The case for murder

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time said:
Yes, easily staged I think. Especially since new shoeprint was found, she could easily have been carried out there. Also, it could be another woman/girl's print either put there on purpose or not.

They could have thrown her over and the rope was too long or accidentally dropped her and her legs hit the table below ... perhaps they were going to make it look like she stood on the table but that didn't work out. Just trying to explain the broken table leg (because how did Adam use it if the leg was already broken) and I' not sure we have any accurate enough account of the rope length.

Plus, did anyone ever figure out why her body was in that position with her arms and legs behind her? Still seems like rigor kept them that way or some other explanation. It just ain't right for a body that was hanging, cut down, then carried and laid to look like that to me.
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I was assumming she was still in the tied up position with hands and legs behind her ... when she was cut down her legs could have gone behind her...
 
time said:
Women in Crime link



Oh, my... this is news to me, but maybe others already saw this.
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From Time
Quote:
Expert pathologists have confirmed that Rebecca died while on her back – not from or while hanging. Lividity was fixed in her back, not in her legs or feet. Renowned pathologist Dr Cyril Wecht has reviewed the autopsy report and has concluded this is not a suicide and that she had blunt force trauma in four places on the top of her head, inconsistent with the fall and consistent with blows that could have rendered Rebecca unconscious.


WOW... just WOW!!!! this has to re-open the case.... and the murderer is still out there and getting all this info

Will JS cut and run for the border with all his money.... ????
 
Mrs. Holmes said:
I was assumming she was still in the tied up position with hands and legs behind her ... when she was cut down her legs could have gone behind her...
Click to expand...

Maybe, but I figured Adam somewhat supported her body. Wasn't he or LE claiming he stood on the table to reach her - seems too high if not - I don't remember exactly but wasn't there some length of rope tied to her neck cut, e.g., like many inches that would have been above her neck?

I don't really understand how he could have stood on the table with a broken leg anyway, but .... And, I though it was said he carried her to her position or laid her on the ground. I just can't see him cutting the rope, her body drops in that awful position and there's no mention of the body dropping to the ground.

The other problem I have is ... would you do CPR with her in that position? Earlier, when looking at pictures of her body on the ground, I thought her head looked raised up quite a ways from the ground (perhaps because the arms were behind her or rigor or whatever). I don't know, it just doesn't make sense to me.
 
Mrs. Holmes said:
From Time
Quote:
Expert pathologists have confirmed that Rebecca died while on her back – not from or while hanging. Lividity was fixed in her back, not in her legs or feet. Renowned pathologist Dr Cyril Wecht has reviewed the autopsy report and has concluded this is not a suicide and that she had blunt force trauma in four places on the top of her head, inconsistent with the fall and consistent with blows that could have rendered Rebecca unconscious.


WOW... just WOW!!!! this has to re-open the case.... and the murderer is still out there and getting all this info

Will JS cut and run for the border with all his money.... ????
Click to expand...



Yeah, so what happened then. She died and then was hanged? I don't know.
 
Mrs. Holmes said:
From Time
Quote:
Expert pathologists have confirmed that Rebecca died while on her back – not from or while hanging. Lividity was fixed in her back, not in her legs or feet. Renowned pathologist Dr Cyril Wecht has reviewed the autopsy report and has concluded this is not a suicide and that she had blunt force trauma in four places on the top of her head, inconsistent with the fall and consistent with blows that could have rendered Rebecca unconscious.


WOW... just WOW!!!! this has to re-open the case.... and the murderer is still out there and getting all this info

Will JS cut and run for the border with all his money.... ????
Click to expand...

The opinion from Dr. Wecht was expressed by AB on a Dr. Drew episode a week or so ago. I'm not sure, does anyone know if AB has requested the AG to re-open the case for investigation? By an independent team, hopefully. I'll look for a link for the Dr. Drew episode.
 
Mrs. Holmes said:

BTW, black gloves are found in marine supply stores like West Marine, same as the tow rope.
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Mrs. Holmes said:
As per my theory. If JS has killed RZ in a rage because he thinks she killed his son. JS has strangled her with her t-shirt... the one she could have been wearing and was found with around her neck. AS is at the house is inclined to help. They decide to embellish the murder scene to lead away from JS having done it.

This explains Cynics excellent theory that RZ should have had spinal injury from the hanging. She did not die by hanging but rather by strangulation. She was strung up after being strangled.

RZ was either lowered over the balcony or hoisted up.. and someone needed gloves on their hands to grip the rope better and to ensure there were not fingerprints or DNA on the rope. They though they were so smart as to not "re-strangle" her with the rope but they don't know enough about what happens to a body during hanging.

The black paint message made to again to make JS to be the intended victim of these murders.. killing his son and his girlfriend. No fingerprints on the paint and brush?

This explains the gloves at the scene.
Click to expand...

Since I do watch a lot of CSI shows and Forensic Evidence shows, I'm sure from the actual, true cases on Tru TV of Forensic Evidence shows, they now claim to be able to get finger prints from INSIDE gloves, and DNA as well.
 
BBM
time said:
Yes, easily staged I think. Especially since new shoeprint was found, she could easily have been carried out there. Also, it could be another woman/girl's print either put there on purpose or not.

They could have thrown her over and the rope was too long or accidentally dropped her and her legs hit the table below ... perhaps they were going to make it look like she stood on the table but that didn't work out. Just trying to explain the broken table leg (because how did Adam use it if the leg was already broken) and I' not sure we have any accurate enough account of the rope length.

Plus, did anyone ever figure out why her body was in that position with her arms and legs behind her? Still seems like rigor kept them that way or some other explanation. It just ain't right for a body that was hanging, cut down, then carried and laid to look like that to me.
Click to expand...

Mrs. Holmes said:
I was assumming she was still in the tied up position with hands and legs behind her ... when she was cut down her legs could have gone behind her...
Click to expand...

This is my best guess. I didn't have everything perfectly tied so the feet didn't come up as far as I thought they should have but this is what I think happened and she was cut down soon enough and laid on her back in the grass to account for the livor mortis on her back:

IWannaKnow said:
This is my hypothesis:
I believe Rebecca was murdered. I believe that the missing 10' of rope came from the other end of the 7' section trailing from her wrist bindings and was threaded through the tow rope handle woven into her foot bindings. I believe that rope was tied to the leg of the headboard of the bed and her neck noose was tied to the footboard leg. I believe she was bound into a teardrop hogtie, much like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Model_in_suspended_hogtie.jpg

For reference:
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz8699.jpg

Remember the discussion about TWO marks for the rope on the railing? And the missing 10' of rope? This accounts for her bent legs, the fact that there was a trailing 7' section of rope from her wrists but not her feet, why the tow rope handle was woven into the foot bindings, the missing 10' of rope, the second line of missing dirt on the railing from a rope, the way the bed is pulled away from the wall (if the rope were only on the footboard, the bed should have continued to travel across the room being pulled from the reported 600#'s of weight, it didn't. It was being pulled at an angle and the headboard ran into the wall, stopping the bed from moving further; different traction points), and the need for the gag.
P1010492.jpg

P1010494.jpg


The blue pen casing is supposed to mimic the tow rope handle, but because it is rigid it just slid down, but that would be the tow rope handle the 7' segment from her wrists would be running through.
P1010490.jpg

P1010495.jpg

P1010497.jpg

P1010496.jpg

P1010498.jpg

P1010500.jpg

I suppose the killer/s could have suspended her and cut her feet loose before leaving, taking that rope with him/her/them, and therefore AS found her hanging from the neck as he stated.....hmmmmm. More questions.
Click to expand...
 
I was thinking about the possibility of missing rope length. If they lowered her over the balcony and then realized the rope is too long.. (she is already dead).. they realize it is too long and have to cut a section out of the rope... then she is laid on the ground... he may never have stood on that broke table and I would like to see someone try and stand on it.

This would explain if their is missing rope.. and where is it? Also they should be able to tell if the cut parts MATCH up?
 
time said:
Maybe, but I figured Adam somewhat supported her body. Wasn't he or LE claiming he stood on the table to reach her - seems too high if not - I don't remember exactly but wasn't there some length of rope tied to her neck cut, e.g., like many inches that would have been above her neck?

I don't really understand how he could have stood on the table with a broken leg anyway, but .... And, I though it was said he carried her to her position or laid her on the ground. I just can't see him cutting the rope, her body drops in that awful position and there's no mention of the body dropping to the ground.

The other problem I have is ... would you do CPR with her in that position? Earlier, when looking at pictures of her body on the ground, I thought her head looked raised up quite a ways from the ground (perhaps because the arms were behind her or rigor or whatever). I don't know, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Click to expand...

Yeah what if the rope really was too long. As some believe all of the length of rope is not accounted for. If it was too long they cut it out and took it away and just layed her on the ground. I would like to see someone stand on that wobbly table and hold onto a woman and reach up and cut ..... and not drop her??? and still manage to lay her on the ground? This seems more likely that she would drop when you cut her down... and then there would be post mortom damage to the body...

I would like to see if that can be done and with the same kind of rope.

Do the rope ends match up? Or is this where the possible missing 10 feet went. Where is it? Dumped in a trash bin on JS way back to the hospital?
 
Mrs. Holmes said:
I was thinking about the possibility of missing rope length. If they lowered her over the balcony and then realized the rope is too long.. (she is already dead).. they realize it is too long and have to cut a section out of the rope... then she is laid on the ground... he may never have stood on that broke table and I would like to see someone try and stand on it.

This would explain if their is missing rope.. and where is it? Also they should be able to tell if the cut parts MATCH up?
Click to expand...

Oh great idea! Checking to see if the cut ends all have a met is really good thinking.
 
FWIW, I set up the scenario on my porch, I was easily able to hop twice without losing my balance with my hands and feet bound. I also had my husband try to pick me up and throw me over without stepping off the carpet. He was able to do it by hooking one arm around my shoulders and the other under my knees. He didn't need to move his feet out onto the balcony where footprints other then mine would be left at all. (he didn't really throw me over :p)
 
IWannaKnow said:
BBM




This is my best guess. I didn't have everything perfectly tied so the feet didn't come up as far as I thought they should have but this is what I think happened and she was cut down soon enough and laid on her back in the grass to account for the livor mortis on her back:
Click to expand...

That poor Teddy bear. :( thanks for taking the time to set this up.
 
I want to discuss the position of her livor mortis. It just doesn't make sense to me.


http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&Itemid=116

if the body has been suspended in the vertical position as in hanging, hypostasis will be most marked in the legs, and hands, and if suspension be prolonged for a few hours, petechial haemorrhages are seen in the skin&#8230;.<snipped for relevance> &#8230;If the body is moved before the blood coagulates, these patches will disappear and new ones will form on dependent parts, but lividity to a lighter degree remains in the original area, due to staining of the tissues by haemolysis.
Click to expand...


From Rebecca's autopsy report: "Livor mortis was posterior red and fixed. Both livor and rigor mortis were appropriate for the decedant's position" even if they are referring to her position of having laid in the yard for many hours, the article above addresses how livor changes when a body is moved. I'm going to seek additional info about how long a body must be stationary before livor is truly fixed. It seems if Rebecca died from hanging, and hung for 3-4 hours, her livor mortis would not shift again, but I want to find more info about what happens to livor when a body is moved.
 
Mrs. Holmes said:
Yeah what if the rope really was too long. As some believe all of the length of rope is not accounted for. If it was too long they cut it out and took it away and just layed her on the ground. I would like to see someone stand on that wobbly table and hold onto a woman and reach up and cut ..... and not drop her??? and still manage to lay her on the ground? This seems more likely that she would drop when you cut her down... and then there would be post mortom damage to the body...

I would like to see if that can be done and with the same kind of rope.

Do the rope ends match up? Or is this where the possible missing 10 feet went. Where is it? Dumped in a trash bin on JS way back to the hospital?
Click to expand...


I would think all of the rope needs to be accounted for. Was that new rope? Did they claim it had been used before, should be able to tell.

I'm leaving the question of how she was hanged and if it caused her death!
 
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