hundred different and better ways. The confusing death scene is a result of these two brothers quick action and skills between the two of them trying to push guilt away from JS. Who KNEW RZ was an artist?

This was a terrible crime of passion over the immenent death of his son and the accusations that the boy had been smothered by RZ. We know JS has issues with the women in his life, two divorces and claims of physical abuse. JS had little or no sleep. I believe this was the first night RZ was alone in the main house because her sister had been taken to the airport. It is the first night he can confront her about the death of his son? He loses it and kills her. Poor woman.
 
There is the possibility that JS is more diabolical than we know. Does he decide to torture RZ to get the "truth" about his son's accident out of her. Ties her up with her hands behind her back and feet to the chair? Stuffs her t-shirt in her mouth to shut her up when she screams? After bashing her about the head and not getting answers he wants he strangles her with the t-shirt. Why was that t-shirt wrapped around her neck. It went around almost five times. Did he used the long sleaves on the t-shirt to strangle her? If she is wearing the t-shirt why are her arms now out of the sleaves?

The brother hears comes in to find RZ dead at the hands of JS and agrees to help re-stage the murder scene to deflect away from JS?
 
CalElliot said:
If the woman reportedly seen outside the house was not a murderer, perhaps she was someone who came into the house and put the document (for speculation's sake, let's say it was some type of a medical notice to JS conveying that MS was likely smothered and the child services investigation was in the works) somewhere for RZ to find. Perhaps the plan was hatched among several players to isolate RZ and present this information to her to see what she would do...a sort of ad hoc vigilante entrapment.

Or perhaps LE was guiding JS in these maneuvers.

Once again, though, it doesn't determine murder or suicide. But at the very least that would be a wrongful death suit with LE, Peterson, and the hospital as defendants and both the Zahau family and conceivably all the Shacknais as the plaintiffs. But it’s easy enough to imagine that LE wouldn’t want this, nor would Jonah Shacknai given he has to "get back to business."

Were there fingerprints on the document?

This theory would work for me if JS hadn’t lied on warrants. Further speculation: What would happen if Dina and the Zahaus joined forces to investigate Jonah?
Click to expand...

I wonder what kind of money situation Dina is now in? This was their only child? Now that the child is dead she would not be receiving child support? Why would she bother to be involved? What good is JS to her if he is in jail?
 
Did JS use some kind of tape to secure RZ to the chair while he was interrogating her? Did he take her arms out of the t-shirt to tie her to the chair with? When she screams for help does he then grab the arms of the t-shirt and tighten them around her neck? Pushing the t-shirt into her mouth?

When they decide to change the murder scene. They get rid of the evidence of tape. Use the rope to tie her up in the same manner as she was actually killed? The hanging is to cover the stangulation. Yes, I really believe they changed this murder scene to deflect away from JS as the guilty party.
 
The police are not going to question both AS and JS shoe prints in and around the bedroom.
 
Mrs. Holmes said:

BTW, black gloves are found in marine supply stores like West Marine, same as the tow rope.
Click to expand...

As per my theory. If JS has killed RZ in a rage because he thinks she killed his son. JS has strangled her with her t-shirt... the one she could have been wearing and was found with around her neck. AS is at the house is inclined to help. They decide to embellish the murder scene to lead away from JS having done it.

This explains Cynics excellent theory that RZ should have had spinal injury from the hanging. She did not die by hanging but rather by strangulation. She was strung up after being strangled.

RZ was either lowered over the balcony or hoisted up.. and someone needed gloves on their hands to grip the rope better and to ensure there were not fingerprints or DNA on the rope. They though they were so smart as to not "re-strangle" her with the rope but they don't know enough about what happens to a body during hanging.

The black paint message made to again to make JS to be the intended victim of these murders.. killing his son and his girlfriend. No fingerprints on the paint and brush?

This explains the gloves at the scene.
Click to expand...


I can't get over some gut feeling that Rebecca was hung from below. As others have said, the whole long rope attached to the bed doesn't really make sense... and, that would be much more difficult to just work out per length and all. The lack of footprints on the balcony also seems odd to me as well as only 9" of dust disturbed. I know other have said, spinal cord injuries/broken neck would not necessarily occur, still, it's one more thing. Then there is the odd factoid LE presented of Adam breaking the table leg while moving the table over to cut her down. That table looks about the right height to me for her to have been perched on, perhaps still alive and bound with the shirt gag in her mouth, then a leg kicked out (or the leg was already damaged on purpose and was bound to give out). The only thing I can't explain (so far) is the prints near the railing.
 
Mrs. Holmes said:
There is the possibility that JS is more diabolical than we know. Does he decide to torture RZ to get the "truth" about his son's accident out of her. Ties her up with her hands behind her back and feet to the chair? Stuffs her t-shirt in her mouth to shut her up when she screams? After bashing her about the head and not getting answers he wants he strangles her with the t-shirt. Why was that t-shirt wrapped around her neck. It went around almost five times. Did he used the long sleaves on the t-shirt to strangle her? If she is wearing the t-shirt why are her arms now out of the sleaves?

The brother hears comes in to find RZ dead at the hands of JS and agrees to help re-stage the murder scene to deflect away from JS?
Click to expand...


I don't think Jonah really believed Rebecca did anything on purpose to Max. In my mind, that doesn't change any anger or self-protection or end the madness reaction. I'm not ruling others out either as suspects.
 
The one thing to remember about these foot prints is that LE can't really say they are RN's. Just that they are consistent with her size.
 
If both men took her to the balcony, bounced her feet in the dust to make footprints, that would explain why she didn't disturb much of the dust on the railing. The two of them could have stood on the carpet in the doorway and tossed her over without their feet ever touching the balcony. This would also include planting finger prints, painting the door, possibly by holding the paint brush in her hand.

If she was strangled with the shirt first, what would the marks on her neck look like?
 
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