Possibly related cases (GB4, Manorville, Bittrolff victims, & others)

waltzingmatilda said:

~snipped from above post #6, additional info added in red~

GB4-wrapped in burlap, possible asphixiation, all disappeared in summer

Maureen Brainard Barnes......last seen July 09, 2007 Monday, waning quarter moon, July 4 was the prior Wednesday

Melissa Barthelemy.............last seen July 12, 2009Sunday, waning gibbous moon, July 4th was one week and one day prior on a Saturday.

Megan Waterman................last seen June 6, 2010 (6-6 is actually spring)Sunday, waning crescent moon, Memorial Day was 6 days prior on Monday 5-31

Amber Costello...................last seen Sept 2, 2010 Thursday, waning quarter moon, Labor day was 4 days later on Mon. Sept 6

Ok, here's what I theorize about the killer of the GB4.....

He is married with children and lives on LI. The wife and kid(s) travel on vacation maybe for an extended visit to relatives while school is on hiatus and he stays behind. "When the cat's away the mice will play." (as the saying goes) I doubt the wife has any idea of his secret life. It is not uncommon for those in a loveless marriage to live separate lives but stay together 'for the children's sake'?

The moon phases intrigue me. Could he plan so meticously that he captures his victim on a waning moon and holds them for a few days to do his dastardly deeds and then disposes of them on the night of the new moon when it is a dark night? My guess is yes, IMHO this is a highly organized killer. However, I betcha this killer likes to party with booze and coke and gamble as he most likely has a grandiose opinion of his own self.

Now, IF, big if, he is also responsible for the AC4 and DB4, my guess is because he must travel away from the family during the school year to keep his crimes a secret. The AC murders occured in Oct/Nov 2006 and the DB murders occured in Dec/Jan/Feb of 2005, 2006 & 2007 He has a bit more freedom on the road than he does on LI and there is no reason to wrap his victims in these other locations as he is just passing through or on a gambling vacation to casinos or dog tracks. Also, he doesn't have access to burlap on the road. It would also defeat the purpose to stay anonymous if he used the same disposal/killing method for each location as he is organized and in control.

Do any of our LI locals know when the school year ends in NY? Does it end before the Memorial day holiday? If the school year ends after June 6, (Megan's last seen date) then this theory may not hold water but if I would especially be interested in seeing a school calender for NY in 2010.

Here's my source for the moon phases....

.http://www.wunderground.com/history...eq_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA&MR=1

Hope this all makes sense as I am just thinking and typing.

wm

Click to expand...

WM, dude...

No. Disagree. June, July, early Sept.?

Think "heat", not kids.

If Joel Rifkin is right, which we shouldn't discount, the timing suggests a seasonal worker or someone exposed to the elements. When it gets hot, they get horny. I'm thinking like some dumb a$$ with a bad air conditioner, passing "*advertiser censored*" all day long while driving around all day. Hmm, who could I be thinking about???

waltzingmatilda said:

~snipped from above post #6, additional info added in red~

GB4-wrapped in burlap, possible asphixiation, all disappeared in summer

Maureen Brainard Barnes......last seen July 09, 2007 Monday, waning quarter moon, July 4 was the prior Wednesday

Melissa Barthelemy.............last seen July 12, 2009Sunday, waning gibbous moon, July 4th was one week and one day prior on a Saturday.

Megan Waterman................last seen June 6, 2010 (6-6 is actually spring)Sunday, waning crescent moon, Memorial Day was 6 days prior on Monday 5-31

Amber Costello...................last seen Sept 2, 2010 Thursday, waning quarter moon, Labor day was 4 days later on Mon. Sept 6

Ok, here's what I theorize about the killer of the GB4.....

He is married with children and lives on LI. The wife and kid(s) travel on vacation maybe for an extended visit to relatives while school is on hiatus and he stays behind. "When the cat's away the mice will play." (as the saying goes) I doubt the wife has any idea of his secret life. It is not uncommon for those in a loveless marriage to live separate lives but stay together 'for the children's sake'?

The moon phases intrigue me. Could he plan so meticously that he captures his victim on a waning moon and holds them for a few days to do his dastardly deeds and then disposes of them on the night of the new moon when it is a dark night? My guess is yes, IMHO this is a highly organized killer. However, I betcha this killer likes to party with booze and coke and gamble as he most likely has a grandiose opinion of his own self.

Now, IF, big if, he is also responsible for the AC4 and DB4, my guess is because he must travel away from the family during the school year to keep his crimes a secret. The AC murders occured in Oct/Nov 2006 and the DB murders occured in Dec/Jan/Feb of 2005, 2006 & 2007 He has a bit more freedom on the road than he does on LI and there is no reason to wrap his victims in these other locations as he is just passing through or on a gambling vacation to casinos or dog tracks. Also, he doesn't have access to burlap on the road. It would also defeat the purpose to stay anonymous if he used the same disposal/killing method for each location as he is organized and in control.

Do any of our LI locals know when the school year ends in NY? Does it end before the Memorial day holiday? If the school year ends after June 6, (Megan's last seen date) then this theory may not hold water but if I would especially be interested in seeing a school calender for NY in 2010.

Here's my source for the moon phases....

.http://www.wunderground.com/history...eq_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA&MR=1

Hope this all makes sense as I am just thinking and typing.

wm

Click to expand...

School ends at the end of June. In 2010 it would have been June 25th.

Just wanted to let you guys know that there's a new show on ID called Dark Minds with author M. Willam Phelps and profiler John Kelly and next week they are exploring possible connections between the AC murders and the LISK.

http://investigation.discovery.com/tv/dark-minds/episodes/episode-guide-02.html

inspctrgadget said:

WM, dude...

No. Disagree. June, July, early Sept.?

Think "heat", not kids.

If Joel Rifkin is right, which we shouldn't discount, the timing suggests a seasonal worker or someone exposed to the elements. When it gets hot, they get horny. I'm thinking like some dumb a$$ with a bad air conditioner, passing "*advertiser censored*" all day long while driving around all day. Hmm, who could I be thinking about???

Click to expand...

Well, the title of this thread begins with Possible connections.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree about one's children influencing their decisions. (I base this on personal experience from my first marriage to a philanderer who was a master at scheduling in order to keep me in the dark. He wasn't the nice minister's son and family man that then young, naive wm thought he was.)

I'm not so sure about the heat thing but perhaps it could be a stressor for a SK. Could the reason for the girls missing in the summer months be because there is more activity on LI and more prey from which to choose during the summer? I don't live there so IDK.

My mind is certainly not closed to a trucker being the SK. However, I try and keep an open mind and explore all possibilties/theories/patterns, etc.

MOO

wm

waltzingmatilda said:

Well, the title of this thread begins with Possible connections.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree about one's children influencing their decisions. (I base this on personal experience from my first marriage to a philanderer who was a master at scheduling in order to keep me in the dark. He wasn't the nice minister's son and family man that then young, naive wm thought he was.)

I'm not so sure about the heat thing but perhaps it could be a stressor for a SK. Could the reason for the girls missing in the summer months be because there is more activity on LI and more prey from which to choose during the summer? I don't live there so IDK.

My mind is certainly not closed to a trucker being the SK. However, I try and keep an open mind and explore all possibilties/theories/patterns, etc.

MOO

wm

Click to expand...

Hmm, I guess I was being a bit close minded. Thanks for calling it. Ya know, I spent some time looking at the different SKs (Daytona, Hawaii, NJ, CA, etc.) to see if any seem related to any of the POIs, and I found out it's tempting to think that they are, but its a stretch.

After thinking about it again, I think your approach to the dates/seasons makes sense, as far as an east coast mobile killer (I had only read the snipped version that referenced moons - sorry!).

But check this out:
From: http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

"Myth: All serial murderers travel and operate interstate.

Most serial killers have very defined geographic areas of operation. They conduct their killings within comfort zones that are often defined by an anchor point (e.g. place of residence, employment, or residence of a relative). Serial murderers will, at times, spiral their activities outside of their comfort zone, when their confidence has grown through experience or to avoid detection. Very few serial murderers travel interstate to kill.

The few serial killers who do travel interstate to kill fall into a few categories:

• Itinerant individuals who move from place to place.
• Homeless individuals who are transients.
• Individuals whose employment lends itself to interstate or transnational travel, such as truck drivers or those in military service.

The difference between these types of offenders and other serial murderers is the nature of their traveling lifestyle, which provides them with many zones of comfort in which to operate.

Thanks for the link, it is very informative.

My dad is a teamster, so the time truckers spend on the road and away from the family isn't lost on me.

This is why I feel a trucker could be a potential suspect for the murders of 4 women in different locations on the east coast due to a regular I-95 traffic route from NY to FL and vise versa. His regular stops would be familiar to him.

I need more facts before I can zone in on one potential poi at this time. Thanks for keeping an open mind.


MOO

wm

svpernin said:

Just wanted to let you guys know that there's a new show on ID called Dark Minds with author M. Willam Phelps and profiler John Kelly and next week they are exploring possible connections between the AC murders and the LISK.

http://investigation.discovery.com/tv/dark-minds/episodes/episode-guide-02.html

Click to expand...

John Kelly and M. William Phelps are part of the S.T.A.L.K., Inc. team. They put out this profile of the Long Island perp:

http://www.stalkinc.com/profile6.html

Discovery Channel Press-release
http://press.discovery.com/us/id/pre...xplores--1667/

Here is a short bio of John Kelly, one of the S.T.A.L.K profilers:
http://press.discovery.com/us/id/talent/kelly-john/

Profiler links inmate to two killing
The Boston Globe
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...oVM/story.html

Here is a link to a journalist's website who is a part of the S.T.A.L.K., Inc. team:
http://www.mwilliamphelps.com/

@ waltzingmatilda-

Keep going with your theory. It's a good one, IMHO.

Dwntwnslim said:

John Kelly and M. William Phelps are part of the S.T.A.L.K., Inc. team. They put out this profile of the Long Island perp:

http://www.stalkinc.com/profile6.html

Discovery Channel Press-release
http://press.discovery.com/us/id/pre...xplores--1667/

Here is a short bio of John Kelly, one of the S.T.A.L.K profilers:
http://press.discovery.com/us/id/talent/kelly-john/

Profiler links inmate to two killing
The Boston Globe
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...oVM/story.html

Here is a link to a journalist's website who is a part of the S.T.A.L.K., Inc. team:
http://www.mwilliamphelps.com/

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I just need to find out what channel ID is on. lol I know they don't believe the LISK and AC murders are connected ~ different killers

scandi said:

Thanks for the info. I just need to find out what channel ID is on. lol I know they don't believe the LISK and AC murders are connected ~ different killers

Click to expand...

I hope they put the show online. I don't have TV!

IMHO, we can disagree with the profilers if we want to. Keep in mind, I have only one semester of "Introduction to Psychology" so you might want to take My attempts at profiling with massive amounts of salt.

http://www.practicalhomicide.com/current/11262006.htm

Geberth called the ditch where the bodies were found the killer's "totem place," where he could glean a "feeling of superiority" each time he went there and had the opportunity to "validate or relive his crimes."

Sound familiar?

How far is AC from Oak Beach...in terms of hours? Wonder if the AC girls were killed on weekends.

http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=41917

Several prostitutes in the city have mentioned other street walkers who have gone missing. One woman, who calls herself "Sheri," told AMW producers that two prostitutes, "Heather" and "Peaches," haven't been seen for quite some time.

Peaches?! Any chance this could be our "Peaches" found in Hempstead?

http://www.longislandpress.com/2010/07/01/long-islands-unidentified-murder-victims/

But, how long is "awhile"? The AC murders were in 2006, weren't they? 10 years in more that "awhile", imo. Still...curious coincidence.

Mountain_Kat said:

http://www.practicalhomicide.com/current/11262006.htm

Geberth called the ditch where the bodies were found the killer's "totem place," where he could glean a "feeling of superiority" each time he went there and had the opportunity to "validate or relive his crimes."

Sound familiar?

How far is AC from Oak Beach...in terms of hours? Wonder if the AC girls were killed on weekends.

Click to expand...

the 4 were found on Nov 20, 2006 I believe. I read they were found the day after they were put there. Here is a basic link, nothing great. It would take more digging to find out the particulars about this.

The correct year was 2006. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/19/national/main3520577.shtml

Morning everyone,

There is quite a bit of info on AC murders, some of it true, some false info that was reported in the media. Anyway, I know a lot about the AC killings, and that was what initially drew me to the GB4. It would take forever and a day to post all the links and write my own info on AC, but if there are questions, specific or general about the AC murders, please feel free to ask away. I will be happy to help in any way I can. I have visited the physical locations multiple times of the AC and have constructed my own theories and timelines and charts about the killings. So if I can help in any way, I most certainly will

Theforeigner said:

Atlantic City victims, date when they were last seen in Atlantic City:

Oct 7:
Atlantic City murder victim Molly Dilts disappear


Oct 17:

Atlantic City murder victim Barbara Breidor disappear


Nov 15:
Atlantic City murder victim Tracy Roberts disappear


Nov 19:
Atlantic City murder victim Kim Raffo was alleged seen for the last time by Joe Boccino, owner of Papa Joe's, an Atlantic City diner, at 2:30 AM




Toxicology reports on the four, Nov 20, 2006, Atlantic City murder victims:
Kim Raffo: large amounts of cocaine

Tracy Roberts: large amounts of cocaine

Barbara Breidor: potentially lethal dose of heroin

Molly Dilts: alcohol (no drugs)



Cause of death on the four, Nov 20, 2006, Atlantic City murder victims:

Kim Raffo: strangulation by ligature

Tracy Roberts: died by asphyxia "by unspecified means."

Barbara Breidor: condition of the body made an exact cause of death difficult to determine.

Molly Dilts: condition of the body made an exact cause of death difficult to determine.

Click to expand...

Some random thoughts:

~ All of our GB4 girls died from asphixiation/strangulation.
~One of our GB4 girls was found with some part of a ligature on her body. Kim Raffo was killed by ligature strangulation.
~I believe all of our GB4 were drug users. MB cocaine, MBB cocaine, MW cocaine and alchol (per her family), ALC heroin. All of the AC girls were drig users.
~ All of our GB4 girls were found spaced 500 ft apart from each other. The AC girls were found spaced 900 (?) feet apart from each other.
~ The GB4 were were dumped in a trophy case fashion(totem)...the AC4 were dumped in trophy case fashion (totem).

AC4 (all 2006):
~ Molly Dilts, last seen Oct.7...a saturday.
~ Barbara Breider, last seen Oct 17...a tuesday.
~ Tracy Roberts, last seen Nov.15 (almost a month to the day from BB)...a wednesday.
~ Kim Raffo, last seen Nov.19...a sunday.
So 4 girls murdered by the same person in the space of a 40+ days. That's a spree, and doesn't really match up with what we see in the GB4 girls. :waitasec: Whether or not they could have all been weekend killings is hard to say, due to the fact that we can't know the actual date they were murdered based soley on the times they were last seen.

The GB 4 :
~ Maureen Brainard Barnes, last seen either July 9 or July 10, 2007...a monday or a tuesday
~ Melissa Barthelemy, last seen July 12, 2009...a sunday.
~ Megan Waterman, last seen June 6, 2010...around 1 am on a monday morning.
~Amber Lynn Costello, last seen Sept. 2, 2010...a thursday evening.

The only pattern I can see is that the days of the week and the times are so random it would lead me to believe our guy doesn't work. And yet, we know he offered our GB4 girls huge amounts of money, and they believed him, so this isn't some jobless/homeless guy. He's either retired, independently wealthy, or has a job where he can set his own hours, imo. If that's the case, he could very well have spent 40+ days in Atlantic City if he has no clock to punch. If he didn't spend the entire 40+ days in AC, and he lives on LI, is it reasonable to think he might have left LI, travelled to AC to do his killing and then returned to LI? I dunno. Maybe a 4 hour drive max? Seems doable to me.

I know our GB4 girls, and have a clear sense of who these girls were as people (which is important to me). I don't have any sense at all of who our AC4 were...so patterns between the individuals in both cases aren't clear to me. But what I'd like to do, if I feel up to it this weekend, is to try to gain a better understanding of our AC4 girls and post that here. Start there and see if there are any links or patterns that might apply to the GB4.

Hi WaltzingMatilda! :wave:

Not that anybody missed me or noticed that I haven't been around, but I needed to take a good break from this case. The information became swirled and twisted in my head like spagetti. So, I'm looking forward to watching Dark Minds tomorrow and maybe becoming more of an assistance with this case because at one point I began to feel real confused. I feel fresh and clean now and I'm ready to get busy!

Sistah Sleuth said:

Hi WaltzingMatilda! :wave:

Click to expand...

Sistah Sleuth!!!! Yay!! So glad to see you back. (((wm)))

@ Sistah Sleuth-

I noticed your absence. I missed your way with words and how you are always able to get right to the heart of the matter.

BTW, I still think your personality profile of the perp is the best one we have.

Thanks Dwntwnslim. Yeah, I was also becoming disappointed and upset because of the lack of information. I just don't want this case to go cold and it still seems like it is heading that way. But who knows what Dark Minds could spark? Maybe we will be able to advance some...I hope.