NY-Long Island-4 bodies on Beach-Possible Serial Killer-Dec 2010 #2

as far as the gunny sacks; burlap is concerned, when i was younger i had friends who had a chinese take out food business, and i do remember that they did use burlap (among other things) to transport some of their foods.
the would get the food from chinatown, then bring it back upstate here a bit to their house prior to bringing it to their restaurant.

that burlap is porous and does desintegrate, it's an interesting choice for the killer to use it.

in a way, if the killer was messy, he could risk the bags leaking into his vehicle. why not use plastic, then if one was to dump a body, dump them naked, then later burn the plastic?

burlap seems to have a history, it's also known as hessian and was first imported from india in the early 19th century

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hessian_%28cloth%29"]Hessian (cloth) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Rugaction.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Rugaction.jpg/200px-Rugaction.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/6/6e/Rugaction.jpg/200px-Rugaction.jpg[/ame]

this is where it gets really interesting:

"Due to its coarse texture, it is not commonly used in modern apparel. However, this roughness gave it a use in a religious context for mortification of the flesh, where individuals may wear an abrasive shirt called a cilice or "hairshirt" and in the wearing of "sackcloth" on Ash Wednesday."

ash wednesday being catholic religion (the beginning of lent). nowadays catholics who practice just get the ashes on the forehead, no burlap sackclothes.

here is a link that mentions repentence and the usage of sackcloth (burlap) in the catholic religion throughout the years:

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=262
(the above link is very interesting, if it's possible our killer is a catholic and very religious)

"In the Middle Ages (at least by the time of the eighth century), those who were about to die were laid on the ground on top of sackcloth sprinkled with ashes..."

"About the year 1000, an Anglo-Saxon priest named Aelfric preached: "We read in the books, both in the Old Law and in the New, that the men who repented of their sins bestrewed themselves with ashes and clothed their bodies with sackcloth..."

now to define cilice,

"A cilice (pronounced /&#712;s&#618;l&#616;s/) was originally a garment or undergarment made of coarse cloth or animal hair (a hairshirt) used in some religious traditions to induce some degree of discomfort or pain as a sign of repentance and atonement"

so burlap seems to have quite the history.

what my question is, why is the killer killing these girls? is it that he thinks they are sinners? does he have a deep seated hatred for women in general? is this due to his upbringing or possibly an exgf? is the killer religious?

is he a mission oriented type serial killer? this is the type who believes that he/she is ridding the world of a specific type of person they consider "undesirable".


when police had originally found the first girl, they did a search and found the others. i remember it being mentioned that they were each found say 500 yards apart from one another.

so i would guess it's impossible the killer used one bag for one or more of the girls, as they were each found 500 yards apart from eachother.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/bodies-long-island-beach-serial-killer-loose/story?id=12399090&page=2

the article also mentions that the killer didn't bury them.

that this killer has gone back to this area again and again to dump bodies shows that he knows the area, he knew it would take awhile for them to be found. he very knowledgable and comfortable about coming back to dump them.
since they were each found about 500 yards apart, almost makes me think he was spacing them apart by mile markers on purpose.

now imo, i don't think these are related to the 4 girls killed in atlantic city, however i don't know.

the 4 in ac were found within 320 feet of one another facedown in inches of water, all had clothes on Except they were all barefoot. all were blondes.

http://crime.about.com/b/2006/11/27/serial-killer-strikes-in-atlantic-city.htm

sorry about the long post here. i don't mean to take the angle that the killer might be a type of extremely religious killer, however the mentioning of sackcloth (burlap) got me thinking... it is possible that maybe the killer is the mission oriented type.

righteous, i have to agree about the phone call. i was doing some thinking and do to the time period, it's possible it was a former pimp maybe of melissa's that thought she had run off on him (thus he lost money) and was angry and harrassing her family. so it's possible it might be irrelevant. it was also made before her body was found.

the original harassing calls were traced to port authority and penn station before the signal went dead. these are prime pimp areas where they will go to hunt for future girls to make work for them. so i'm thinking the harassing was by a pissed off former pimp thinking at the time possibly she ran back home to family.

what was interesting was that a call made to melissa b's phone on the last day she was seen alive, was traced to massapequa (about 20 miles from where her body was found)

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20029621-504083.html

The Calls are definitely interesting but it's hard to say. Another thing about LI and NYC if you live in Manhattan chances are you do not own a Car. One of the other boroughs maybe. It's just to much of a hassle in the City with Parking and all the things that the Convenience of owning a Car brings. unless your very comfortable financially. It's like paying another rent. How all this plays into the picture I don't know. To bad there isn't more fact based information. I think when LE has no leads they release more info, which may mean they have some good information. I wonder if there is any connection with the NJ murders. A Boat would explain a few things!

RIGHTEOUS1 said:

The Calls are definitely interesting but it's hard to say. Another thing about LI and NYC if you live in Manhattan chances are you do not own a Car. One of the other boroughs maybe. It's just to much of a hassle in the City with Parking and all the things that the Convenience of owning a Car brings. unless your very comfortable financially. It's like paying another rent. How all this plays into the picture I don't know. To bad there isn't more fact based information. I think when LE has no leads they release more info, which may mean they have some good information. I wonder if there is any connection with the NJ murders. A Boat would explain a few things!

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Bolded by me because that's an excellent and somewhat comforting thought, Righteous. You're right, if they needed more help from the public, they probably wouldn't be so damn close-mouthed... especially in a case like this where a plea to the public would probably help a lot. I have been hearing speculation from the beginning that LE still has their sights on JB but I have no idea if that's founded on anything legit. It's certainly logical, if nothing else... the ease with which interest in JB seemed to be dropped from public radar has concerned and confused me from the beginning.

Great thoughts everyone! I have been making notes as we go along of potential suspects.

The chinese restaurant profession/burlap use intrigues me since the Asian guy was looking for Shannon on the night she disappeared.

The former pimp idea also got me thinking. Perhaps it wasn't a former pimp at all but a pimp who was attempting to recruit these independent working girls. (with the exception of Melissa) The independent ladies could be infringing on his imaginary territory.

Why would Melissa be expendable and the 2nd girl missing? could she have possibly witnessed the first murder?

Just thinking and typing.......

wm

Is there Public information on this Case? I believe a reward is offered, LE must have some way of letting People know some things. I suppose Press just calls and gets what they want directly from the PR office if it's Suffolk or N. Y.
What does anyone else who wants the "facts" do?

http://www.longislandpress.com/2011/03/24/long-islands-other-serial-killer/

"Over the past decade, nearly a dozen women&#8212;many mutilated and dismembered, and many still without names&#8212;have been found dumped off Long Island roadways. And whether any of these murders are related, or the work of a single killer, is a question police cannot yet answer."

Link to/excerpt from yet another great article from the Long Island Press about unsolved murders of women on LI, mainly in Manorville, they talk a bit about the Gilgo case as well. Definitely worth reading, guys, as it may all be connected. Scary stuff...

Chem, Thanks for all the info on the burlap.
The one thought I had was, assuming the cause of death was asphyxiation, strangulation, there was no mess (blood). So the burlap would work. Plus, the color would camoflauge well atter dumping them, and maybe the killer knew it would dissolve. I wonder how much thought went into using the burlap. To me it seems like this person wanted these bodies to be found, eventually. I wonder if we stopped him in his tracks, and there would've been more in a row, in or another spot, which can possibly be already.

internetgirl101 said:

Chem, Thanks for all the info on the burlap.
The one thought I had was, assuming the cause of death was asphyxiation, strangulation, there was no mess (blood). So the burlap would work. Plus, the color would camoflauge well atter dumping them, and maybe the killer knew it would dissolve. I wonder how much thought went into using the burlap. To me it seems like this person wanted these bodies to be found, eventually. I wonder if we stopped him in his tracks, and there would've been more in a row, in or another spot, which can possibly be already.

Click to expand...

your welcome internetgirl, in regards to the porous burlap, it wasn't necessarily blood i was thinking of; moreso the more unpleasantries of death.
when someone dies, their bodies excrete urine and feces as well. that would possibly make a mess. we have no idea what type of rituals the killer has with the girls, maybe he washes them first...

imo, i think there's got to be another dump site, as sg is still missing. yet it's possible she's not his victim and is the victim of a random, or possibly another serial killer.

svpernin, that article is very interesting, as there's so many jane/john does that are victims of homicide. yet if le can't identify them, they can't solve the murder in the manorville cases.

in general, i'm all for the help find the missing act. it's sad when people can't be identified due to inaccurate data entered into ncis and le databases.
what's most surprising is that not all le in this country has the luxury of having the internet.

RIGHTEOUS1 said:

The Calls are definitely interesting but it's hard to say. Another thing about LI and NYC if you live in Manhattan chances are you do not own a Car. One of the other boroughs maybe. It's just to much of a hassle in the City with Parking and all the things that the Convenience of owning a Car brings. unless your very comfortable financially. It's like paying another rent. How all this plays into the picture I don't know. To bad there isn't more fact based information. I think when LE has no leads they release more info, which may mean they have some good information. I wonder if there is any connection with the NJ murders. A Boat would explain a few things!

Click to expand...

very true about people owning cars in manhattan.
my guess is the killer isn't from manhattan, yet he may go to the city for work or leisure.
if in the instance the killer is from nyc, i'd think he'd take public transportation out to the island (being he had relatives/a place with a car already there).

i agree with you about le releasing more when they have no leads, it's likely they've got someone(s) in their sights already. the hard part being building a very solid case that some expensive defense attorney can't break apart and get the killer off.

do you think that the gilgo murders and atlantic city murders are related?
also i'm curious as to how the boat angle would work?

did you mean a person who owns a boat could sail from l.i. to a.c.,nj?

if i had a boat and needed to rid of a body, i would make sure to go far out to sea to dump it weighted down.

the thing about the atlantic city and even this gilgo beach killer is that the bodies are meant to be found, imo.
especially the a.c. ones, they were laid out each very ritualistically.
each was dressed, face down in water, without shoes on, all blondes, all facing east.

this guy in gilgo has just dumped his victims off the side of the road. the victims are also spaced apart, similiar to the a.c. ones; however aside from the spacing and the girls being prostitutes i don't see any similiarities.

if the killer were one and the same for both places, why wouldn't he continue to keep up his ritual way of "disposing" of his victims? if it was to be the same guy, he's de-escalated in terms of disposing his victims. something would have happened where he can't or doesn't take the time to "pose" his victims anymore.

this is possible, yet for some reason (and i could be wrong) i believe there are 2 different killers.
now if le had considered a connection and looked into it, then obviously they know a lot more than we all do or that is released to the public and it's possible it could be the same guy.

I was just throwing the Boat out there. I don't think AC and LI are related for sure. I think it is interesting that both dump sites are very close to the Water. In LI that is like a Barrier on one side is the Atlantic Ocean on the other is the a Bay, I think it's LI Sound, the name of the Bay. On the bay are Houses that have there own Docks. The strip is also a highway, I remember looking at some Maps of the Atlantic City site and it seemed the area might be the same. On the other Hand if you have a Boat You have the Ocean to dispose of "stuff". I was thinking more of Transportation for the Boat. But it is unlikely.

Great thoughts guys, keep them coming. I just wanted to correct one thing, the area where the bodies were dumped (Ocean Parkway) comprises a side that borders the Atlantic and a side that borders the Great South Bay, not the LI Sound, the sound is on the north shore of LI. Here's a good description of the area:
http://www.longislandexchange.com/ocean-parkway.html

Also, Chem, I agree that the killer wanted these bodies to eventually be found. He may have better hidden other bodies elsewhere (i.e. with the help of a boat) because other victims could have been more easily connected to him, but with these four women, he felt like he had covered his tracks enough that he could have them be discovered without being connected to him (this is just hubris on his part though, he will be connected to them). I think he wants to send a message that he regards these women (because of their lifestyles/occupations or maybe even just because they are women, period) as trash. These are just my opinions.

I wasn't 100 percent sure that it was LI Sound, Great South Bay I didn't know that Thanks. Besides the name everything else is the same yes? There are homes on the Bay with Docks? I haven't been out that way in Years. Then it was either going to Jones Beach or Robert Moses. Anyway it's all Conjecture with the Boat, we need some new facts on this Case!

..AND THE SEARCH RESUMES!..finally.

http://online.wsj.com/article/APae3ebf60e06e4aeba70ad8fe6b8b3060.html

internetgirl101 said:

..AND THE SEARCH RESUMES!..finally.

http://online.wsj.com/article/APae3ebf60e06e4aeba70ad8fe6b8b3060.html

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Knew it! I was in the area today and saw an NBC news van and had a feeling something was up. It's about damn time.

So I guess nothing turned up during today's search..

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/search-resumes-at-gilgo-for-missing-woman-1.2789018

"Tuesday's search -- the largest in periodic police searches on the barrier island in recent months -- turned up small animal bones and debris, but nothing believed to be relevant to Gilbert or the four women."

Hopefully they continue throughout the week.

Svpernin, in the link above, there is a photo that shows a woman and a dog. Is that snow on the ground? Is the ground still icy in that area?

or is that sand?

internetgirl101 said:

So I guess nothing turned up during today's search..

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/search-resumes-at-gilgo-for-missing-woman-1.2789018

"Tuesday's search -- the largest in periodic police searches on the barrier island in recent months -- turned up small animal bones and debris, but nothing believed to be relevant to Gilbert or the four women."

Hopefully they continue throughout the week.

Svpernin, in the link above, there is a photo that shows a woman and a dog. Is that snow on the ground? Is the ground still icy in that area?

Click to expand...

nope, internetgirl, everything is melted around here, it's gotta be sand. I hope they keep searching.

also what does that article say? I can only see the first paragraph of newsday articles.

5th body believed found on Oak Beach...

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/long_island&id=7999337