Zodiac: The Movie

I just saw the movie for the first time last night after finding it on DVD. It did seem to be very factual and very well done. But being that it was based on the work of Graysmith, I knew it was going to point to Arthur Leigh Allen. It paints such a convincing picture that you scarcely believe Zodiac could have been anyone else but Allen.

But there are problems:

  • To my knowledge, Mike Mageau never named Allen as his shooter. I had always heard that he maintained that he never really got a good look at him.

  • In the movie, Darlene Ferrin's sister states that Darlene called the mystery man "Lee" but, as far as I know, she called him "Paul."

  • In the movie, Melvin Belli's housekeeper stated that the mysterious caller told her that it was his birthday and that he had to kill again. I have never heard this. Since the call was allegedly received on December 18 and Allen was born December 18, it paints Allen most assuredly as the killer. But I have never heard of this before seeing the movie.

  • The composite described by the cops at the murder of Paul Stine and refined by Kathleen Johns who got probably the best look at him of anyone, was never shown in the movie and I had to wonder if that was because it looks nothing like Arthur Leigh Allen.

The problem for me is that the descriptions people gave of the mystery man that harrassed Darlene Ferrin doesn't match Allen. I have seen of photo of him taken in 1966 and he was already balding and the man was described as having his "champagne-colored hair" piled high on top into a kind of "pompadour." You would think that anyone who saw both the mystery man and images of Allen would have immediately come forward to finger him but, to my knowledge, that never happened.

If you put thick rim glasses on any photo of Allen, it simply doesn't look like the composite which is the best description we have of the killer.

I still believe Cheri Jo Bates was Zodiac's first victim. The way he kept sending letters out bragging about it to anyone he thought would listen, tells me it was his first kill and that he was exceedingly proud of it. Allen would have been 33 years old in 1966. It's hard to believe Zodiac didn't start killing until that age. Serial killers start much earlier. Even if you go back to the murders of those two high school kids in '63, Allen was still 30--too old. Moreover, I don't believe those two kids were killed by Zodiac. There was too much braggin going on after the murder of Bates for it to have been anything but Zodiac's first kill. The movie has Allen stating that he spent a lot of time in Riverside in 1966 but I don't know if that's true. But I get the impression that the writer of "The Confession" was someone closer to Bates's age--late teens, early 20s--not a man in his 30s.

As for Don Cheney's statements that Allen had told him before any of the murders occurred that he would hunt people down and send letters to the cops calling himself "Zodiac" just doesn't wash with me. I mean, if Allen said that then he is Zodiac. I just don't buy it. Too convenient.

Let us not forget poor Richard Jewell who tried to foil a bombing in Atlanta and probably saved a few lives in the process. His former employers stated that he was a weirdo security guard who stopped people for no reason and when he left them to take the job in Atlanta, stated that he would foil a bombing and be a big hero. As a result, he became suspect #1. It was years before his name was cleared but by then the damage was done. Jewell died in '07 at age 44 or so and I will always believe all the pressure he was under as a suspect did him in. We have the same thing with Allen--a general weirdo who had people from his past saying he made statements that immediately causes close LE scrutiny. I remember watching an interview with Allen and he wept when describing how horrible it was to have the Zodiac killing pinned on him and he too died not long after.

While the movie was often factual and very well done, quite entertaining, I just don't believe Arthur Leigh Allen is Zodiac and the movie comes close to slandering a man who can no longer defend himself.
 
I just saw the movie for the first time last night after finding it on DVD. It did seem to be very factual and very well done. But being that it was based on the work of Graysmith, I knew it was going to point to Arthur Leigh Allen. It paints such a convincing picture that you scarcely believe Zodiac could have been anyone else but Allen.

But there are problems:

  • To my knowledge, Mike Mageau never named Allen as his shooter. I had always heard that he maintained that he never really got a good look at him.

  • In the movie, Darlene Ferrin's sister states that Darlene called the mystery man "Lee" but, as far as I know, she called him "Paul."

  • In the movie, Melvin Belli's housekeeper stated that the mysterious caller told her that it was his birthday and that he had to kill again. I have never heard this. Since the call was allegedly received on December 18 and Allen was born December 18, it paints Allen most assuredly as the killer. But I have never heard of this before seeing the movie.

  • The composite described by the cops at the murder of Paul Stine and refined by Kathleen Johns who got probably the best look at him of anyone, was never shown in the movie and I had to wonder if that was because it looks nothing like Arthur Leigh Allen.

The problem for me is that the descriptions people gave of the mystery man that harrassed Darlene Ferrin doesn't match Allen. I have seen of photo of him taken in 1966 and he was already balding and the man was described as having his "champagne-colored hair" piled high on top into a kind of "pompadour." You would think that anyone who saw both the mystery man and images of Allen would have immediately come forward to finger him but, to my knowledge, that never happened.

If you put thick rim glasses on any photo of Allen, it simply doesn't look like the composite which is the best description we have of the killer.

I still believe Cheri Jo Bates was Zodiac's first victim. The way he kept sending letters out bragging about it to anyone he thought would listen, tells me it was his first kill and that he was exceedingly proud of it. Allen would have been 33 years old in 1966. It's hard to believe Zodiac didn't start killing until that age. Serial killers start much earlier. Even if you go back to the murders of those two high school kids in '63, Allen was still 30--too old. Moreover, I don't believe those two kids were killed by Zodiac. There was too much braggin going on after the murder of Bates for it to have been anything but Zodiac's first kill. The movie has Allen stating that he spent a lot of time in Riverside in 1966 but I don't know if that's true. But I get the impression that the writer of "The Confession" was someone closer to Bates's age--late teens, early 20s--not a man in his 30s.

As for Don Cheney's statements that Allen had told him before any of the murders occurred that he would hunt people down and send letters to the cops calling himself "Zodiac" just doesn't wash with me. I mean, if Allen said that then he is Zodiac. I just don't buy it. Too convenient.

Let us not forget poor Richard Jewell who tried to foil a bombing in Atlanta and probably saved a few lives in the process. His former employers stated that he was a weirdo security guard who stopped people for no reason and when he left them to take the job in Atlanta, stated that he would foil a bombing and be a big hero. As a result, he became suspect #1. It was years before his name was cleared but by then the damage was done. Jewell died in '07 at age 44 or so and I will always believe all the pressure he was under as a suspect did him in. We have the same thing with Allen--a general weirdo who had people from his past saying he made statements that immediately causes close LE scrutiny. I remember watching an interview with Allen and he wept when describing how horrible it was to have the Zodiac killing pinned on him and he too died not long after.

While the movie was often factual and very well done, quite entertaining, I just don't believe Arthur Leigh Allen is Zodiac and the movie comes close to slandering a man who can no longer defend himself.

Wow, good to see you are still around Omri, I hope you visit some of my posts.
I dont think Artur was the killer, never did.
I was never even interested in this case untill just over a month ago when became convinced my POI was giving me constant clues.
I watched this movie a couple weeks back and was wondering this:
Though I thought Cherri Bates was the first, is it possible the Lompoc murders and many of the nightstalker murders are Zodiacs? Lompoc happened in 1963, and was an exact like the berryessa lake murder.
Zodiac is fixated on the halloween card #14, In 1963 my suspect would have been 14.
Not that a 14 year old killer could have done this, just that he could have copied someone or ha some serious issues(couldn;t get a girl). I also believe there were several Zodiacs, but my POI is one of them. I AM SURE. Still no response from cold case. Tommorow morning I am taking a new line of action. I am going to visit the local authorities though I think I will be hushed up because my city is corrupt.
 
By a slight margin, that is my second favorite of the five Zodiac Killer inspired movies - two are good, two are dreadful and one I haven't seen.
 
Wow, good to see you are still around Omri, I hope you visit some of my posts.
I dont think Artur was the killer, never did.
I was never even interested in this case untill just over a month ago when became convinced my POI was giving me constant clues.
I watched this movie a couple weeks back and was wondering this:
Though I thought Cherri Bates was the first, is it possible the Lompoc murders and many of the nightstalker murders are Zodiacs? Lompoc happened in 1963, and was an exact like the berryessa lake murder.

Again, I think Zodiac crowed too much over Bates's murder for it to be any but his first killing. He didn't do that with the Lompoc killings and that doesn't make much sense. That first killing is special to a serial killer--the point at which he went from pipsqueak to badass, his way of saying, "I have arrived!" I think the similarities between Lompoc and Beryessa are coincidental. I think Lompoc was a revenge killing--some jealous guy who wanted the girl but couldn't get her--and Beryessa was simply a stranger--someone who hates seeing couples together because he is incapable of such a relationship.

Zodiac is fixated on the halloween card #14, In 1963 my suspect would have been 14.
Not that a 14 year old killer could have done this, just that he could have copied someone or ha some serious issues(couldn;t get a girl). I also believe there were several Zodiacs, but my POI is one of them. I AM SURE. Still no response from cold case. Tommorow morning I am taking a new line of action. I am going to visit the local authorities though I think I will be hushed up because my city is corrupt.

I can't comment on your suspect as I have never heard of this person before. But your idea that there were several zodiacs has also occurred to me. Also I believe it is entirely possible that two people worked in collusion--one who killed and one who wrote the letters. That could have been his hint about his ability to look "completely different" when he goes on his little hunts.
 
I never really followed the case at the time although I had heard about it many years ago. I truly enjoyed the movie and have my own copy. Recently I got the "Director's Cut" which has many interviews with surviving principles.

I have a question for anyone with an answer. Does anyone know of a fact that could be said to exclude ALA? I've labored long and hard to find something but can't come up with it. Many people believe that Graysmith made several factual mistakes which may or may not be true, but leaving that aside, I'm unable to find a way to exclude him.


He really looked so good to me as the Zodiac, for many reasons. I know they said the DNA did not match from the stamps, nor apparently did the finger and handprints. He has been the only person I have thought could be him. By the way, I was growing up, and was a teenager in Vallejo at the time he was killing, and I knew Darlene, and her family.
 
By a slight margin, that is my second favorite of the five Zodiac Killer inspired movies - two are good, two are dreadful and one I haven't seen.

If you include Dirty Harry, then it would be six movies - 3 are good, 2 are dreadful and 1 (the Spanish Language one) I still haven't seen.
 
I saw the movie only yesterdayand pondered if he used ZODIAC, or the lesser, THE ZODIAC as the encryption key for all his messages sent to police ???? BUTTONS

Its very easy to presume he used his personal name in the message. He stated his name was in the encryption.

the%2Bzodiac%2Bkiller%2Bhalloween%2Bcard%2Bv%2Bsymbol.jpg

http://www.zodiackillerenigma.com/2015/04/the-zodiac-killer-death-clock.html

4159323_orig.gif

http://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-news/the-phillips-petroleum-map-key

Turing machine Enigma

His nickname was probably Buttons lol
 
The movie is very good, it caught the flavor of the Bay Area in the late 60's early 70's nicely. The shots out at Blue Rock Springs caught that place nicely. The only thing he got wrong was the drivein they cruised, it was Eat and Run, not Mr Ed's. Darlene and Mike were west side folks, they cruised eat and run, we east side kids cruised the jumping Bean. There were two Mr Eds back then and neither one was a place you could cruise
 
apistodave wrote
The movie is very good, it caught the flavor of the Bay Area in the late 60's early 70's nicely. The shots out at Blue Rock Springs caught that place nicely.

Lately I wonder why Zodiac choose the places he did for his Crimes. Some posts state he must have lived or held a job in the north and west side of the bay area. Was there something else about the area
in the late 1960,s to bring him there?
 

Robert Downey Jr. as Paul Avery


John Carroll Lynch as Arthur Leigh Allen
 
GoBrewers Wrote
Good movie, but very Hollywood.

Some of the movie trailers are on line. Good filming and better acting.
Zodiac was a killer who could have shot anyone. He killed people like he was gaming the system.

It was not a game to people he hurt and killed. With the letter writing he was manipulating the Newspapers to get in the News at that time.
 
He really looked so good to me as the Zodiac, for many reasons. I know they said the DNA did not match from the stamps, nor apparently did the finger and handprints. He has been the only person I have thought could be him. By the way, I was growing up, and was a teenager in Vallejo at the time he was killing, and I knew Darlene, and her family.

Could Be Vallejo is, Crusing distance from the City.
The zodiac must have driven the roads of Vallejo, and had a good idea of how to get around. He knew where to find the Phone booth, From where he called the police to report his twisted crime.

Probably he drove out from the city, by going across the Golden gate bridge. He would have driven a great distance without stop and go traffic. He didn,t care about anybody, except for himself.
 
Allen died in 1992 and the cause of death was listed as a heart attack with [SIZE=-1]atherosclerosis[/SIZE] but he had had diabetes for years, was very much overweight (nearly blind if I recall correctly, common with diabetes), but only 58 years old when he was found dead on the floor of his residence. I can only imagine the stress he must have been under over the years.

Obviously one cannot try a dead man but my point was that in theory, he could have and should have been tried for these murders. But there was no definitive physical evidence that came forth that any prosecutor would want to run with. But there are some misconceptions that need to be clarified.

One is that there has come to light certain evidence that exonerates him such as a fingerprint or DNA lifted from underneath one of the double stamps that Zodiac sent. I have argued with some knowledge on my part (having worked in this area for years) that unless it was possible to establish a chain of custody of evidence it is essentially worthless. We do not know and will probably never know how that print/DNA came to be placed there. It does not however match Allen's. That's all we know.

It has been stated that none of the handwriting samples match Allen's. Of course he was ambidextrious being a natural left handed person but he could write very legibly with his right hand. But the problem here is that he never produced a genuine written document with his right hand for examination. He did of course scribble something but it wasn't something that could be said to be a genuine exemplar of his handwriting. Additionally, we have two handwriting experts who were at odds with one another. One said it wasn't and the other said "do not eliminate on the basis of the handwriting."

So far as I know the only evidence are the letters and envelopes touched by many people and we can be relatively certain that Zodiac took pains not to leave prints or anything behind to link him. Although DNA was not in use back in those days, DNA came to be known as far back as the 1950s. Allen was by most accounts a highly intelligent individual with an IQ said to be as high as 160 but a complete failure at life and most telling with women. The frustration he must have felt throughout his life must have been palpable. It is known that he hated his own mother and I'm pretty certain that extended to all women.

I won't go on further except to repeat again that there is no chain of custody existing for any physical evidence such as fingerprints, DNA or any other incriminating evidence that could link anyone to the crimes. The best evidence would be the letters/ciphers and the bootprint. They were 10 1/2 "Wing Walker" shoes but my understanding is that no such shoes were ever found in Allen's possession. His shoe size, however was 10 1/2.

But take note of this fact. At the point that Allen was first interviewed by the three police officers at his place of employment, all murders ceased and never occurred again. I do not view this as coincidental. Nor do I view as coincidental that no Zodiac letters were sent during his incarceration for child molestation. And the ONLY letter the chief detective ever received from any of the 2,500 possible suspects came from Allen taunting Toschi for failure to break the case.

One more thing, Bill Armstrong, the second primary detective tried for some 11 days to break the story of Don Cheney, Allen's chief accuser and was unable to do so. There are others who would be called to testify in such a trial. Allen's main defense would have been that the prosecution couldn't "prove" he did the crimes. I would have bet the farm he would not have taken the witness stand.

At the very least, a trial would be held and we would have seen who held the stronger hand. We'll never know, of course, but these are just as few of the issues that would have come to light.

The ciphers are only of interest to me in that they allow the essential information to be relayed which was soon accomplished early on. Other than that, I don't view them as particularly important nor interesting. Zodiac would lie and even lie about his lies. They are interesting artifacts but hardly more in my opinion.

One final point and I will be quiet. Who stands to gain by keeping this controversy alive? As I have said, follow the money. There are people today who are picking over the bones of Zodiac and will keep this case alive for a century or more. As the individual I referenced said, they do NOT want this case solved and I concur completely.




Why do you think they don't want it solved. Do you think he worked for the government?
 
Why do you think they don't want it solved. Do you think he worked for the government?

I don’t believe that. I think they couldn’t conclusively establish through DNA who did it. I’ll continue to believe it was Allen because of several different coincidences that I don’t believe were coincidences.
 
Zodiac, the latest Fincher ('se7en', 'fight club') masterwork. Not to be confused with the vastly inferior flick "the zodiac" released a couple of years earlier, starring Robin Tunney (she of 'the craft' and 'prison break').

The Craft was a great film, but she kind of plays the same role in every film. I liked Zodiac. Even Gyllenhaal was really good. Good direction makes a big difference.
 

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