Autopsy Results

Actually, I do believe he did just simply remove the panel and stuff her inside. He was panicked, but his card shows he was looking for a place. Being he had been there awhile, it is my opinion he has either had to get into that space or he had seen others working inside of it before. I do not think he hoisted her up and dropped her inside. Makes no sense to me if there was an opening which was easily accessed. While the space measure may be 2 feet in width...if it was housing cables and pipes coming from another floor then it means the measurement went from the floor to the ceiling in height. She would easily fit inside. I think it was the decomp which made it so difficult to get her out without disturbing evidence.

It doesn't surprise me at all they didn't release the autopsy report. There may be things which they could charge later, imo. They are probably doing toxicology tests which take 4-6 weeks and means they do not have all of the results yet.

He could have stepped on her, but since his hands didn't appear to be scratched up (they mentioned his arms and chest)...I would say it indicated he used a weapon to strangle her. This could be another reason they did not want to release the autopsy results. If he used her necklace or another object...she would naturally claw at her own neck and possibly lash out to get his arms and chest. If he was using his hands to strangle her...his hands would be gashed by her fingernails in an effort to free herself to breathe. If he was stepping on her...he wouldn't have those scratches, imo.

EXCELLENT PRESENTATION- 48 minutes long but worth it!!!

I have it running in a different window while I read the threads.

Traumatic asphyxiation

http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=784

(NOTE: Darn- I started having difficulty with the video 15 minutes into it so I hope it works better for you.)

agent_scully said:

Could he have stepped on her neck - he 190 lbs/she 90 lbs.

He had bloody shoes. Traumatic Asphyxia symptoms include:

Purple-blue face discoloration
Purple-blue neck discoloration
Skin petechiae in upper part of body (broken blood vessels)
Facial swelling
Subconjunctival hemorrhage

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/what-traumatic-asphyxiation-annie-le-murder-cause-death

"Traumatic asphyxiation is distinguished by the brute force needed to severely compress the thorax, it is a violent sounding cause of death that describes a truly violent act. Traumatic asphyxia is generally defined as a form of asphyxia caused by chest or upper abdomen compression and normally does not include direct pressure on the throat.

The thoracic cavity contains the heart and lungs and traumatic asphyxiation involves crushing pressure being directly placed on these organs. For the average person it would take between 2-3 minutes to die from crush asphyxiation, if a person were struggling or fighting back death would most likely come even faster than that."

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This article says it was due to neck compression.

NEW HAVEN, Connecticut - Yale graduate student Annie Le died from traumatic asphyxiation due to neck compression, the office of the chief state's medical examiner said Wednesday.

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http://www.fox40.com/news/headlines/ktxl-news-anniele-deathcause0916,0,1384620.story

Edited to add another link:
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/brea...ng-Yale-Student-Leads-to-Waste-Facility-.html

Slain Yale graduate student Annie Le, whose body was found crammed into a duct in the basement of a university lab, died of "traumatic asphyxia due to neck compression," the coroner said Wednesday.

"Traumatic asphyxia due to neck compression" is a form of strangulation, according to a doctor at St. Francis Hospital, but it is not clear whether she was strangled by the killer’s hands or by an object.

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I will say I am a bit confused after listening to the whole video and will have to research traumatic asphyxia some more.

rdm64 said:

NO NO NO. If you look back on my posts several days BEFORE the ME report announcement of COD I was saying it was strangulation -- specifically becaus eI know for a fact that her body was not cut up and no blood was near her body discovery site. OK?
Look here
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CT- Annie Le, missing from Yale, thread #5 FOUND DECEASED

It isnt a tiny duct, it is a pipe and conduit run access and you could fit a 300 lb person in those intact.

This is a lab. they have gas lines, water lines, internet cable lines, waste lines, other cable lines etc and there would be big areas behind wasll with access panels.

He would have needed about two minutes total to put the body of a 90 lb 4'11" in a laundry cart, remove a panel and stuff her in.

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bold by me..............where you there??? Are you media? LE? student? help us

Hey I am just going by what was said on a mainstream news show... it was said her body was dismantled or cut up... and the area where her body was found is said to be 2 feet square. That was said clearly last night on NG... Is there a link to a written LE statememnt describing how/where she was found in specific detail?

Just strangling someone isnt particularly bloody. Nor are the kind of wounds you get just fighting with someone. The amount of blood supposedly found on the clothes in the ceiling is interesting.

I would assume she died Tuesday (the last day she was seen alive). I can't see her roaming around the building for 5 days to be killed Sunday and found immediately. So I would imagine she was dead 5 days before she was found.

Disclosure laws vary from state to state. FLorida's Sunshine Laws make a lot public... like all the Casey/Caylee Anthony stuff...

I notice in the news today www.foxnews.com it says that he may have had an accomplice...

Neck compression doesn't necessarily mean he did it with his hands.

Harmony2 said:

This article says it was due to neck compression.


http://www.fox40.com/news/headlines/ktxl-news-anniele-deathcause0916,0,1384620.story

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scandi said:

Hi Rdm, There are several things that tell me he didn't just remove a panel and stuff her in, based on what we have read*:

* LE searched all the chases originally. The panels are said to be easily opened even with a butter knife. That means her body was not visible to the searchers and the dogs were skewed by the odors in the lab.

* Her body was difficult to extricate from the chase and by Sunday evening was still trapped there. They had to go up several feet and cut a hole in the chase to get her out.

* Her body was moved to a different place or room from where she was killed.

I think those three facts {if they are the case} go to show she was probably pushed through an opening in the chase from above, pushed thru those plywood panels and dropped onto the conduit and pipes below. And I think it could have been accessed through a dropped ceiling where it meets a wall.

Really I would love to have my theory disproved as it is so haunting to me. IMO

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Sorry this is not accurate. you are forgetting that the crime investigators in removing the body were attempting to preserve evidence and dealing with a decomposing (5 day) body which would be bloated.

It would not be from above but simply removing a access panel (the woudl be regular ones of about 2'x3" or larger) and wrestling the body in. The person shoving the body in woudl be doing so before rigor mortis and before bloat, the people removing the body would be dealing with all kinds of after affects of decomposition plus an interest in preserving evidence.

As far as here body being moved, if she was killed in the perps work area he may not have wished to place r her there but in a more out of he way place, and his work area may have had no access panels to the chases.

I think all the access panels were searched before the discovery.

passionflower said:

bold by me..............where you there??? Are you media? LE? student? help us

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I know one of the score or more reporters who knew the condition of the body from the score of people who dealt with pulling it out and transporting it.

That is why I said from the beginning that the reports the body was cut up were totally false and by all appearance it was strangulation.

Teh simplest sceario is often the case and it appears to be the case here. Perp is mad about something work related or personal. He argues with victim, perhaps at some point strikes or grabs her, and she tells him he is going to be fired. I really doubt he planed to kill her since it is an idiotic crime scene. But he goes past the point of no return and face to face strangles her or choke holds her. He set off an alarm, gets a laundry cart, scouts a place to stuff her body in, does so and leaves.

By the way some of the side talk on traumatic asphyxia involving cars or furniture is off the mark. strangulation results in traumatic asphyxia as does a choke hold. you can asphyxiate in a plastic bag or from carbon monoxide, the "trauma" does not have to involve anything huge, it refers to creating a pathology in the body, say the crushing or closing of a windpipe with ones hands or forearm. Strangulation results in a death by traumatic asphyxia.

Carla Lashelle said:

Just strangling someone isnt particularly bloody. Nor are the kind of wounds you get just fighting with someone. The amount of blood supposedly found on the clothes in the ceiling is interesting. ...

I notice in the news today www.foxnews.com it says that he may have had an accomplice...

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Not much blood was found on the clothing. it was his.

the access panel OPENING was 2x3 to 2x2, the open area behind was bigger that you could fit a 150lb person in.

The accomplice leak is more about people who may have helped him after he left. it is common to try and pressure material witnesses who may have had some knowledge after the crime that they should have reported this way. they may simply wish to pressure someone who may have lent him a jacket to leave with or someone may have given a false alibi in the initial investigation interviews, we know several relatives leaved nearby as well as his fiance.

agent_scully said:

Neck compression doesn't necessarily mean he did it with his hands.

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Not except that use of the hands or chokehold is more than sufficient and it is the vast majority of male on female traumatic asphyxia.

"traumatic asphyxia" in murder is almost always strangulation face to face by hand, second would be strangulation by a choke hold. it doesn't rule out an object but a reasonably powerful young man (and his forearms look like he works out a bit) strangling a 90lb 4'11" woman would be easy.

the act of strangulation also can lead to unconsciousness in less then ten seconds because you are not just constricting the airflow but the blood flow to the brain. In some military training you are shown how to do this in a way that will render an opponent unconscious a few seconds.
-ability to shout or cry out: immediately ended.
-consciousness: ended in >10 seconds
- permanent damage to the windpipe that will result in death within minutes without intervention such as tracheotomy: immediate.

agent_scully said:

Neck compression doesn't necessarily mean he did it with his hands.

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Oh I know but with the injuries to his face, chest and arms I initially envisioned manual strangulation with them facing each other. I am still trying to construct a sequence of events as information is revealed and as I discover more about traumatic asphyxia. It is very possible an object in the room (like a broom handle for example) was used to asphyxiate her. The video I posted in the first page of this thread enumerated various methods. I am not fixated on the manual strangulation even though media accounts have made it appear like that is what happened.

Harmony2 said:

Oh I know but with the injuries to his face, chest and arms I initially envisioned manual strangulation with them facing each other. I am still trying to construct a sequence of events as information is revealed and as I discover more about traumatic asphyxia. It is very possible an object in the room (like a broom handle for example) was used to asphyxiate her. The video I posted in the first page of this thread enumerated various methods. I am not fixated on the manual strangulation even though media accounts have made it appear like that is what happened.

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I agree Harmony2, at this point all of the theories on how she suffered traumatic asphyxia are applicable. We can't really rule any valid theory out.

rdm64 said:

Not except that use of the hands or chokehold is more than sufficient and it is the vast majority of male on female traumatic asphyxia.

"traumatic asphyxia" in murder is almost always strangulation face to face by hand, second would be strangulation by a choke hold. it doesn't rule out an object but a reasonably powerful young man (and his forearms look like he works out a bit) strangling a 90lb 4'11" woman would be easy.

the act of strangulation also can lead to unconsciousness in less then ten seconds because you are not just constricting the airflow but the blood flow to the brain. In some military training you are shown how to do this in a way that will render an opponent unconscious a few seconds.
-ability to shout or cry out: immediately ended.
-consciousness: ended in >10 seconds
- permanent damage to the windpipe that will result in death within minutes without intervention such as tracheotomy: immediate.

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This is something that really may have happened. Given the description of the cause of death being traumatic asphyxia. In my mind, that tells me that the delicate organs in her neck were probably crushed. JMHO.

Now how those organs got crushed is up to speculation at this point in time.

He could have very well used an object of some type.
Or he could have very well used his hands.

The end result would be a crushing injury that resulted in permanent injury to an organ in her neck and even if he had let up on the object he was using or loosened his grasp on her neck...the result would have been death given the ME's use of words.

Harmony2 said:

Oh I know but with the injuries to his face, chest and arms I initially envisioned manual strangulation with them facing each other.

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Everyone has seen the arrest, courtroom and booking photos/video... yet I don't see any facial injuries on RC. Was that a media fabrication?

Also his lower arms showed no scratchmarks, I thought it was interesting that he chose to wear a short sleeve shirt to court.

Trying not to be indelicate here, but I'm not sure there is a nice way to phrase it... Given the rumors that went around regarding dismemberment, and the report that the perp did not cut up the body - and knowing how a body changes as it decays, is there a possibility that the police might have been forced to dismember her in order to get her out of the chase?

Sloof said:

Everyone has seen the arrest, courtroom and booking photos/video... yet I don't see any facial injuries on RC. Was that a media fabrication?

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Sloof I also had an eagle eye on his body looking for those marks. I simply do not know if it was a media fabrication. I recall reading that when LE asked him to photograph his body, he asked for a lawyer but also do not know if that may have been a fabrication.

From what I understand, they will cut up the area surrounding the body before they will touch the body. Preserving evidence is paramount-even over property remaining intact, debirlfan.

I've also not seen any obvious scratches in all of the recent photos of RC. If they were bad enough to draw blood, would they already be healed up?

Or are we thinking the blood was from AL's head? (as head wounds tend to bleed a bit more profusely)

I don't have the photo, but there was a slideshow on our local news which showed him getting into a vehicle when he was arrested. If you look above the crook of his elbow on the inside of his left arm there appears to be a mark of some sort which could be a gouge with a scratch.

I can't find the slideshow where they had the photo now. Sorry.

I also saw what looked to be a very large bruise on his inner left arm, right above the elbow, when he appeared in court yesterday.

Are you sure you didn't see the blurry image of a tattoo? He has one on each arm left and right. It looks like they circle his arms.