Trial Discussion Thread #59 - 14.21.10, Day 48 ~ sentencing~

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Hey foxbluff,
Are you sure you got the word presenter correct? Presenter is not a word in Afrikaans. However, present is - it means gift. Presenteer means present - as in presentation. Can you send me a link to where you saw/read this word so I can try to figure it out with context?

Yes, the statement that white people are not Afrikaans is absolutely incorrect! The white people is South Africa are probably 50% who speaks Afrikaans as their first language (of whom ALL speak English also, because English as a second language is mandatory in Afrikaans schools). Of those who speak English as their first language, only few know Afrikaans because the Afrikaans language is optional to learn as a second language in school.

From his accent, I do believe that Oscar is English, but he can probably speak/understand Afrikaans as well. Afrikaans speakers have distinct English accents that are different from native English speakers - you can hear the difference between say the Myers' accent and Nel's/Roux's accents.

Here is a chart that shows the distribution of white South Africans by province and first language:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_white_South_Africans

Hope this helps!

Oh, I'm so glad you were still onboard to see my questions. Thank you so much for your helpful response. I love the way you expanded your answers, teaching me other interesting things about SA.

I'm pushed for time right now, but first thing tomorrow I'll try to backtrack to find the link where I believe I saw the puzzling word "presenter."

Hope to see you here tomorrow.
 
I think those tears came from remembering the devastating pain of when she found out he was cheating on her. I think this because I had a fiance once who cheated on me, and I still cry about the pain it caused, but not for him, and not about regret that things didn't turn out the way it did. MOO

I have found it interesting how different women react to their men cheating on them. To my knowledge, no man has ever cheated on me and I have dated many men in my life. I have never cheated on any man either for that matter. I end the relationship first.

However, my best girlfriend's husband has cheated on her. I decided to warn her one day that a woman we both knew told me she was seeing my friend's husband and had been doing so for some time. She did not seem to be at all worried about it. They are still together.

I have also been a relationship counsellor and I used to think that one should not forgive a guy who cheated on you. However, I began to change my opinion over the years especially if they had children, a house and they still loved each other. I worked on forgiveness and strengthening their relationship in all areas. This was because it often appeared that one or both partners' needs were not being satisfied in some areas. One was neglecting the other or they were both too busy with work or children. I used to have this Needs Satisfaction Test I would do with them where they had to scale each area according to their satisfaction level. We would then work on the weaknesses and honour the strengths. It worked.

I don't know why Sam did not go to the Olympic Games even on her own accord. Surely her parents could have lent her the money for the airfare. I would be there if my boyfriend was participating to support him. I was there and saw Oscar compete.

I have found it difficult to believe that Pete Van Zyl could not get her a ticket. I flew into Manchester rather than London and caught a train down to London. I also would have booked it earlier but mine was booked at the last minute. There are always many ways to get to a place.

Did Sam expect OP to pay for a first class ticket or something? I never expect a man to pay for me. For me it has always been strange that she did not go. I agree one had to buy the event tickets early but surely OP could have got some. They had known each other for 15 months then. I believe in being available to your loved one otherwise you run the risk of losing them to someone else and both parties feel neglected. OP had probably been in Italy for a while so they may not have seen each other for some time.

So it seems to me that Sam was feeling neglected so she agreed to a holiday with Quentin. Of course, OP was jealous. Long distance relationships usually do not work especially when you are young. I often wonder what would have happened if Sam had gone to the Olympics. If I loved a man, I couldn't have stayed away.

I do not have Trish Taylor's book and I realise that there were many other problems with OP. But before he went to Italy, I probably would have broken it off then if it was not already organised that I would be there with him as his focus had to be on the preparation for the Games. I am a practical type of gal and don't like sitting at home pining over a man who is too busy to be with me - especially at her tender age. There are plenty of others to meet.

But if I had been counseling Sam, I would have realised that OP had narcissistic tendencies and OP would not be the type of guy that would even worry about their partner's needs so best to run while she could. Trish Taylor apparently had some education in psychology so it is a wonder she did not know about NPD.

IMO the NPD was more of a concern than a guy cheating on you as there would be no happy future anyway and most guys with NPD cheat. When I was young, we did not know about NPD so I have dated a few in the past which were a waste of time. Nowadays, as soon as I recognise that a guy has NPD, I am off before I have a chance to fall in love with him!

I just found this:

South Africa: RH v DE – adultery no longer a ground for damages
dated September 29. 2014!

http://thelawthinker.com/south-africa-rh-v-de-adultery-no-longer-a-ground-for-damages/
 
I have been reading posts that the State cannot appeal the verdict..

Was Judge Grant incorrect? :confused:

Tweets:

FYI - Grant us not a judge or practicing attorney. He is a law professor.
 
The dust is settled. It’s finally over (at least for the time being).

How do I feel?

Honestly, little more than incredibly, profoundly SAD.

Yes, tearfully sad.

While I, along with millions of others, am merely a long-distance observer, I still feel a powerful sense of loss.

No rational, well-adjusted person can take pleasure in the dire misfortunes and destruction of human life, lost human potential, dashed dreams, crushed futures - no matter the cause or circumstances. The human heart naturally gravitates toward hope, love, the individual and common good. It’s the only way we survive and thrive. I may be passionate, often opinionated, sometimes very angry when discussing this case, but I take no delight in human misery. The destruction of one of us makes us all LESS.

I grieve the loss, the potential, the glittering future of the warm, generous, intelligent, loving Reeva Steenkamp, her family’s shattered lives and lost happiness. A million stories are her story. It breaks my heart on a personal level, as I could have easily been one of those stories.

But if I’m honest, I also grieve the loss of what was once the best of Oscar Pistorius, what he once was, his lost innocence, the best of what he represented, the lives he touched, the hope he did indeed inspire, the great causes he might have championed after his athletic career. No one can ever take away his dedication, his hard work, his successes, his medals, his good deeds. Now just memories.

A rising star, snuffed out.
A blazing star, burnt out.
Two lost lives.
What could have been.

Yes, Oscar will pay dearly for his crime.
But I sincerely take no joy.

Ah, Lux et Veritas. Light and truth. Both have been casualties in this case and therein, as you've so eloquently expressed, lies our bitter harvest. There can be no doubt that both Reeva and Oscar's lives ended that fateful night. Yes, but he can carry on living, is the popular refrain. Make no mistake, as cold-blooded and narcissistic as he appears (perhaps justifiably), when he pulled that trigger he consigned himself to a living death. Alone with his fears, behind the bars of his own making, he might just wish he'd taken his chances with a warning shot into the shower.

If any joy at all can be squeezed out of this misery, it's the innate passion for justice that mirrors the outrage expressed by so many. It gives me some measure of comfort that people separated by country and culture can come together, as we've done here, to rage against the dying of the light.

Thanks for all your wonderful posts. Along with your heartfelt insights and acerbic humor, I've learnt from you the fine art of writing mod-proof expletives.
 
I agree with you that they loved each other:

Just watch this video of them in the Seychelles in September, 2012:

[video=youtube;ZWLGzXw6NbM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWLGzXw6NbM[/video]

But their love turned to hate! You can only really hate someone when you have loved them.

IMO he became involved with Reeva on the rebound of feeling rejected by Sam with Quentin and her feeling rejected by him when she heard he took Reeva to the Sports Awards. I think he only really took Reeva to the Awards Night to make Sam jealous and to pay her back from going away with Quentin. That same day he had confronted Quentin at the race day. It was far too early for him to get involved with Reeva emotionally or seriously.

Now IMO this post shows insight which is reasonably possibly true. Then there was also 'babyshoes'. Hypothetically, he was still emotionally attached, possibly grieving ST; Reeva was new in his life; he seemed critical of her (demonstrated by her texts); she was blond, beautiful & educated, but she didn't
quite fit for him. It was only a 3 month relationship during which time he is alleged to have related with other romantic interests. No way did she deserve to be shot to death and have her 'brains blown out' by his hand.
 
So Greenland is a more reliable source for the Appeal information than Grant would be?

I'm not sure. I am not saying Grant is not reliable - just mentioning that he is not a judge.
 
I am sure this has been posted somewhere in these threads already but I'm seeing it for the first time and am interested in reading word for word:

South Africa: OSCAR PISTORIUS FULL JUDGMENT (PDF)

Eagerly awaiting our WS legal contributors' post-mortem analysis of this verdict. We are fortunate to have such contributors on this thread IMO. Thank you for contributing to our discussions and our thinking.
 
Couldn"t agree more . . enthralling and breathtaking . .Please don't stop discussion. It is SO helpful to us laypeople - though I am not always sure whether I get ALL the true meaning and fine details. HAHA

On a sidenote to OZe. Great pleasure to read all your posts, beautifully written, on the spot, with a loveable poetic touch. You could be a professional writer - are you ? ;)

Thank you, Saint Paul. From time to time I've thought there might be a book in me, but looks like it's not coming out without surgery. :eek:
 
I just read some of professor Grant's opinions and posts - seems he is leading the crowd of "Masipa made an error in law." I do not completely agree with his analysis and reasoning. He is focusing on one or two sentences of the judgment, and he does not even quote them accurately, and he ignores the context of the whole judgment and certain factual findings that justify Masipa's judgment (although many disagree with those factual findings)
 
Now IMO this post shows insight which is reasonably possibly true. There there was also babyshoes.

Thanks for the compliment.

Now about babyshoes. OP cheated on Sam with babyshoes first and then Reeva. Is that correct?

I see babyshoes as the backup girl and possibly a confidante. The one OP phones or dates when there is nobody else available and he is feeling neglected or lonely or wants to confide in someone. Their mothers knew each other so there could be a feeling of connection to his mother through her and her family. It is possibly a sentimental attachment - a girl who knew him when he was younger. They could have casual sex occasionally as long as she does not have a steady boyfriend (or she cheats on him, of course). As Sam saw a picture of Jenna on his bed on Instagram, we can assume they had sex but not necessarily so. The pic could have been taken specially to make Sam jealous to pay her back for having a holiday with Quentin depending on when the pic was taken. Jenna and OP could also be "mates" who have tried to have a relationship, it did not work but they still keep in touch - sex or no sex. As I have only been married for 13 years in my life (as once was enough), I have had such friends over the years. We phone each other occasionally and catch up when in town. Often these men stay in my life longer than the steady ones have. They feel comfortable like putting on an old pair of shoes but there is no commitment but in OP's case, "babyshoes"! :loveyou:

However, I am always open and honest when I see other men if I do happen to have a steady boyfriend and certainly would even introduce them to my current boyfriend if he wanted to meet them as they are platonic friends but if my partner did not approve, then I would not see them. I wonder what Sam knows about Jenna and if she told the Prosecution.
 
It's a heart breaking read and written very well. Thanks for that. I personally have never been exposed to any violence whatsoever, so I can just imagine.

I don't think the Steenkamps will ever feel "gratitude".
Someone posted a photo upthread, and I agree you can see relief on their faces that the trial is over. Nothing more - nothing less.

Oh dear, Paul_1900 has been kidnapped by someone who writes perfect English. Can we open a thread?
 
More fuel to add to the fire,

Australian T.V presenter, Karl Stefanovic slams 'repulsive' Oscar Pistorius sentence.

Oscar Pistorius's jail sentence for killing his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp is "repulsive" and sends a message to women that they should feel unsafe, TODAY host Karl Stefanovic says.

"The message she (the judge) sent out was that if you kill your girlfriend by shooting her through the bathroom door ... you will only get 10 months in jail.

"The cost of life, her life, Reeva's life, is effectively rendered insignificant."


http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...-oscar-pistorius-sentence#Oo3i2KHhWpdWZZfh.99
 
FYI - Grant us not a judge or practicing attorney. He is a law professor.

Thanks. I posted his tweets in my post you quoted..he said that the state can appeal..I actually was looking for feedback on that. I guess if he is a law professor then he must be correct...at least I hope so.
 
This is definitely not going to be an easy transition for him
I imagine most of the prisoners find it hard to begin with, not just him. He'll get used to the routine in a few weeks though. I was more surprised to read that they have supper at 4pm!
 
I am sure this has been posted somewhere in these threads already but I'm seeing it for the first time and am interested in reading word for word:

South Africa: OSCAR PISTORIUS FULL JUDGMENT (PDF)

I've only read through page 10 of 73 and I've already come across factual errors.

In the very beginning of the judgment on page 2: "The house with a double storey with the main bedroom on the first floor, the accused slept in the main bedroom which had en suite facilities..."

Umm, the main bedroom was on the second floor. Did she not remember all the nonsense regarding the ladder? How OP attempted to justify thinking an intruder would enter his small bathroom window on the 2nd floor by saying workers left a ladder out and unsecured?! Even though it was argued there would have been an easier entry route for an intruder like the broken window on the 1st floor or his balcony door that was wide open??

And then on page 10 under common cause facts: "- that the deceased sustained a wound on the right thigh, a wound on the upper left arm, a head injury and a wound on the web of the fingers"

First of all, it was her hip bone that was hit and shattered, not her thigh. But more importantly, it wasn't her upper left arm, it was her right. It was the arm Mangena testified at length about when he described the defensive position Reeva was in as she tried to protect her head from all those damn bullets that kept coming through the closed door. It was the arm Wollie testified at length about regarding the wood splinters around the gunshot wound because it was the DT's case that she was reaching for the handle to open the door.

I realize these are minor errors, but they are errors nonetheless. Masipa and her assessors had a month to deliberate and prepare this judgment. Between the three of them, none of them caught these mistakes? Such carelessness truly makes one wonder how competently they looked at and considered all the evidence.
 
More fuel to add to the fire,

Australian T.V presenter, Karl Stefanovic slams 'repulsive' Oscar Pistorius sentence.

Oscar Pistorius's jail sentence for killing his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp is "repulsive" and sends a message to women that they should feel unsafe, TODAY host Karl Stefanovic says.

"The message she (the judge) sent out was that if you kill your girlfriend by shooting her through the bathroom door ... you will only get 10 months in jail.

"The cost of life, her life, Reeva's life, is effectively rendered insignificant."


http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...-oscar-pistorius-sentence#Oo3i2KHhWpdWZZfh.99

Good on you, Karl - fellow Aussie - for speaking out for Reeva. Actually, there is a lot of interest in this case from Australia and New Zealand. On Twitter in NZ on the day of sentencing, #Oscar Trial was trending No 2.
 
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