Trial Discussion Thread #7 weekend thread

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lisasalinger said:
I can't speak for others, only myself... I've never wanted him to be guilty. I'm incredibly sad that a man who had so much inspiration to share with the world pissed it away. Don't be mistaken, he did piss it away all on his own.

His vulnerability and fears do not allow him to act him more recklessly than is reasonable. I don't deny his fears, I believe they are absolutely real. But he intentionally aimed to kill whomever he thought was in that small enclosed room without provocation according to his own statement. A decent person who appreciates human life does not act that recklessly with weapons that are loaded with hollow point bullets.

It's really not about wanting someone to be guilty... it's more about looking at the terrible destruction that he has caused and holding him responsible.
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If he knew that it was Reeva in the toilet, then yes he deserves whatever punishment meted out to him. You say he shot to kill whoever was in the toilet, without provocation. I think the fact that an intruder is in someone's toilet is ample provocation, especially in SA where the crime and gun culture is way too high to feel safe in your own home. There was a door between them. Firing one or two shots does not guarantee that the intruder has been incapacitated. Was OP to hang around waiting to see if the intruder had a gun? An intruder with a gun and 2 good working legs. I think there are people out there who want him to be guilty just for the hell of it. I just feel we don't know enough yet to pass judgement. Hopefully the truth, no matter what, will come to light.
 
I believe she fled to the bathroom to escape his rage.

I believe he tried to get her out using the cricket bat and when that proved useless, shot her out.

Has any info from Reeva's phone come to light yet?

I imagine any SMS she sent would be damning.
 
weeeva said:
If he knew that it was Reeva in the toilet, then yes he deserves whatever punishment meted out to him. You say he shot to kill whoever was in the toilet, without provocation. I think the fact that an intruder is in someone's toilet is ample provocation, especially in SA where the crime and gun culture is way too high to feel safe in your own home. There was a door between them. Firing one or two shots does not guarantee that the intruder has been incapacitated. Was OP to hang around waiting to see if the intruder had a gun? An intruder with a gun and 2 good working legs. I think there are people out there who want him to be guilty just for the hell of it. I just feel we don't know enough yet to pass judgement. Hopefully the truth, no matter what, will come to light.
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I'm all for letting the trial tell the story, I don't disagree on that.

I just want to point out some of the items that you mentioned above... bolded by me.

You say "the fact" that an intruder was in the toilet. This is not fact. There was in fact no intruder.

There was a door in between them. This is a huge point. Oscar never saw an intruder, an intruder did not utter a word, he did not see a weapon... the intruder was a figment of his imagination. There was in fact no provocation because hearing a noise does not constitute provocation. The fact that there was a closed door in between them is exactly the reason why he shouldn't have shot... he should have fled. You cannot just shoot at every random noise you hear.

Firing one or two shots does not guarantee incapacitation. So right there you agree that he intended to kill.

And finally your last very telling point... "was OP to hang around to wait to see if the intruder had a gun?"... EXACTLY. He should not have. He should have located Reeva and exited the bedroom!!!

Please know that I do understand the grave concerns in SA over violent break ins, and have tremendous empathy for the residents there. But OP did not live in an unsecure area. He was in a very secure home, with private estate security, a security alarm (according to Batha)... he had resources that most do not. If he was living in a shack with no security then perhaps I could understand this story... perhaps.
 
weeeva said:
If he knew that it was Reeva in the toilet, then yes he deserves whatever punishment meted out to him. You say he shot to kill whoever was in the toilet, without provocation. I think the fact that an intruder is in someone's toilet is ample provocation, especially in SA where the crime and gun culture is way too high to feel safe in your own home. There was a door between them. Firing one or two shots does not guarantee that the intruder has been incapacitated. Was OP to hang around waiting to see if the intruder had a gun? An intruder with a gun and 2 good working legs. I think there are people out there who want him to be guilty just for the hell of it. I just feel we don't know enough yet to pass judgement. Hopefully the truth, no matter what, will come to light.
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For Gods sake no one "wants" crimes like this to occur!

I often wonder what standard of proof is required for some.

Fortunately all a jury requires is "beyond reasonable doubt".

OP murdered someone that night.

Reeva or a "burglar", whoever it was was clearly unarmed themselves and cowering helplessly in a toilet.

Was the burglar intent on stealing toilet paper?

He shot Whoever intentionally with no restraint.

That's murder, where I live.
 
Hilton Botha and the charges against him (seven charges of attempted murder)

I searched several times for information about Botha's trial but all I know or found is this:


The charges stem from 2011, when Botha and his co-accused Attie Bester and Wynand Lourens were investigating the murder of businesswoman Denise Stratford.

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/botha-trail-set
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March 7, 2013
Det Botha is set to appear in court in May, along with two other officers also accused of opening fire on the taxi.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-21705374
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May 2013
The attempted murder case against Hilton Botha and two former police colleagues has been postponed to August.

The defence team plans to make representations to the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) before the next court date, requesting that the case be struck off the court roll once again.

http://ewn.co.za/2013/05/24/Hilton-Botha-case-postponed
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Botha also denied reports that he and three other cops had been on a drunken bender when opened fire on a minivan taxi while on duty in late 2011. Charges against him and two other officers were dropped last year, but then mysteriously reinstated this month.

Botha said he found that "very strange."

In a detailed account of the incident, Botha told the Daily News he and two other policemen had been tracking a suspect in the brutal murder of Denise Stratford, a 55-year-old woman whose body was found stuffed down a drain near the Pretoria office where she worked. Security guards had reported finding spent bullet cartridge casings and a trail of blood in the parking lot.

Botha said he and the other cops were on the way to a house where they believed one of the murder suspects might be hiding when the taxi drove straight into their path and forced them off the road before speeding off.

[….]

National Police Commissioner Riah Phiyega defended Botha and said the decision by the National Prosecuting Authority to re-instate the charges against him "raises suspicion.”

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/det-botha-speaks-article-1.1270104?pgno=1
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.
.
 
Pisto lius, I am having trouble quoting your post. I only get a part of it so I am doing a straight post instead.

Thanks for finding all this. So still no court case. What's the betting it will fall off the list?
 
weeeva said:
If he knew that it was Reeva in the toilet, then yes he deserves whatever punishment meted out to him. You say he shot to kill whoever was in the toilet, without provocation. I think the fact that an intruder is in someone's toilet is ample provocation, especially in SA where the crime and gun culture is way too high to feel safe in your own home. There was a door between them. Firing one or two shots does not guarantee that the intruder has been incapacitated. Was OP to hang around waiting to see if the intruder had a gun? An intruder with a gun and 2 good working legs. I think there are people out there who want him to be guilty just for the hell of it. I just feel we don't know enough yet to pass judgement. Hopefully the truth, no matter what, will come to light.
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BBM - The point is that OP was under no immediate threat. The alleged intruder was safely shut away in a small toilet, so OP held all the cards. As for whether OP should have waited to see if the intruder had a gun, who do you think was in the better position here? The intruder in a confined space or OP on the outside with his gun? The intruder couldn't hide from the gunshots, and OP felt safe enough to stand opposite the door and shoot through it without seeming concerned that he himself could have been shot.

Plus, just because he thought there was an intruder in his toilet didn't give him the right to fire 4 shots through it knowing he would without doubt kill whoever was on the other side. I understand what you say about how some people just want him to be guilty for the hell of it, but by the same token, I think some people just want to ignore all logic and find any way of justifying what are unjustifiable actions. He was in no imminent danger and had no reason to shoot to kill.
 
SapphireSteel said:
I believe she fled to the bathroom to escape his rage.

I believe he tried to get her out using the cricket bat and when that proved useless, shot her out.

Has any info from Reeva's phone come to light yet?

I imagine any SMS she sent would be damning.
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I doubt she could have sent anything if her left arm was badly broken and her right arm had been shot. :/

What I'd like to know is if there was anything perhaps on her ipad that would be enlightening. ie. pics of the bedroom door, diary of her and OP's relationship....
 
I just think it was so amazing the OP blindly shot trough a solid wood door and hit Reeva
3 out of 4 shots and those three shots ended her life....
 
lisasalinger said:
How about that air gun in the bedroom and hole in the bedroom door.

There are your additional gunshots that the defense claims can only possibly in any scenario imaginable on the face of this planet be a cricket bat hitting a door.
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Just my (changed) speculation ;)

- OP attacked Reeva....

- Reeva wanted to flee.... she run to the bedroom door - not knowing it was locked..... she screamed....

- OP fired the first shot through the bedroom door
(he stood in the bedroom, one cartridge was found close to the bedroom in the passage to the bathroom)....

- this was the first shot neighbours heard..... Reeva screamed louder.....

- then Reeva was able to flee into the toilet room.... OP was getting angrier.... he beat at the bedroom door with his gun and then followed Reeva....

- now neighbous heard Reeva's blood-curdling screams....

- OP fired three further shots through the toilet door....
(three cartridges were found in the bathroom - Reeva was hit three times BUT

Steenkamp had a blue discoloration on her inner right buttocks that could have been caused from the bullet wound to her right hip. "But no projectile could be found," said Saayman.
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Maybe this was the *mysterious* bullet (or cartridge ?) that the DT found in the toilet bowl ?

- this were the other shots neighbours heard....

 
I still honestly believe that even if the judge somehow end's up believing Oscar's fairy story is true she will still see it as murder, the fact is there were two people in that house and one shot the other 4 times, imaginary people in bathrooms don't mean a thing.
 
O/T - I'm an idiot. I just spent hours of my limited energy reading on last week's thread trying to catch up to "live" postings. Even after I finally noticed that the Thread was closed I continued reading because I assumed mods had closed thread due to what I like to call "ws wkend madness." You know, the kind of shut-down that is frequently preceded by very short, outspoken, witty remarks followed by lots of these: :floorlaugh:

On/T: I'm seeing lots of postings here with, new to me info, that you're getting from OP's Bail Affidavit.

Could somebody, without going to trouble of a search, tell me where I can find the affidavit so I don't have to leave the board to Google? Thanks.
 
foxbluff said:
O/T - I'm an idiot. I just spent hours of my limited energy reading on last week's thread trying to catch up to "live" postings. Even after I finally noticed that the Thread was closed I continued reading because I assumed mods had closed thread due to what I like to call "ws wkend madness." You know, the kind of shut-down that is frequently preceded by very short, outspoken, witty remarks followed by lots of these: :floorlaugh:

On/T: I'm seeing lots of postings here with, new to me info, that you're getting from OP's Bail Affidavit.

Could somebody, without going to trouble of a search, tell me where I can find the affidavit so I don't have to leave the board to Google? Thanks.
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Here you go:-

http://www.citypress.co.za/multimedia/full-document-oscar-pistorius-affidavit/
 
foxbluff said:
O/T - I'm an idiot. I just spent hours of my limited energy reading on last week's thread trying to catch up to "live" postings. Even after I finally noticed that the Thread was closed I continued reading because I assumed mods had closed thread due to what I like to call "ws wkend madness." You know, the kind of shut-down that is frequently preceded by very short, outspoken, witty remarks followed by lots of these: :floorlaugh:

On/T: I'm seeing lots of postings here with, new to me info, that you're getting from OP's Bail Affidavit.

Could somebody, without going to trouble of a search, tell me where I can find the affidavit so I don't have to leave the board to Google? Thanks.
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Oh, I'm so glad it wasn't just me! I got totally befuddled too.

ETA, Bail affidavit

http://www.pod702.co.za/Eyewitnessnews/docs/130219oscar_papers.pdf
 
Interested Bystander said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ost-senior-detective-defends-police-case.html


Lieutenant General Vineshkumar Moonoo, who was drafted in to take over the high-profile probe after the detective originally leading it was discredited, told the Telegraph he was still confident that police had a very strong case.
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Hold on a second, according to that article further character witness's are also lined up to testify against him including "the estate manager who he said he called first".
Really???.
 
zwiebel said:
Oh, I'm so glad it wasn't just me! I got totally befuddled too.

ETA, Bail affidavit

http://www.pod702.co.za/Eyewitnessnews/docs/130219oscar_papers.pdf
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lol - I think you're just being generous by saying you were befuddled, too. Quite honestly, I don't believe for a minute that you, along w/four other posters here on OP, have ever been befuddled by anything ever. :)

And, thanks so much for the link! On the other thread you had posted "Part of OP's bail affidavit" which fasinated me seeing so much of this "story" in OP's own words. Wanted to ask right then&there where I could find doc, but... thread closed.

Then I finally find you guys here and there's all this talk about locked bdrm door (which I knew about) and a shot through that one too... wow, first time I'm hearing about that! Good grief... what all did take place that fatal night???

I'm staying onbrd for now as I love to watch "live postings" from peeps who know sooo much more than I do. :)

(I'll printout a copy of the coveted doc just before I sign off today.) Ty.
 
foxbluff said:
Good lord that was quick... and very thougthful... thank you so very much.:loveyou:
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LOL

Here is the trial statement he gave in which was different from his Bail Hearing Statement. I can only find it within a Newspaper report but I am sure it must be somewhere as a pdf or similar. Anyway, you can find it here but I cannot guarantee it is complete. What we really need is the statement Olwage read on OP's behalf.

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/oscar-trial-first-morning

It is as I thought - not verbatim. Where it says Reeva woke up, OP says he spoke to her. So the reporting is a bit off.

I will keep looking for the original, unless someone posts it before I get there.
 
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