Conrad Murray trial -Day seven.

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Linda7NJ said:
I don't really want to get into this ...so this is all I was say about it. My opinions of MJ are not based on the media accounts. My opinions are based on the words of four boys that accused MJ of inappropriate behavior. I believe THEM. I've witnessed MJ's own words and heard his bold face lies. I've seen what he did to himself.
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And I don't care to get into it either because it is very old news now anyway and totally irrelevant to the criminal case against Murray. He was found Not Guilty by 12 Conservative white people on all 14 charges. I read every bit of the actual transcripts of that trial and believed nothing DD was spoon feeding the media on a daily basis. The truth was in the trial.......not in the media. Those were blatant lies.

I have never seen these boys come out and give their statements except the one in the trial who had the mother who had taught her kids to lie since an early age.

I don't just take someone's word for an accusation they make especially if there is a financial motive to lie .

An innocent man spent 23 years in prison because his daughter had falsely accused him of raping her as a child too. It was all a lie and she finally couldn't live with herself anymore and took a polygraph and proved she had lied the entire time. So saying so doesn't mean its so and there has never been any proof that MJ was a pedophile.

imo
 
oceanblueeyes said:
I will try to find the link again that explains it clearly, Talina but from what I remember it is an occurrence that happens after death when the kidneys and liver are no longer functioning causing small amounts to leak into the stomach area.

An expert I saw said it is humanly impossible for someone to overdose on propofol by ingesting it. Only 10% of the amount swallowed would even make it into the blood stream. He could have drank a gallon of the stuff and it still would not have killed him.

Remember the toxic amount was found in his HEART BLOOD that means it went into a vein and had time enough to completely saturate his system and make his breathing stop causing cardiac arrest.

I have always felt Murray was in such a hurry to do other things that the entire 100 ml flooded into MJ and instantly shut his breathing down and caused cardiac arrest.

Since this stuff is so powerful the patient is under sedation in seconds. If MJ had done this himself he would have no time to push all of the propofol in that was found in his system. He also would have been found in a different position. He simply would have crumpled in the position he would have to be in to push the propofol in. Not laying out straight on his back with his arms to his sides with palms up. MJ never moved. He never got up out of that bed. Once that propofol flooded his system he was dead instantly, imo.

This DT theory is a red herring meant to deceive.

IMO
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I think you're absolutely correct.

I was given propofol in the ER to reset my arm after it was broken. I was out in a second, there was no counting backwards, no groggyness just lights out.
 
borndem said:
Tweezy, the only thing I heard that comes close was on an order from May 14, IIRC, and it was something like "hydroquinone for skin lightening," or something close. I was trying to write them all down, and then it just got to be ridiculous and my hand was cramping (not really), so I just gave up. But I did write down the "hydroquinone" word before I stopped.

Hope this helps -- maybe someone else understood it better than I.
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I do remember Walgren stating that after taping MJ on May 10th Murray then reordered more propofol on May 12th.

IMO
 
Linda7NJ said:
I think you're absolutely correct.

I was given propofol in the ER to reset my arm after it was broken. I was out in a second, there was no counting backwards, no groggyness just lights out.
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LOL! I think I can remember getting to 99 when I had to count backward starting at a 100.:floorlaugh:

Other anesthesia makes me sick as a dog. I have had propofol once and if I need anesthesia again I am asking for propofol again!
 
Thundar said:
In response to Oceanblueeyes about the contract (I tried to quote but it was too long for my iPad). The contract was between AEG, Murray, & MJ. MJ was paying Murray but AEG had their lawyer draw up the contract, and they were to enforce the contract. It was a 3 party contract. Clear as mud!
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My understanding is that the parties to the contract were AEG and Conrad Murray's company. AEG contracted Murray and the contract specifies that they were contracting Murray at MJ's expense (very odd way to draft up a contract IMO). I took that to mean that AEG would be paying Murray but it would be deducted in the end from whatever proceeds would be paid over to MJ from his share of the concert revenue.

I thought I heard the AEG lawyer say on the stand that MJ was not a party to the contract but his consent (via his signature) was required in order for the contract to be a valid contract. While that might sound like the same thing, for legalities and contract enforcement, it is not the same for consent to be required versus being an actual party to the contract.

I am not a lawyer but in my line of business I deal with legal documents and contracts a lot and over the past 25 yrs I've been involved in financial documents and contracts that required the consent of a third party but that third party was not a party to the actual document and often times the third party had very little or limited standing to enforce or litigate the majority of the contract.

I believe the way the contract was drafted is what has given Katherine Jackson the ammunition she is using to sue AEG for wrongful death since it was them, not MJ, that hired Dr. Murray per the legal document that evidences him being hired for the concert tour. ETA: That whole lawsuit has me puzzled because how can one sue another over a contract that was never in force since AEG and MJ never signed it, no money was ever paid but that's another topic for another day. AEG tried to have it thrown out for those reasons and the judge denied their request.



IMO
 
oceanblueeyes said:
And I don't care to get into it either because it is very old news now anyway and totally irrelevant to the criminal case against Murray. He was found Not Guilty by 12 Conservative white people on all 14 charges. I read every bit of the actual transcripts of that trial and believed nothing DD was spoon feeding the media on a daily basis. The truth was in the trial.......not in the media. Those were blatant lies.

I have never seen these boys come out and give their statements except the one in the trial who had the mother who had taught her kids to lie since an early age.

I don't just take someone's word for an accusation they make especially if there is a financial motive to lie .

An innocent man spent 23 years in prison because his daughter had falsely accused him of raping her as a child too. It was all a lie and she finally couldn't live with herself anymore and took a polygraph and proved she had lied the entire time. So saying so doesn't mean its so and there has never been any proof that MJ was a pedophile.

imo
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Clearly, you have your opinions and I have mine. The two shall never meet on this topic. I would appreciate it if you would accept that mine came out of the very same information you had based yours and not the media. We just reached different conclusions.

Jurys sometimes get it wrong, that's just a fact. My opinions on any given case are typically not based on the media reports. Like you...I watch trials, read all available documents, view photos, transcripts if available etc...and typically know way more than any jury ever hears. I do not care to be spoon fed anything by anyone...especially the media;)

I will look forward to another case where we are in agreement.
 
Talina said:
My understanding is that the parties to the contract were AEG and Conrad Murray's company. AEG contracted Murray and the contract specifies that they were contracting Murray at MJ's expense (very odd way to draft up a contract IMO). I took that to mean that AEG would be paying Murray but it would be deducted in the end from whatever proceeds would be paid over to MJ from his share of the concert revenue.

I thought I heard the AEG lawyer say on the stand that MJ was not a party to the contract but his consent (via his signature) was required in order for the contract to be a valid contract. While that might sound like the same thing, for legalities and contract enforcement, it is not the same for consent to be required versus being an actual party to the contract.

I am not a lawyer but in my line of business I deal with legal documents and contracts a lot and over the past 25 yrs I've been involved in financial documents and contracts that required the consent of a third party but that third party was not a party to the actual document and often times the third party had very little or limited standing to enforce or litigate the majority of the contract.

I believe the way the contract was drafted is what has given Katherine Jackson the ammunition she is using to sue AEG for wrongful death since it was them, not MJ, that hired Dr. Murray per the legal document that evidences him being hired for the concert tour.

IMO
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BBM

That was my understanding as well.
 
So far, in the coroner investigator's testimony we've heard about 12 bottles of propofol recovered from MJ's residence. I wonder if any were recovered anywhere else (i.e. Murray's clinic or apartment, etc). If not, where the heck is all of it? Did he use all of that propofol? If he did, how on earth can he sit there and say he was weaning him off of it?
 
Thundar said:
Someone else explained this on one of the other day's threads. The saline bag was slit at the top, the propofol seal was sliced, the saline was drained out, and the propofol was upside down in the saline bag. So all that was flowing through the iv was propofol. the saline bag was just the carrier for the propofol. No saline going through at all.
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Thanks for this, I missed that part. WOW! No sane, competent doctor would be giving propofol directly, without the saline, right? That seems very reckless to me. I read somewhere that propofol burns,(as do most anesthetics, probably) so they always administer lidocaine just prior to or with the anesthetic to counteract the burning. I had a reaction to lidocaine during one of my procedures and one nurse told me that it is usually given along with the anesthetic so that the patient is already asleep. In my case, he shot the lidocaine in prior to the anesthetic and it reacted with me. I thought I was having a stroke, scared me half to death.
 
Bluesky#1 said:
CM purchased way more drugs and supplies then he required; no wonder he declared bankruptcy. jmo
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He did seem to like to spend, spend, spend....

I would think if these drugs were all for MJ, which seems to be the case, that the cost of them would certainly be passed over to MJ. And I can't imagine what all that stuff would cost!! Drugs are so horribly expensive, IMO, altho I also understand the front-end research, development, and drug-trial expense that the companies have to spend as a cost of doing business... And those TV commercials can't be cheap, either, and there are so many, many, many of them...

And there's no way this stuff would fit in a little black bag. It surely would take a Black Magic Bus...
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(back OT now)
 
Linda7NJ said:
I think you're absolutely correct.

I was given propofol in the ER to reset my arm after it was broken. I was out in a second, there was no counting backwards, no groggyness just lights out.
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I agree as well. I've been put to sleep a number of times recently, and as soon as that stuff hits my blood stream, I'm out. No drifting into sleep, just bam, lights out, like you said.
I don't think Michael could have drank the stuff, either. Propofol burns, that's why they inject lidocaine with it, to counteract the burning, and the ME would have found evidence of burning in his throat if he injested it orally. The point is, propofol should never have been given outside a hospital setting because the patient needs to be monitored the whole time they are asleep, and even for a few minutes after they wake up. It is dangerous stuff.

I'm not getting into whether Michael was an addict or not. If he wasn't already, he would have been with the array of drugs lined up on that prosecution table that was found in that room. Good lord! He had enough stuff there to knock out dozens of people!!
 
Isabelle said:
I think CM is way too arrogant to be suicidal.
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Oooohhh yes, Isabelle -- You are so right!! Narcissists just love the way they look and act -- there's just nobody else way up there on that high rung of the ladder. At the defense table, his arrogance is just blazing -- the disdain and the "They're wasting my valuable time," look is all over him.

"I'm too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my tie..." and so on.

It's interesting how many narcissists end up at a defense-of-murder table in a courtroom, don't you think? The perfect crime & all that. "I'm too smart for them."

But it usually doesn't work that way, huh?!

Grrrrrrr.
 
AuburnSchnauzer said:
Fact of the matter is that Michael Jackson had CUSTODY of two children that were evidently under HIS care !!! How does that happen? We all know MJ is an addict. JJ claims that she and the family tried to put him into treatment but that didn't happen.....Then, he goes into bankruptcy and loses the ranch and all property and some big entertainment company comes along to be the saviour and his family says OK, along with sis JJ.....Pitiful.
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Unless any of us were present in the Jackson home for the years MJ was not performing we cannot say what went on or whether there was illicit drug use. Drugs that are prescribed by an MD are not illicit. Evidently something very good came of MJ's life during those years and his 3 beautiful children are a testament to that. Not an MJ fan, but one who respects all living things.
 
TxLady2 said:
I agree as well. I've been put to sleep a number of times recently, and as soon as that stuff hits my blood stream, I'm out. No drifting into sleep, just bam, lights out, like you said.
I don't think Michael could have drank the stuff, either. Propofol burns, that's why they inject lidocaine with it, to counteract the burning, and the ME would have found evidence of burning in his throat if he injested it orally. The point is, propofol should never have been given outside a hospital setting because the patient needs to be monitored the whole time they are asleep, and even for a few minutes after they wake up. It is dangerous stuff.

I'm not getting into whether Michael was an addict or not. If he wasn't already, he would have been with the array of drugs lined up on that prosecution table that was found in that room. Good lord! He had enough stuff there to knock out dozens of people!!
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Interesting. Wonder if his throat was tested during autopsy? Wouldn't it have shown up there if that ridiculous theory were true? I doubt his throat was tested, but if it were, I would think the prosecutors would jump on it once they get to reviewing the autopsy in Court.
 
Talina said:
My understanding is that the parties to the contract were AEG and Conrad Murray's company. AEG contracted Murray and the contract specifies that they were contracting Murray at MJ's expense (very odd way to draft up a contract IMO). I took that to mean that AEG would be paying Murray but it would be deducted in the end from whatever proceeds would be paid over to MJ from his share of the concert revenue.

I thought I heard the AEG lawyer say on the stand that MJ was not a party to the contract but his consent (via his signature) was required in order for the contract to be a valid contract. While that might sound like the same thing, for legalities and contract enforcement, it is not the same for consent to be required versus being an actual party to the contract.

I am not a lawyer but in my line of business I deal with legal documents and contracts a lot and over the past 25 yrs I've been involved in financial documents and contracts that required the consent of a third party but that third party was not a party to the actual document and often times the third party had very little or limited standing to enforce or litigate the majority of the contract.

I believe the way the contract was drafted is what has given Katherine Jackson the ammunition she is using to sue AEG for wrongful death since it was them, not MJ, that hired Dr. Murray per the legal document that evidences him being hired for the concert tour. ETA: That whole lawsuit has me puzzled because how can one sue another over a contract that was never in force since AEG and MJ never signed it, no money was ever paid but that's another topic for another day. AEG tried to have it thrown out for those reasons and the judge denied their request.



IMO
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I am pretty sure I heard the contract lady state that MJ was paying Murray. That AEG had nothing to do with paying Murray. That's why I figured it had to be a 3 party contract. One brings the money, one brings the service, one arranges the logistics. But the whole testimony about the contract was contradictory and confusing. I also haven't gone and read the contract and probably won't so I concede that point.

When AEG was testifying about that contract I could not figure out why they would have anything to do with a contract between a Dr. and patient. I can see them having something to do with travel arrangements for the personal DR. but the rest of it is just confusing.
 
Thundar said:
I am pretty sure I heard the contract lady state that MJ was paying Murray. That AEG had nothing to do with paying Murray. That's why I figured it had to be a 3 party contract. One brings the money, one brings the service, one arranges the logistics. But the whole testimony about the contract was contradictory and confusing. I also haven't gone and read the contract and probably won't so I concede that point.

When AEG was testifying about that contract I could not figure out why they would have anything to do with a contract between a Dr. and patient. I can see them having something to do with travel arrangements for the personal DR. but the rest of it is just confusing.
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No, Thunder, AEG was going to be paying him. Remember he even called them back and told them not to make the payments directly to him but he gave him a company name instead (3 initials I think.)

Now MJ may have been the one that was going to pay him when they were off through the holidays but the contract was with AEG and MJ had to consent to the amount and sign off on it as a third party.

IMO
 
oceanblueeyes said:
No, Thunder, AEG was going to be paying him. Remember he even called them back and told them not to make the payments directly to him but he gave him a company name instead (3 initials I think.)

Now MJ may have been the one that was going to pay him when they were off through the holidays but the contract was with AEG and MJ had to consent to the amount and sign off on it as a third party.

IMO
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Thank you. That must of been what I was recalling, the off time through the holidays. The whole thing is still confusing as to why they did it that way.
 
Thundar said:
I am not a Dr. But I believe if you are infused with high amounts of drugs some could end up in your stomach in your body's attempt to flush the drugs out of your blood stream. The drugs go through all your organs to clean your blood. Hopefully prosecution will clear this up.
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From what I have heard from the Dr. that said he must have drank propofol to be in the stomach, that was the reason it was there.
When drink something takes a while to get in your blood stream, then it goes through the digestive system. When the medication is administered through an IV it goes directly into the blood stream.
Maybe the procecution will clear up how the propofol got in the stomach.

This is how medication gets in the blood stream:

There are five different ways that a drug can make its way into the bloodstream:

•Pills and capsules - The medicine is absorbed by the stomach lining and the small intestine and enters the bloodstream.
•Inhalants - The medicine enters the bloodstream through the lungs (in the same way oxygen enters the bloodstream when you breathe).
•Shots - The medicine is injected into the lymph around the cells, is collected in lymph ducts and makes its way into the bloodstream as the lymph is recycled.
•Intravenous (IV) - The medicine enters the bloodstream by direct injection into a vein.
•Suppository - The medicine enters the bloodstream through the lining of the large intestine.
•Dermal patch - The medicine migrates through the skin and enters the lymph or the bloodstream.
Pills are probably the most common way to package drugs, and nearly all over-the-counter medicines come this way. In order for a drug to work as a pill, it needs two features:

•The drug's molecule must be small enough to make it through the stomach lining or intestinal lining.
•The drug's molecule must be unaffected by acid in the stomach.
 
EPfan said:
From what I have heard from the Dr. that said he must have drank propofol to be in the stomach, that was the reason it was there.
When drink something takes a while to get in your blood stream, then it goes through the digestive system. When the medication is administered through an IV it goes directly into the blood stream.
Maybe the procecution will clear up how the propofol got in the stomach.

This is how medication gets in the blood stream:

There are five different ways that a drug can make its way into the bloodstream:

•Pills and capsules - The medicine is absorbed by the stomach lining and the small intestine and enters the bloodstream.
•Inhalants - The medicine enters the bloodstream through the lungs (in the same way oxygen enters the bloodstream when you breathe).
•Shots - The medicine is injected into the lymph around the cells, is collected in lymph ducts and makes its way into the bloodstream as the lymph is recycled.
•Intravenous (IV) - The medicine enters the bloodstream by direct injection into a vein.
•Suppository - The medicine enters the bloodstream through the lining of the large intestine.
•Dermal patch - The medicine migrates through the skin and enters the lymph or the bloodstream.
Pills are probably the most common way to package drugs, and nearly all over-the-counter medicines come this way. In order for a drug to work as a pill, it needs two features:

•The drug's molecule must be small enough to make it through the stomach lining or intestinal lining.
•The drug's molecule must be unaffected by acid in the stomach.
Click to expand...

Propofol is administered intravenously.

IMO
 
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