WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #3
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I will look for it, but it will be next week before I can get to it. Can't download the picture but could copy and send it to someone who could. My printer and scanner are not set up yet.
I asked the fire dept about the questions Marian had in her letter I have on my comp. Here are their answers.
Carla,
Again, I do not like to speculate but will try and answer your questions as best I can.
1. There was no screaming from the children. Is this typical?
If the children died in their sleep from smoke inhalation there would most likely be no screaming.
2. We could not smell any burning flesh, something we are sure that with five children we would have smelled. Could a strong wind have totally taken that away?
I was not around in 45 to know for sure, but I have been on many fatal fires in today's type of construction materials. There are so many different fumes and odors present at a fire scene due to the many types of materials that have burned, you may or may not get a distinctive flesh odor, more often than not we just smell burned odors from plastics, paint, household chemicals and things like that.
3. The fire is believed to have begun on the roof, yet we were told that this fire was due to electrical. I would think the fire would have started in the walls had it been due to a fire. What do you think?
I cannot speculate on this one, but I will say electrical wires often traveled in attic areas and inner roof supports in older balloon frame construction. I have also seen lightning start fires on roof areas.
4. We were told as stated above that this fire was due to faulty electrical problems, yet the lights of our home remained lit, even as the fire progressed. Have you ever witnessed such an event, where although it was an electrical fire, the lights stayed on throughout most of the fire? If you have, would you say this is typical?
What I do know is that even in older home wiring, homes were divided into different circuits, often fused in those days, mostly breakers these days. Based on that school of thought it would be possible to have 1 circuit short out or blow the fuse, and the power remain on in a different circuit of the house. Many times we arrive to find the main power is still live during the process of us fighting the fire, that is why we often request the power company to expedite. Sometimes even after the fire burns the main feed wire into, the wire falls to the ground and is still live from that point to the pole, sometimes even arcing or jumping around.
Once again, I can image how bad this experience would have been for the family, and I know they have doubts and or hopes as to the outcome. I realize they are searching for the truth as to what really happened, and I really don't think that can truly be determined at this point over 50 years later. So many things have changed since then, included the training we receive to investigate fires, and DNA and forensic testing. Fire departments in those days, especially rural departments just were not trained at the levels we are today, and they did not have the equipment or resources that we have now. Even with modern technology, and a highly trained and skilled investigator such as a fire marshal, sometimes even today we do not always know for sure exactly what happened on every fire. As a fire chief and almost 30 years of experience I can recognize the pain of the family with unanswered questions. I would remind them that even through we can never go back and change what happened that night, they can take steps to prevent this from happening again by installing smoke detectors and recognize signs of faulty wiring or other hazards. Again I am sorry for your loss.
Scott Schill
Fire Chief
Bedington VFD - Martinsburg, WV
Carla,
Again, I do not like to speculate but will try and answer your questions as best I can.
1. There was no screaming from the children. Is this typical?
If the children died in their sleep from smoke inhalation there would most likely be no screaming.
2. We could not smell any burning flesh, something we are sure that with five children we would have smelled. Could a strong wind have totally taken that away?
I was not around in 45 to know for sure, but I have been on many fatal fires in today's type of construction materials. There are so many different fumes and odors present at a fire scene due to the many types of materials that have burned, you may or may not get a distinctive flesh odor, more often than not we just smell burned odors from plastics, paint, household chemicals and things like that.
3. The fire is believed to have begun on the roof, yet we were told that this fire was due to electrical. I would think the fire would have started in the walls had it been due to a fire. What do you think?
I cannot speculate on this one, but I will say electrical wires often traveled in attic areas and inner roof supports in older balloon frame construction. I have also seen lightning start fires on roof areas.
4. We were told as stated above that this fire was due to faulty electrical problems, yet the lights of our home remained lit, even as the fire progressed. Have you ever witnessed such an event, where although it was an electrical fire, the lights stayed on throughout most of the fire? If you have, would you say this is typical?
What I do know is that even in older home wiring, homes were divided into different circuits, often fused in those days, mostly breakers these days. Based on that school of thought it would be possible to have 1 circuit short out or blow the fuse, and the power remain on in a different circuit of the house. Many times we arrive to find the main power is still live during the process of us fighting the fire, that is why we often request the power company to expedite. Sometimes even after the fire burns the main feed wire into, the wire falls to the ground and is still live from that point to the pole, sometimes even arcing or jumping around.
Once again, I can image how bad this experience would have been for the family, and I know they have doubts and or hopes as to the outcome. I realize they are searching for the truth as to what really happened, and I really don't think that can truly be determined at this point over 50 years later. So many things have changed since then, included the training we receive to investigate fires, and DNA and forensic testing. Fire departments in those days, especially rural departments just were not trained at the levels we are today, and they did not have the equipment or resources that we have now. Even with modern technology, and a highly trained and skilled investigator such as a fire marshal, sometimes even today we do not always know for sure exactly what happened on every fire. As a fire chief and almost 30 years of experience I can recognize the pain of the family with unanswered questions. I would remind them that even through we can never go back and change what happened that night, they can take steps to prevent this from happening again by installing smoke detectors and recognize signs of faulty wiring or other hazards. Again I am sorry for your loss.
Scott Schill
Fire Chief
Bedington VFD - Martinsburg, WV
I have not given up. I want to prove that either the children DID die or DID NOT die in that fire. If they did, I think we need some definite proof, not just a possibility or a probability. If they did not, we need to find out what happened to them, why they never came back, and what they know, IE --- If we find one of them, do they know what happened to their brothers or sisters?
Granddaughter
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My mom thought you might be interested in the attached document. I have not seen in elsewhere before. We calculated the date as approximately 1951 based on the comment on page 3 that "Maurice would now be 20 years old."
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Teresa Larson
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Thank you for posting this Granddaughter! This confirms some of the things I have been saying all along. The house burned to the ground in about 35 minutes. Which tells you that the fire burned hot and fast BUT not long enough to cremate the children's bodies and even if they died of smoke inhalation there would have been some bones left there after the fire. It also says the Mafia was probably involved I am sure that's the reason the people that investigated this did a very poor job. They knew why and how it happened and weren't about to risk their own lives. I wish we could talk to someone that was living around the area when it happened. This many years later they might be willing to talk.
Do we have any people in West Virginia? If we do, we could have someone go door to door. Someone who has lived there their whole lives, and was in their teens or early twenties at the time, may still be alive and may be willing to talk. Or families of the people there at the time.
Hi everyone. This is my 1st post, so I'm sorry it's so long. I just have a lot of questions I've been wanting to ask, mainly about the Cipriani side of the family, and I was hoping maybe Granddaughter could ask her mother about it.
I don't want to sound like I'm accusing anyone, especially part of their family, but since Mr. Sodder went all the way to FL to try to get answers and didn't get them, I think it's worth exploring. If they were involved, it may have been to protect them as others have suggested.
Why was the man who threatened them before the fire upset that Mr. Sodder wouldn't settle his father-in-law's estate? Had there been a falling out between Mrs. Sodder and her family, maybe after her father's death? Were they contesting the will? Why did this man care? Was he an attorney for any of the Ciprianis or connected to them in any other way? Did the Ciprianis have pull with the other leaders of the community? Do you think they had mob ties?
Why were the 2 oldest sons listed twice in the 1930 census, shown living with both the Sodders and Ciprianis? Did they live with their grandparents a while, or did they spend of lot of time staying there?
Could "I love brother Frankie" be referring to to Frank Cipriani, or maybe his son, Frank Jr.? Could one of Jennie's other siblings sent it, and maybe written that as an explanation for not doing anything to stop it or to let her know where their loyalty still lies? Or maybe one of the Cipriani or Sodder kids wrote it about Frank Jr. just playing around.
I would think Mr. Sodder's trip to FL would have strained the relationship with Frank's branch of the family, but I hoped Sylvia could share what the relationship was like overall with the Ciprianis as she grew up. Were they close to her grandmother? What about her aunts and uncles?
I think if they were involved it could explain why the kids never came back, especially if they were convinced the mob killed the rest of their family, and that relatives saved them and changed their identities to protect them.
Am I completely off-track?
I don't want to sound like I'm accusing anyone, especially part of their family, but since Mr. Sodder went all the way to FL to try to get answers and didn't get them, I think it's worth exploring. If they were involved, it may have been to protect them as others have suggested.
Why was the man who threatened them before the fire upset that Mr. Sodder wouldn't settle his father-in-law's estate? Had there been a falling out between Mrs. Sodder and her family, maybe after her father's death? Were they contesting the will? Why did this man care? Was he an attorney for any of the Ciprianis or connected to them in any other way? Did the Ciprianis have pull with the other leaders of the community? Do you think they had mob ties?
Why were the 2 oldest sons listed twice in the 1930 census, shown living with both the Sodders and Ciprianis? Did they live with their grandparents a while, or did they spend of lot of time staying there?
Could "I love brother Frankie" be referring to to Frank Cipriani, or maybe his son, Frank Jr.? Could one of Jennie's other siblings sent it, and maybe written that as an explanation for not doing anything to stop it or to let her know where their loyalty still lies? Or maybe one of the Cipriani or Sodder kids wrote it about Frank Jr. just playing around.
I would think Mr. Sodder's trip to FL would have strained the relationship with Frank's branch of the family, but I hoped Sylvia could share what the relationship was like overall with the Ciprianis as she grew up. Were they close to her grandmother? What about her aunts and uncles?
I think if they were involved it could explain why the kids never came back, especially if they were convinced the mob killed the rest of their family, and that relatives saved them and changed their identities to protect them.
Am I completely off-track?
Teresa Larson
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I don't think you are off at all. Anything is possible. You have brought up some interesting questions.
Granddaughter
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I had promised to post photos of Mom and Mary Ann (Marion) when they were close to the age Louis would have been in the photo that my grandmother received. They are posted on the photo page.
I know you'd like to see the boys (Joe, John, and Ted), but Mom doesn't have any photos of them from that age. The ones we have are much older. We do have a couple of photos of Joe from the military, but you can't see his facial features, just the long, lean shape.
Which brings up the height issue also. FYI - in case you have success and are looking for similarities - my grandmother was very short (maybe 4'10"), and my mom is about 4'11." Marion was about 5'4." Joe was nearly 6' tall. My grandfather, John, and Ted fall somewhere in the middle. There was a wide variance in body size and shape.
I know you'd like to see the boys (Joe, John, and Ted), but Mom doesn't have any photos of them from that age. The ones we have are much older. We do have a couple of photos of Joe from the military, but you can't see his facial features, just the long, lean shape.
Which brings up the height issue also. FYI - in case you have success and are looking for similarities - my grandmother was very short (maybe 4'10"), and my mom is about 4'11." Marion was about 5'4." Joe was nearly 6' tall. My grandfather, John, and Ted fall somewhere in the middle. There was a wide variance in body size and shape.
I think you made some very good points.
"I Love Brother Frankie" -Could it mean I love your brother Frankie (Mrs. Sodder's brother). He is the one who was involved in saving us.
90132-35 - This is where I am living in Italy. But I am safe.
"ilil boys"- Maybe a hint that this is really me (Louis). Something that perhaps Mrs. Sodder called him as a little boy.
I hadn't thought of the possibility of Louis or one of the other kids sending the picture, but that would make sense.
It had been a few months since I first heard of this case and read all the posts and articles, so I couldn't remember all of the details. I had forgotten Janutolo's name, so I reread that part today. No matter which Janutolo it was, neither one was a lawyer; both were businessmen. It seems like he would almost have to be connected to the Ciprianis in some way or have some vested interest in the estate. Could he have wanted to buy property from Joseph Cipriani's estate but couldn't since it hadn't been settled? I know wills and land records are made public, but I wonder what other details of the estate settlement can be read in public documents.
It had been a few months since I first heard of this case and read all the posts and articles, so I couldn't remember all of the details. I had forgotten Janutolo's name, so I reread that part today. No matter which Janutolo it was, neither one was a lawyer; both were businessmen. It seems like he would almost have to be connected to the Ciprianis in some way or have some vested interest in the estate. Could he have wanted to buy property from Joseph Cipriani's estate but couldn't since it hadn't been settled? I know wills and land records are made public, but I wonder what other details of the estate settlement can be read in public documents.
But why would George and Jennie continue to so publicly and actively look for their children if they thought it was a revenge(mob, family, or whatever) kidnapping? They would know that this is the reason and they wouldn't have been so public about their search for fear of reprisal against them and the children. I think if this was the case they would have never put up two billboards, searched the property for bones, went to New York to find the little girl in the picture, etc. I honestly don't think they ever knew what happened to their children because if it was a mob hit or a family hit they would have went along with believing at least publicly that they died in the fire. If it was a mob hit because George wouldn't pay money to them then George would have known that. He would have been told so that he would start paying money to keep any more bad things from happening to the family. Does this make sense?
christine2448
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Rhett, I see what you mean and you made some good points. I don't think the Sodders knew for sure who did it and just tried to follow every lead they got, but they did go public about a lot of their suspicions. The media articles didn't name Mr. Janutolo by name, but it was known of the man who made the threats. Mr. Sodder's trip to Florida was also made public.
Who knows? Like people keep saying, nothing seems to make complete sense. I know there are holes in all the theories I read and come up with myself. It just seems that a lot of people were involved, and it seems to me that Janutolo would probably be one of the main ones behind it after his threat that was so specific.
I just have a feeling that some extended family may have been involved too, but there's no real evidence against them. Maybe they were planning to be part of arson only, and like others suggested, maybe the phone call was supposed to wake them up so they would pay but not die in the fire. Then when the kids were outside, they may have seen too much. Maybe the only options to keep them from talking would be to kill them or take them out of the country.
Again, there are holes. It doesn't seem like they would have believed their captors and stayed gone all these years if that were the case. I'm still baffled!
Who knows? Like people keep saying, nothing seems to make complete sense. I know there are holes in all the theories I read and come up with myself. It just seems that a lot of people were involved, and it seems to me that Janutolo would probably be one of the main ones behind it after his threat that was so specific.
I just have a feeling that some extended family may have been involved too, but there's no real evidence against them. Maybe they were planning to be part of arson only, and like others suggested, maybe the phone call was supposed to wake them up so they would pay but not die in the fire. Then when the kids were outside, they may have seen too much. Maybe the only options to keep them from talking would be to kill them or take them out of the country.
Again, there are holes. It doesn't seem like they would have believed their captors and stayed gone all these years if that were the case. I'm still baffled!
You and me, both. I can see the youngest falling into another life and not having too many solid memories of being with their family, but the older ones baffle me also.
I wonder if there is any way possible the Sodder children forum could be cleaned up-it has turned into a *advertiser censored* site-and the *advertiser censored* being blocked so it doesn't come back after it is deleted. I would love for the site to stay up-without the *advertiser censored*.
bluesky
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First time post. I have been reading for awhile and am a bit confused. How is Ciprianis and Janutolo related to the case? Are they related to the sodders?
There were 2 Janutolo cousins who were both prominant businessmen in the area at the time, and it's unclear which of the two it was, but one of them had apparently gotten mad at Mr. Sodder a few months before the fire because Sodder wouldn't buy insurance from him or settle his father-in-law's estate. Jennie's dad, Joseph Cipriani, had died the year before the fire. When Janutolo left, he said that Mr. Sodder would pay for all the bad things he had been saying about Mussolini and his house would burn and his children would pay. This isn't an exact quote. I'm going by memory, but most of the articles about the case mention this incident, just not Janutolo's name.
Jennie had a brother named Frank Cipriani who had moved down to Cortez, Fl sometime in the 30's or early 40's. Mr. Sodder used to travel to follow up any clues he got, and at one point he went down to where Frank was living because he heard that some of the kids were living down there. He tried to get help from the authorities to search for them there, but no one would help him and he wasn't able to find out anything. It's interesting that someone claimed to see the kids not long after the fire with people with a Fl license plate.
Jennie had a brother named Frank Cipriani who had moved down to Cortez, Fl sometime in the 30's or early 40's. Mr. Sodder used to travel to follow up any clues he got, and at one point he went down to where Frank was living because he heard that some of the kids were living down there. He tried to get help from the authorities to search for them there, but no one would help him and he wasn't able to find out anything. It's interesting that someone claimed to see the kids not long after the fire with people with a Fl license plate.
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