NC NC - Faith Hedgepeth, 19, UNC student, Chapel Hill, 7 Sept 2012 #1

Not specific to this case, but just a reminder that CBS premieres its (fictional) “Wisdom of the Crowd” series tonight, on using the hive-mind of the Web to solve crimes (no idea if it'll bear any similarities to Websleuths?):


http://www.cbs.com/shows/wisdom-of-the-crowd/

Webthrush said:

Not specific to this case, but just a reminder that CBS premieres its (fictional) “Wisdom of the Crowd” series tonight, on using the hive-mind of the Web to solve crimes (no idea if it'll bear any similarities to Websleuths?):


http://www.cbs.com/shows/wisdom-of-the-crowd/

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Curious if Websleuths community ever helped crack a cold case?

raiders444 said:

Curious if Websleuths community ever helped crack a cold case?

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Yes, but mostly on the UID side of things. I think LE does get ideas by reading here sometimes, but I have no proof of that.

Skigirl said:

Yes, but mostly on the UID side of things. I think LE does get ideas by reading here sometimes, but I have no proof of that.

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they would be foolish not to at least skim this thing! You never know when somebody might mention something that nobody else knows about.

My thinking on this case tends to run in certain circles, and at the moment my circle of thought has returned me to KR and the reasons to believe she is responsible for this crime. Yes, the male DNA on the bottle, pen and Faith are a problem for the KR-did-it-theory, but I will deal with that later.

The most compelling reason to suspect KR, IMO, is that she was the last person to see Faith alive and the odds of someone else entering that second floor apartment at 4:30am (uninvited and unannounced) are one in a million. If KR suspected that Faith was somehow being dishonest with her about a male, such as BE, this combined with alcohol could easily have sent her in to a murderous rage, in which case the rum bottle as murder weapon makes perfect sense.

For those who think that a male perpetrator did this, there is no chance that Faith would've let a male in to that apartment at 4:30am without that male having texted her or without her having texted that male. No chance. As for a male sneaking into that apartment at 4:30am, i.e., the possibility that the perpetrator was a prowler, this is a possibility and one that I regard as the most probable of the male-perpetrator scenarios. However this scenario has its issues as well, including what the prowler's motive was, why he ended up killing Faith, why she was killed where she was killed and not elsewhere and why she was killed with the bottle.

The bottle may be more important than one might think, IMO. Indeed I think the bottle might be able to help us better understand what happened if we give a bit of time over to thinking carefully about it. Why does the bottle become the murder weapon? What is it doing in the bedroom? How did it get from the kitchen to the bedroom? Maybe a prowler picks it up as he walks past the kitchen towards the bedroom? If so, though, he already had terrible violence on his mind (as opposed to merely burglary or sexual assault). Regardless, I think the bottle is worth thinking about, mulling over.

I've also always thought KR is in some way directly involved. I agree the likelihood of it being some rando prowler seems pretty slim- especially when you add in that note on the bag. If it's a totally random person who just moves about in the shadows and has ZERO connection to FH, KR etc....why the need for a personal sounding note? Not to be morbid but if your MO is to rape and kill, you probably don't care too much about leaving behind notes. So IMO, the guy who's DNA was found is a connection to FH or KR or both. Maybe someone KR called in to "teach this girl a lesson for messing with the wrong man" sort of thing?

Also, wondering about cell phone forensics if anyone has experience in this area. We know LE can tell where cell's were located based on tower pings, and cell phone records can show who texted who, and when. But can LE recover what was texted? If ETJ, KR, BE, etc. delete texts would LE be able to recover what was written? Maybe LE has some very positive evidence here but without the actual words, can't bring a case to court. A suspect could easily claim what they texted was about a homework assignment or some BS

Alright, since we're back to KR again:


The issue of semen being present and matching the DNA of the murder weapon continues to be an insurmountable problem in the "KR did it in a rage" scenario. There has yet to be a realistic answer to that problem presented.


Second, and I don't think this has been mentioned before, but the motive (jealousy) in the KR theories is particularly half-baked. There's no evidence of conflict between the two women. None. The only named male the two had any sort of mutual relationship with was BE, and KR had a prior relationship with him while FH had a current plutonic one. That's as far as it gets. Even if there was a jealousy issue there, which again has never been shown, just supposed, female friends usually find a way to deal with that problem without deciding to "eliminate the hypotenuse". Even throwing a little alcohol into a jealous girl doesn't often turn her into a murdering sociopath. I knew girls in college that occasionally had conflicts over guys they both liked, and that usually just involved not speaking to each other for a while, making catty comments to friends, then tearily reconnecting once they realized their friendship was more important.


Now, sorry, but there is a "chance" Faith let an unexpected male in. It's been stated several times just in this thread by women that they did that very thing during their college years. It may seem unlikely, but Faith could have, too.


Finally, I hate to repeat, but LE looked at KR extensively. If she'd snapped and beaten Faith with a bottle, she'd have descended into a drunken panic, ran around leaving a bunch of incriminating forensic evidence, probably taken Faith's car as opposed to waiting for someone to come get her, then broken down after the first two hours of interrogation once she realized how hopelessly screwed she was.

CADwrest said:

Alright, since we're back to KR again:


The issue of semen being present and matching the DNA of the murder weapon continues to be an insurmountable problem in the "KR did it in a rage" scenario. There has yet to be a realistic answer to that problem presented.


Second, and I don't think this has been mentioned before, but the motive (jealousy) in the KR theories is particularly half-baked. There's no evidence of conflict between the two women. None. The only named male the two had any sort of mutual relationship with was BE, and KR had a prior relationship with him while FH had a current plutonic one. That's as far as it gets. Even if there was a jealousy issue there, which again has never been shown, just supposed, female friends usually find a way to deal with that problem without deciding to "eliminate the hypotenuse". Even throwing a little alcohol into a jealous girl doesn't often turn her into a murdering sociopath. I knew girls in college that occasionally had conflicts over guys they both liked, and that usually just involved not speaking to each other for a while, making catty comments to friends, then tearily reconnecting once they realized their friendship was more important.


Now, sorry, but there is a "chance" Faith let an unexpected male in. It's been stated several times just in this thread by women that they did that very thing during their college years. It may seem unlikely, but Faith could have, too.


Finally, I hate to repeat, but LE looked at KR extensively. If she'd snapped and beaten Faith with a bottle, she'd have descended into a drunken panic, ran around leaving a bunch of incriminating forensic evidence, probably taken Faith's car as opposed to waiting for someone to come get her, then broken down after the first two hours of interrogation once she realized how hopelessly screwed she was.

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I agree completely with this argument.

raiders444 said:

I've also always thought KR is in some way directly involved. I agree the likelihood of it being some rando prowler seems pretty slim- especially when you add in that note on the bag. If it's a totally random person who just moves about in the shadows and has ZERO connection to FH, KR etc....why the need for a personal sounding note? Not to be morbid but if your MO is to rape and kill, you probably don't care too much about leaving behind notes. So IMO, the guy who's DNA was found is a connection to FH or KR or both. Maybe someone KR called in to "teach this girl a lesson for messing with the wrong man" sort of thing?

Also, wondering about cell phone forensics if anyone has experience in this area. We know LE can tell where cell's were located based on tower pings, and cell phone records can show who texted who, and when. But can LE recover what was texted? If ETJ, KR, BE, etc. delete texts would LE be able to recover what was written? Maybe LE has some very positive evidence here but without the actual words, can't bring a case to court. A suspect could easily claim what they texted was about a homework assignment or some BS

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I always thought that the police could get the content of text messages (usually by subpoena to the cell provider). Just saying this based on watching lots of Dateline and Googling just now

raiders444 said:

I've also always thought KR is in some way directly involved. I agree the likelihood of it being some rando prowler seems pretty slim- especially when you add in that note on the bag. If it's a totally random person who just moves about in the shadows and has ZERO connection to FH, KR etc....why the need for a personal sounding note? Not to be morbid but if your MO is to rape and kill, you probably don't care too much about leaving behind notes. So IMO, the guy who's DNA was found is a connection to FH or KR or both. Maybe someone KR called in to "teach this girl a lesson for messing with the wrong man" sort of thing?

Also, wondering about cell phone forensics if anyone has experience in this area. We know LE can tell where cell's were located based on tower pings, and cell phone records can show who texted who, and when. But can LE recover what was texted? If ETJ, KR, BE, etc. delete texts would LE be able to recover what was written? Maybe LE has some very positive evidence here but without the actual words, can't bring a case to court. A suspect could easily claim what they texted was about a homework assignment or some BS

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Yes, LE can recover texts pretty easily, and most likely has. A) they are deleted from a phone, even when "deleted," indeed, in many cases, LE uses the fact that someone *tried* to delete texts as evidence in a subsequent prosecution (e.g., see Terry Sievers case), B) the cell phone carrier has records of the contents of texts and can turn those over with a warrant. The idea that there is some important communication between or involving Faith and her inner circle that has not been uncovered is very unlikely to be true.

Thanks! This case is a head scratcher for sure. With no obvious lead, for me personally it helps to eliminate little pieces of information- i.e. if there were sight lines from ETJ's apartment.

CADwrest said:

Alright, since we're back to KR again:


The issue of semen being present and matching the DNA of the murder weapon continues to be an insurmountable problem in the "KR did it in a rage" scenario. There has yet to be a realistic answer to that problem presented.


Second, and I don't think this has been mentioned before, but the motive (jealousy) in the KR theories is particularly half-baked. There's no evidence of conflict between the two women. None. The only named male the two had any sort of mutual relationship with was BE, and KR had a prior relationship with him while FH had a current plutonic one. That's as far as it gets. Even if there was a jealousy issue there, which again has never been shown, just supposed, female friends usually find a way to deal with that problem without deciding to "eliminate the hypotenuse". Even throwing a little alcohol into a jealous girl doesn't often turn her into a murdering sociopath. I knew girls in college that occasionally had conflicts over guys they both liked, and that usually just involved not speaking to each other for a while, making catty comments to friends, then tearily reconnecting once they realized their friendship was more important.


Now, sorry, but there is a "chance" Faith let an unexpected male in. It's been stated several times just in this thread by women that they did that very thing during their college years. It may seem unlikely, but Faith could have, too.


Finally, I hate to repeat, but LE looked at KR extensively. If she'd snapped and beaten Faith with a bottle, she'd have descended into a drunken panic, ran around leaving a bunch of incriminating forensic evidence, probably taken Faith's car as opposed to waiting for someone to come get her, then broken down after the first two hours of interrogation once she realized how hopelessly screwed she was.

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One, any unannounced, uninvited male Faith would have opened the door for at 4:30am would have been looked at by police. There is no way any such male was not in her text, phone or email history, and they had/have all of that.

Two, if you look at the scenario I constructed --- a few pages back --- involving KR concluding Faith was flirting with or fooling around with BE behind her back, her going into a murderous rage is quite believable.

Three, your take on how she would have behaved if she had killed Faith in a rage is ludicrous. She could just as easily have seen what a world of danger she was in and acted cooly and calmly in order to get herself out of said danger. She is an intelligent girl.

The only stumbling block with the KR-did-it theory is the male DNA evidence, which I fully admit is a pretty serious stumbling block.

Does anyone remember it being said that police found DNA beneath Faith's fingernails? If so, this would seem a crucial piece of evidence. Now, if this DNA was tested and was the same as the male DNA found elsewhere, that would pretty much end any speculation re KR: the perpetrator would clearly be this male, and the only question would be why LE haven't identified this male. My view is that is if this is the case, the reason LE haven't identified this male is because he was not from her social circle and was instead some creeper/peeper type who was living in a nearby apartment, had been watching the girls for some time and had developed a fascination with them but who for one reason or another did not have his name on a lease or escaped police attention.

However, if this piece of evidence exists --- the DNA beneath the fingernails --- why isn't it mentioned more often? Perhaps I'll look into this now.

J.M. Bee said:

One, any unannounced, uninvited male Faith would have opened the door for at 4:30am would have been looked at by police. There is no way any such male was not in her text, phone or email history, and they had/have all of that.

Two, if you look at the scenario I constructed --- a few pages back --- involving KR concluding Faith was flirting with or fooling around with BE behind her back, her going into a murderous rage is quite believable.

Three, your take on how she would have behaved if she had killed Faith in a rage is ludicrous. She could just as easily have seen what a world of danger she was in and acted cooly and calmly in order to get herself out of said danger. She is an intelligent girl.

The only stumbling block with the KR-did-it theory is the male DNA evidence, which I fully admit is a pretty serious stumbling block.

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There is a "way" it could have happened without a phone call or a text. I've been in that situation before. I had a boyfriend who lived out of town, and one day he came to surprise me at 5 AM. I opened the door. There was no text and no phone call.

J.M. Bee said:

Does anyone remember it being said that police found DNA beneath Faith's fingernails? If so, this would seem a crucial piece of evidence. Now, if this DNA was tested and was the same as the male DNA found elsewhere, that would pretty much end any speculation re KR: the perpetrator would clearly be this male, and the only question would be why LE haven't identified this male. My view is that is if this is the case, the reason LE haven't identified this male is because he was not from her social circle and was instead some creeper/peeper type who was living in a nearby apartment, had been watching the girls for some time and had developed a fascination with them but who for one reason or another did not have his name on a lease or escaped police attention.

However, if this piece of evidence exists --- the DNA beneath the fingernails --- why isn't it mentioned more often? Perhaps I'll look into this now.

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Per the autopsy report is states there was blood, but no solid fragments or apparent tissue, underneath the intact, undamaged fingernails. Fingernail swabbings were obtained.


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Another thing: KR says in the 911 call, "there is blood everywhere," meaning that whoever perpetrated this crime would have had blood on him or her. This would seem to be another strike against the KR-did-it theory, as she was picked up by the friend at 4:30am. She might have showered and cleaned up, but you think LE would have found evidence of a blood clean-up process, no? Yet wouldn't this be the case regardless of who perpetrated the crime? Even if a (stranger) male had committed the crime, wouldn't he have cleaned up before leaving as well?

Skigirl said:

There is a "way" it could have happened without a phone call or a text. I've been in that situation before. I had a boyfriend who lived out of town, and one day he came to surprise me at 5 AM. I opened the door. There was no text and no phone call.

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Right, but such a boyfriend would be in your text, call, email history, would be known to police and would have been looked at. They wouldn't be looking in her/your texts/calls for only that night; they would look at the entire history for the prior six months (if not longer).

Another thing I think is strange (though I know this has been mentioned here before): I'm re-watching the 20/20 special now. Do you who appears on camera? Marisol Rangel. Do you know who doesn't? KR. Now, I imagine there could be a number of reasons for this, but if your close friend was murdered, why not appear on 20/20? Why is Marisol there to talk about Faith but not Karena? I find it a little odd.

J.M. Bee said:

Two other things: one, KR says in the 911 call, "there is blood everywhere," meaning that whoever perpetrated this crime would have had blood on him or her. This would seem to be another strike against the KR-did-it theory, as she was picked up by the friend at 4:30am. She might have showered and cleaned up, but you think LE would have found evidence of a blood clean-up process, no? Yet wouldn't this be the case regardless of who perpetrated the crime? Even if a (stranger) male had committed the crime, wouldn't he have cleaned up before leaving as well?

Two, in the timeline maintained by "Justice for Faith" --- see link below --- I don't see any record of a call or text to the guy who comes to pick KR up 4:30am. How did he know to come pick her up? Anyone know when/how they communicated?

http://www.justiceforfaith.com/timeline-2012.html

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Per phone records JM picked up KR at 4:27AM on 9/07/12. Not sure if that was a text or phone call.


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Investigator on 20/20 says that KR texted JM. They must have forgotten to add it to that "Justice for Faith" timeline.