Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #37

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minni said:
One last thing Doc...in regards to the post mortem injuries and the general decomposition that you would expect after 11 days.

How could they have stated so quickly that
1: it was a homicide?
2: there were no visible signs of foul play?
3: how do they differentiate between injury peri mortem, injury premortem (anti..whatever) and injury postmortem, so quickly???
4: why the tooth injury? Imagine the state of a body after 11 days? how come the tooth could not be classed as injury postmortem if they believe she washed down in a fast moving torrent filled with rocks, branches snags, and big giant pylons?
and, what is the difference between a body that is submerged and has one which has been left on dry land? what happens to a body that has been submerged, before adipocere starts?
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Hi Minni :) Given that we can only surmise as to exactly WHAT they saw when the body was discovered, we can only go on the rumours. So basically, I can only guess along with the rest of you as to how they deduced it was murder - eg clingfilm or plastic bag over the head, etc. Or else, the whole thing about the only injury being a chipped tooth may be a furphy.

The difference between ante-mortem and post-mortem injuries is not usually obvious on initial examination of a body that has been moved. It can be quite obvious under the microscope, of course, but the reason I mention the movement of the body is that any bleeding or blood spatter analysis would not be possible, which is one way of telling ante- from post-mortem injuries. The amount of bleeding, and the distance of any arterial spray, for example, can give good indications - but not in this case. Also, one would have to take into account any damage caused by creatures such as bush animals if she were place in the bush prior to being washed into the creek, and then water creatures after that.

So I was quite surprised that the police seemed to come out with those statements so quickly. But don't forget that the autopsy was done with very little delay after the body was found, and the body released for burial. So - much of that information may well have been known within the first day or two anyway.
 
Mani said:
Yes, good point - I wonder how long a car takes to cool down and if there are tests for that based on ambient air temperature during the night etc.

Never thought about that but it is a valid point I believe IMO
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Yes, I found that talk about the cars possibly still being warm VERY interesting, and quite possibly what may have alerted them to foul play... especially if he didn't mention that he had gone out to look for her. AND if he did say he'd gone to look, well maybe the cars weren't hot enough for that to be true.
 
wakeskate said:
Never heard of any German Shephard.

The dog reported as barking was named "Scraps" and was a neighbour of the Baden-Clay house.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/pictures/gallery-e6frf94x-1226340478293?page=25
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WS, Firesnake made an observation recently - the back of the BC house is level whereas the front has all the steps - Scraps lives at the back of their property but one house away up Boscombe i.e. not their direct neighbour, there is someone in between both houses, however what FS asked was if the Captiva could be driven up behind the house.

From memory there isn't a side fence (at the right of the property) so he could have pulled the car up to the back door and put Allison inside and maybe that is why Scraps went 'off' - as he was not used to hearing a car in the backyard - just a new thought from Firesnake. IMO
 
Mani said:
That's right they need to take soil from around the body for testing apparently, however when you consider how long those foot imprints have stayed in the mud through many tidal influences, what made that outline? MOO
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Was there an outline of the stretcher in the mud as well?
 
DrWatson said:
For those discussing the blood in the back of the Captiva, which the prosecution alleges belonged to Allison - just a reminder that there is no reliable way as far as I have been able to find out by which to age or date bloodstains, once it gets beyond the first hour or two and the clotting mechanisms have done their thing. During the coagulation phase, it is possible to tell if blood is fresh or a few hours old. But once beyond that, then the blood could have got there at any time since they owned the car.

As has been mentioned before - she could have had a simple nose bleed weeks earlier.

While I agree that is unlikely, it has to be borne in mind. And of course the defence will make much of that, I presume.

The other thing that comes to mind with the recent discussion here as to where Allison was put (as opposed to where she ended up) is that a forced journey along either Kholo Creek or Little Ugly Creek would involve immense water pressure and flow pushing her along, but with numerous snags, rocks, and trees along the way. I would have thought that the further she came, the more likely there would be post-mortem injuries, especially to limbs eg arms, from the "journey". Yet the defence claimed at the bail hearing that the only sign of injury was the chipped tooth. That's one of the reasons why I lean towards the Little Ugly Creek dumping point, near the "parking area" as it is relatively close to the final resting position. A rapid journey on the fast-flowing current all the way from Wirrabara Road would involve a much greater chance of post-mortem injuries, I would have thought, if the body would have even got all the way through from there. I'm keeping an open mind on that drop-off point.

I wonder if the defence will change their strategy and claims once all the prosecution material becomes available on Monday? And I wonder if or when we'll get to find out?
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This is a valid argument as one can only guess as to what injury could occur to a body that is caught up in fast water with snags etc. IMO

Ever since reading your post about that drop off point, I keep thinking about quick and easy. IMO
 
minni said:
it may have been one of the reasons they were suspicious so early on, Thinking....apart from the DV rumours, the first officers to go to his house might have seen several things wrong with the cars, like warm enginges, just been cleaned, water pooling under them to indicate cleaning....maybe no leaves or no condensation on them... the toys in the boot

But, remember, there was a report that stated clearly (maybe the affidavit)
'when the police arrived, he offered information as to why he had scratches...BEFORE anyone ever even looked at them
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Well, that proves exactly what a total idiot he is... IMO
I mean, your wife is missing, you are supposedly soooo worried that you've texted her and made the kids lunches {probably even checked yourself in the mirror}, but yet you feel the need to explain why you have scratches on your body??
 
Makara said:
Was there an outline of the stretcher in the mud as well?
Click to expand...

Good question.

Min and I searched for some hours trying to find a particular picture of the stretcher we had both seen. So much has been deleted from msm. It was down in the mud but not where that mark is from memory but I could be wrong on that IMO.

Makara, I have looked at the photos. The stretcher is on the left hand side of the bridge and so is that mark, so it could be the stretcher that created it.
 
linette said:
Well, that proves exactly what a total idiot he is... IMO
I mean, your wife is missing, you are supposedly soooo worried that you've texted her and made the kids lunches {probably even checked yourself in the mirror}, but yet you feel the need to explain why you have scratches on your body??
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Yes total dope - anyone with children can tell why various excuses are given before questions are asked let alone experienced police
It will all be in his total undoing I wonder if he will break and confess during the trial - my OH thinks he will but only because he wouldn't be able to keep it up
 
minni said:
help me out here....is this before Allison was winched up on the stretcher......have I been right all along? I dont see how her body is in the mud here?
could it be late in the afternoon, after she has been removed? the shadows look long
if so, then disregard what I asked :)
http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2012/04/30/1226342/954549-body-recovered.jpg
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My guess is well after for these reasons.

Here is the body with the tarp in the stretcher about to be bought up.
position.jpg

Notice the green shade, 10+ people.

Now they are packing up.
900643-baden-clay-kholo-bridge-where-body-was-found.jpg


Now they are walking away
954549-body-recovered.jpg


Green tent should be visible in this last shot as it was setup above the first pylon.
 
DrWatson said:
Hi Minni :) Given that we can only surmise as to exactly WHAT they saw when the body was discovered, we can only go on the rumours. So basically, I can only guess along with the rest of you as to how they deduced it was murder - eg clingfilm or plastic bag over the head, etc. Or else, the whole thing about the only injury being a chipped tooth may be a furphy.

The difference between ante-mortem and post-mortem injuries is not usually obvious on initial examination of a body that has been moved. It can be quite obvious under the microscope, of course, but the reason I mention the movement of the body is that any bleeding or blood spatter analysis would not be possible, which is one way of telling ante- from post-mortem injuries. The amount of bleeding, and the distance of any arterial spray, for example, can give good indications - but not in this case. Also, one would have to take into account any damage caused by creatures such as bush animals if she were place in the bush prior to being washed into the creek, and then water creatures after that.

So I was quite surprised that the police seemed to come out with those statements so quickly. But don't forget that the autopsy was done with very little delay after the body was found, and the body released for burial. So - much of that information may well have been known within the first day or two anyway.
Click to expand...

Doc that still doesn't answer the question. Minni asked what are the differences, post, peri ante mortem re injuries. Surely this would loosely tie into any circulation of blood around the body and if sustained injuries happened whilst the heart was still pumping etc. in other words close to your area of expertise. Would like to see your thoughts.
 
I think it's Interesting that police and others who didn't know Allison have treated her with more respect than her husband did
 
Maigret said:
Yes total dope - anyone with children can tell why various excuses are given before questions are asked let alone experienced police
It will all be in his total undoing I wonder if he will break and confess during the trial - my OH thinks he will but only because he wouldn't be able to keep it up
Click to expand...

Wouldn't it be great if he did. What are the chances that he's waiting to see just what the police have against him, and then he will decide which way to go. I have a feeling though, even if he pleads guilty that it won't be his 'fault'. He will have something up his sleeve, but somehow I don't think it's going to help much!!
 
* #711 * *
Today, 06:24 PM

Maigret
I think it's Interesting that police and others who didn't know Allison have treated her with more respect than her husband did
Click to expand...
well said!!!
 
linette said:
Yes, I found that talk about the cars possibly still being warm VERY interesting, and quite possibly what may have alerted them to foul play... especially if he didn't mention that he had gone out to look for her. AND if he did say he'd gone to look, well maybe the cars weren't hot enough for that to be true.
Click to expand...

One would assume if his story was that she went out for a walk, he would have at least driven a lap of her normal walking path.
Again we don't know for sure.

However making an assumption of something (police noticing cars warm) on another assumption (that he hadn't been out in them) is getting pretty out there.

Next thing people will be telling us theories based on dreams they have had :floorlaugh:
 
linette said:
I don't think you're talking bluntly at all... the way she was treated is FACT !!! I know we don't know what happened, but the way she was treated is fact.
GBC is the one that reduced her from being a beautiful woman to a 'body'... not us. {I'm not implying that she is no longer beautiful, but you know what I mean.}
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thanks Linette...you are right , there is not a way that you can talk about murder without being blunt, but it still makes me feel like crap when I talk about scenarios where Allisons body is treated like trash, even thought murdering her is the ultimate disregard and disrespect of a person, and I cant make it seem worse. You state it perfectly when you say 'GBC is the one that reduced her from being a beautiful woman to a 'body'... not us.

But he didnt really, in our minds we dont see her any other way than a beautiful woman and mother.
He failed at that too.
 
minni said:
there was a man here in Cairns last year who murdered his wife then disposed of her body in a tub of acid..he was charged with murder and interfering with a corpse too.
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I am pretty sure that interfering with the corpse is going to simply come down to the fact that the body was moved from it's place of death.
 
CJ60 said:
Thanks for this Makara...

So is this area where you took your mud shots from, Mani and Minni?
Click to expand...

CJ there are three datum points down in the mud; a large white concrete block, like a Besser block, the roof tile and a small grate/cage looking thing.

I have just been looking at the photos we took (including Wakeskate's) and I can't find one that has all three items in it in order to see how far away those marks in the mud are from the concrete block.

Also in the photo posted by Makara, I can't see the white block or the other two items - although forensics are probably in the way with the latter two. IMO

The mud shots were taken from the left hand side of the bridge mainly.
 
minni said:
thanks Linette...you are right , there is not a way that you can talk about murder without being blunt, but it still makes me feel like crap when I talk about scenarios where Allisons body is treated like trash, even thought murdering her is the ultimate disregard and disrespect of a person, and I cant make it seem worse. You state it perfectly when you say 'GBC is the one that reduced her from being a beautiful woman to a 'body'... not us.

But he didnt really, in our minds we dont see her any other way than a beautiful woman and mother.
He failed at that too.
Click to expand...

Ditto !! He really can't get anything right, can he?
 
wakeskate said:
I am pretty sure that interfering with the corpse is going to simply come down to the fact that the body was moved from it's place of death.
Click to expand...

Well we don't know, and until we know the facts I am comfortable considering all scenarios based on what we can sleuth. Unless you have inside info Wakeskate that you can share I will keep an open mind.
 
marlywings said:
Just another committal mention on 3rd September Makara. I don't think it'll get to the hearing until some time early next year. A while back I mentioned another high profile case which is nowhere near a hearing...the accused has been in prison for over 12months now. Also, Sica's case took around 8-9mths to get to a hearing.

July 09, 2012

Magistrate Callaghan ordered that the brief of evidence be handed to the defence by no later than August 20, except for the accountant's statement.

The matter will return to court on September 3 for a committal mention

http://www.news.com.au/national/pol...n-clays-finances/story-fndo4ckr-1226420987727
Click to expand...

Yeah Marly, it's only wishful thinking on my part that the committal hearing will kick off on the 3rd. And God knows how long the forensic accountant's statement will take. Hopefully GBC has left a good paper trail for them.
 
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