2015.06.28 Timestamp Indicated per Probable Cause Doc

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SeesSeas said:
LCSO ARREST/NOTICE TO APPEAR - Page 2 is PROBABLE CAUSE STATEMENT

Nothing stated about Time Of Death.

This is what is listed on PROBABLE CAUSE STATEMENT:
The undersigned certifies and swears that he/she has just and reasonable grounds to believe that the above named Defendant committed the following violation of law: MURDER DANGEROUS DEPRAVED WO PREMEDITATION
On the 28 day of June at 2319 P.M.

Also note: there is no year listed for the ‘violation of law’…. Just day, month, time.
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IM4TRUTH said:
The time of death is noted on page 2 (at the top) as 2319 PM.
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Is it my eyes?? I don't see the words "time of death" on page 2 at the top.
 
In terms of the 11:19 time, I completely agree that there's some electronic record that's leading to a time that is that specific.

Maybe that's when TS got home and started to disarm the alarm before realizing that she didn't need to? My alarm company records all keystrokes on the pad. If CWW and JR were in the house and someone has confessed that the attack on TS started as soon as she surprised them, that would make sense as the starting time for the crime... and could make Skinner's theory basically work, since we no longer have to account for a 5-6 hour delay. (I think Skinner was making CWW too much the innocent party in his theory, but I can totally understand why he's inclined to think that way.)

I would definitely not read much into the second degree murder charges. That's all about gathering evidence and the need to go to the GJ. I say that because even if Skinner's version of events holds, it would still be first degree murder under Florida's felony murder rule (home invasion is a predicate offense) for whichever of CWW and JR actually did the deed (or, possibly, for both of them depending on how it went down). See: http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2010/782.04

So, basically, whether this was all planned (and, if it was, I can only assume it was at the behest of MS) or was actually an accident during the commission of a home invasion, someone will end up being charged with first degree murder.
 
relay said:
The TOD is very specific and not approximately 11-11:30 or between 10pm and 12am. I wonder why they believe the murder happened at such a specific time. Is there a witness to something? Was Dr. Teresa wearing a watch or was she carrying her cell that stopped at 11:19pm? In any event, I see this as a good sign that the TOD appears to have been narrowed down so precisely.
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Was it caught on Video?
 
Scout said:
It isn't time of death. It's time of the crime of murder.
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Then there must be some kind of evidence that 11:19 is the time the crime commenced. And since there's no other crime here like burglary, it's written as the crime of murder.
 
Scout said:
We don't know which family they were staying with. Mark has family up there, too.
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Sorry, I think I may have been unclear... Whichever family the unverified insider is from (the post reposted in this thread) is split 50-50 on MS' involvement per that post. (I assumed from context that it was a member of TS' family.) That same post said that they have been able to speak to the girls and are convinced they are safe. I would assume that they would attempt to informally corroborate the call given it's mention at the memorial service and their questions re: MS' involvement. (They could seemingly corroborate just by asking the girls about the last time they spoke to their mom; no need for anything in depth.)
 
Scout said:
It isn't time of death. It's time of the crime of murder.
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Yes - - so this thread should not be titled TOD (Time of Death) per Probable Cause Doc.
Many confusing posts because of those posters who believe the TOD is June 28, 2015 at 23:19 PM.
 
How about if TS opened the Garage door to pull her car in at 11:19? Would that be recorded in the security system?
 
SeaEclipse said:
Sorry, I think I may have been unclear... Whichever family the unverified insider is from (the post reposted in this thread) is split 50-50 on MS' involvement per that post. (I assumed from context that it was a member of TS' family.) That same post said that they have been able to speak to the girls and are convinced they are safe. I would assume that they would attempt to informally corroborate the call given it's mention at the memorial service and their questions re: MS' involvement. (They could seemingly corroborate just by asking the girls about the last time they spoke to their mom; no need for anything in depth.)
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Got it.

Skinner said Mark told him the call took place around 11:30. Not possible if murder happened at 11:19.
 
Scout said:
Got it.

Skinner said Mark told him the call took place around 11:30. Not possible if murder happened at 11:19.
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Yeah, but I wouldn't worry too much about that discrepancy given my belief that TS really did call MS. (For the reason stated above.) He has no incentive to report a false time for a call that really occurred... especially since it's so easily verifiable when/if it did. (That is, the call itself is verifiable from phone records, even if who made the call isn't.) Seems more likely that he thought the call was at about 11:30 and it was really at 11:05 or whatever. Also possible that the timing got a bit messed up in the MS-->Skinner--> us game of telephone (i.e., maybe he said between 11 and 11:30 and Skinner said 11:30 to us or whatever; it didn't seem to matter that much when the TOD was assumed to be early morning and we didn't even know exactly where she made the call from).

All of the above is not to say that MS wasn't involved; I'm not sure. I just assume, either way, that call really happened. (Hell, maybe he told her she should call to say bedtime prayers specifically so he could alert CWW and JR that she was on the way.)
 
Paulas88 said:
How about if TS opened the Garage door to pull her car in at 11:19? Would that be recorded in the security system?
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I've never had a security system hooked to a garage door, but I would venture to say many/the majority are. Good call.
 
IQuestion said:
SCOUT I have a thought on the time..(oh this is so sad to state or question but) But, the exact time could be explained by a watch or cell phone being smashed by a hammer....think about having a cell phone in your hands and trying to call 911, or a watch on your wrist as you would naturally and instinctively raise your arm and hand to protect your face ior to fend off blows???
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Related to knowing TOD, in this pic, Dr. S is wearing a watch. I don't know if it was her every day practice however.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dr+...h1HSgcI&biw=640&bih=279#imgrc=l4jqp8em3xNkmM:
 
Before everybody gets too carried away with the time cited on this doc - I am in NO WAY convinced that that exact time was when they believe she died EXACTLY. I personally believe that is the EXACT TIME they have proof that she was last ALIVE. (probably per her cell phone call, imo) That said, I do believe that LE has reason to believe she died not long afterwards. IOW, not long after they have proof that she was alive.

Dancing around it, but I tend to think that doc indicates the last time they have proof she was alive and also believe her TOD was not too long after they have that proof that she was alive. IMO, probably immediately upon arriving at her home. IDK, just my guess. However, there is no way on earth a medical examiner would cite a TOD down to a minute so precise as 11:19p unless they were on site when she passed away. And we know that didn't happen.
 
redfish said:
IF : That is the determined TOD then they would need to know exactly when she was last seen alive...(airport video perhaps) then perhaps video of the van leaving WITHOUT her in the drivers seat. OR an attack witnessed on video at the airport. I would think. I don't see how she could have made it home in that tight of time frame.
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I'm just now coming into the threads on this case, but I've read several articles about this case. The precise TOD is very puzzling. Could there have been a text that was sent at that time to someone (MS or someone else) to confirm that Dr. Sievers was dead? Maybe even a code word? For it to be so precise, there is definitely some type of irrefutable documentation.

JMO
 
Batman's Mommy said:
I'm just now coming into the threads on this case, but I've read several articles about this case. The precise TOD is very puzzling. Could there have been a text that was sent at that time to someone (MS or someone else) to confirm that Dr. Sievers was dead? Maybe even a code word? For it to be so precise, there is definitely some type of irrefutable documentation.

JMO
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The time on the PROBABLE CAUSE STATEMENT is not "The precise TOD". There is no indication on that document of TOD (Time Of Death).
 
SeesSeas said:
The time on the PROBABLE CAUSE STATEMENT is not "The precise TOD". There is no indication on that document of TOD (Time Of Death).
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Right. Let me restate. The precise TIME listed is puzzling, to me. It will be interesting to see what the evidence is in regards to this time.

:moo:
 
TTF14 said:
Then there must be some kind of evidence that 11:19 is the time the crime commenced. And since there's no other crime here like burglary, it's written as the crime of murder.
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Yes I just checked on a case where I knew the victim. I have copies of arrest warrants and case files. She was murdered after an ex boyfriend broke into her apartment just before she got home from work.

On her reports it lists the time of the crime as the time when he was spotted by surveillance cameras breaking into her apartment even though she wasn't actually killed until 2 hours later.

I asked about it at the time and was told that was when the crime began even though the Murder (and what he was charged/convicted of) happened later.
 
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