GUILTY NY - DM, 6, & FM, 12, Huevelton, 13 August 2014 - #1

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Multiple studies have been done, and there is no reliable scientific data to show that children who are abused become abusers.

I have a relative who did therapy for civilly committed sex offenders. ( a job she walked off of one day because she could not stand it one more minute). She said that most of the sex offenders had been emotionally abused. That was the biggest cause rather than being sex abused.

But who knows as they are such liars. And NOTHING is ever their fault.
 
I have a relative who did therapy for civilly committed sex offenders. ( a job she walked off of one day because she could not stand it one more minute). She said that most of the sex offenders had been emotionally abused. That was the biggest cause rather than being sex abused.

But who knows as they are such liars. And NOTHING is ever their fault.

I agree. I don't believe there is ever a reliable way to know this. it relies on criminals who commit the lowest of the low crimes, to be truthful.

This has nothing to do with anyone specifically, but just a general thought.
I just think those broad strokes are so dangerous. There are a lot of people in this forum who were sexually abused, and would never hurt a child. I think those statements are unfair to all victims...especially when there isn't proof. It's SO hard to come forward with sexual abuse, even as an adult. These kind of stigmas really hamper people being willing or able to come forward. Who wants to be known as someone who is more likely to abuse a child?
 
I think if you stay and listen to them they'll trip themselves up eventually. All liars do. However, I don't think I could stay that long either.
 
A huge savings grace in this disturbing case, is that the girls are alive and have the support of a large, loving family and community.
The alleged perps will presumably lose the respect and trust of their families and communities, and be forever known as vile, weak losers. imo.
As for claiming insanity, how is it that people who commit these crimes always seem to say they were " so crazy they didn't know what they were doing', yet are sane enough to run away and deny culpability?? jmo.



http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20140817/NEWS05/140818993

"Noah Yoder, a 35-year-old Amish father who lives near the Millers, said Amish families probably will be more cautious about their children coming into contact with strangers as a result of the incident, especially those who operate vegetable stands.

“I wouldn’t be surprised if they would keep a little more eye on it,” Mr. Yoder said.

However, he said he didn’t believe the incident would damage relationships Amish families have developed with the non-Amish.

“We can’t be afraid of your people,” Mr.Yoder said as he spoke with a reporter outside his home Sunday afternoon.

He was joined by three Amish friends and two of his four children.

While the Amish may be forgiving to those who have harmed them, Mrs. Johnson-Weiner said, it doesn’t mean they simply move on as if nothing happened.

“They forgive. It doesn’t mean they forget,” she said."
 
Sure enough. I found Nicole Vaisey on fetlife as "nikkiefv". She is listed as a submissive in the Ogdensburg, ny area age 25 and with a picture of her naked breasts as an avatar. The breasts appear to have a large number of red marks on them that are normally the kind of wounds you see with needle play.
 
What a disturbing series of revelations about this couple. It just gets worse and worse. I hope this is safe enough to post. Mods-if out of bounds-delete.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FetLife

What really amuses me is the lawyer conjuring up that shades of gray book....and then calling what they (perps) did went to the 51st. Is the attorney trying to appeal to a certain subset of society who would call the female (alleged) perp in this case 'normal' and then taken one degree more (51st) as to be now abnormal but -gosh-she was duped? Weak weak weak. I just hope a jury wouldn't buy that.
He is indeed spinning a defense. Facts tell the real story.


jmo
 
I agree, modesty blaise. Something happened during their captivity...was it something spiritual, even, that convicted them during this crime? Did the girls start praying? (Remember the little boy who was kidnapped and started singing a favorite gospel song in the back seat until his captor stopped the car and told him to get out? ;))

Also...at first we were told they'd been dropped off at a home in Richville, and escaped. But the fact that there are only two crime scenes (their vegetable stand area and the home of the perps) rules out another home being in the picture. So I think the later version (that they were dropped off by their captors--the version at the press conference)--must be the accurate one.

I think they got scared and wanted to get rid of them quickly. I;m hopeful they haven't done this before and the publicity scared them.

http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20140817/NEWS05/140818993

Mose (father): "“It’s sad,” “They must have ruined their whole life.”

Barbara (mother): "grateful to have her girls back home, but daily life has not yet returned to normal at the two-story white farmhouse they share with their 14 children" "“We feel relieved we have them. It’s still not like it was,”

(older sister, age 19) said her two sisters are not speaking much about their ordeal.
“(Talking about it) just makes it scarier for them,” she said.

And they shouldn't talk about it. I've read a lot about trauma in children and talking about horrible things re-traumatizes children. There are better ways to help them heal - tons of community and family support, going back to normal and having control over certain aspects of their lives are fantastic, apparently.

"Myths and Facts"
April 2014

The Office of Sex Offender Management (OSOM) and the Division of Criminal Justice Services (DCJS) are not endorsing any of the research cited below, nor taking sides on these issues. Instead, we are presenting a balanced summary of what we know (and do not know) concerning these issues.

Myth: Children who are sexually assaulted will grow up to sexually assault others.
Fact: A percentage of sex offenders were abused as children, although certainly not the majority

Becker and Murphy (1998) estimated that while 30 percent of sex offenders were sexually abused as children, 70 percent were not.

Hindman and Peters (2001) found that 67 percent of sex offenders initially reported experiencing sexual abuse as children, but when given a polygraph ("lie detector") test, the proportion dropped to 29 percent, suggesting that some sex offenders exaggerate early childhood victimization in an effort to rationalize their behavior or gain sympathy from others.


Myth: Only males commit sex offenses.
Fact: Although most offenders are male, females commit sex offenses too.

As of April 2014, about 2 percent (769) of the people required to register under New York's Sex Offender Registration Act (SORA) were female (data from the New York State Division of Criminal Justice Services, Sex Offender Registry).

http://www.criminaljustice.ny.gov/nsor/som_mythsandfacts.htm

It totally depends on the study:

Results:We observed a higher prevalence of sexual abuse history among adult sex offenders
than among non-sex offenders (Odds Ratio = 3.36, 95% confidence intervals of 2.23–4.82).
The two groups did not significantly differ with regard to physical abuse history (OR = 1.50,
95% CI = 0.88–2.56). There was a significantly lower prevalence of sexual abuse history
among sex offenders against adults compared to sex offenders against children (OR = 0.51,
95% CI = 0.35–0.74), whereas the opposite was found for physical abuse (OR = 1.43, 95%
CI = 1.02–2.02).
Conclusion: There is support for the sexually abused–sexual abuser hypothesis, in that sex
offenders are more likely to have been sexually abused than non-sex offenders, but not more
likely to have been physically abused.We discuss potential mechanisms for the relationship
between sexual abuse history and sexual offending, including the possibility that a third
factor might account for the relationship.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=TMx_2t_blXperh4j9QhlwQ&bvm=bv.73231344,d.cGU

Among the studies that have examined childhood maltreatment (including sexual victimization) among sex offenders, there is quite a bit of variation. But there does seem to be a relatively high prevalence of sexual or physical abuse among samples of sex offenders. This seems to suggest that there may be some sort of relationship between having been maltreated and later engaging in sex offending behaviors, especially when other kinds of vulnerability or risk factors are present. But in and of itself, there is no research that supports the notion that it actually causes sex offending. And we know that there are many people who have been subjected to physical, sexual, or emotional abuse during their childhood or adolescence, yet they never go on to commit sex offenses. You may also find it interesting to know that when researchers have attempted to explore recidivism among sex offenders based on a history of sexual abuse, no relationship has been found. http://www.csom.org/train/etiology/3/3_1.htm

I actually think the numbers are much higher. There is evidence that criminals usually downplay abuse they themselves suffered. For example, Bundy described an idyllic childhood. He denied abuse. But family members and other described his father/grandfather as violent and abusive, who abused his wife, the family pets, tortured animals and threw his daughter down the stairs for sleeping in.

It is unlikely Bundy was being truthful.
 
So do we believe the "slave" claim or is that just a "he made me do it!" cry for forgiveness?

I can believe it. They did find lots of S&M stuff at their house. What I don't believe is that she was "enslaved" by him or that she didn't willing go along with anything.

I had a friend, online friend, that was a masochist. Honestly, I think he was just a really confused young man. He had some mental health issues. First he was into S&M, and then he wasn't sure if he was gay and finally he dabbled in the furry community. It was pretty bizarre, but I learned a lot. He pointed me to a blog one time of a dom/sub married couple. The wife was the dom and the husband was the sub. It was mostly the wife's POV and about her struggles to stay in the dom frame of mind all the time. She was willing, but the husband demanded that it was 100%, all the time. He was happier that way.

Sooooo. . .just because she is the "slave" doesn't mean that all of this wasn't her idea. Not that I believe it necessarily was. But I believe she was a willing participant. Btw, my friend would have never hurt a child in a million years. Nor as a sub, would he have went along with a plan that victimized a child. He made it clear that it was all consensual. It had a lot to do with trust and everyone involved had to be on the same page. . .safe words, etc.

Not for me. But between consenting adults? Hey, whatever floats your boat.
 
What is the " furry community " your friend "dabbled in " ? Do I even want an answer ?
 
What is the " furry community " your friend "dabbled in " ? Do I even want an answer ?

Probably not. I'm not sure I really understand it much. People dress up in furry mascot type costumes. I guess there are people that are still furries, but not into the sexual aspect of it. My friend was into the sexual aspect of it.

You can read more here. . .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry_fandom
 
Multiple studies have been done, and there is no reliable scientific data to show that children who are abused become abusers.

That's true. But the converse is not true. In other words, there is no evidence that kids who are abused are more likely to become abusers and in fact, studies show most do not. However there are plenty of studies that show a high prevalence of childhood abuse among offenders.
 
That's true. But the converse is not true. In other words, there is no evidence that kids who are abused are more likely to become abusers and in fact, studies show most do not. However there are plenty if studies that show a high prevalence of childhood abuse among offenders.

Which means absolutely nothing.

ETA: lol...my answer was not supposed to be that curt. There was actually more and I have no idea what happened. Too tired to re-do. Just wanted to clarify, I wasn't being argumentative there.
 
I agree. I don't believe there is ever a reliable way to know this. it relies on criminals who commit the lowest of the low crimes, to be truthful.

This has nothing to do with anyone specifically, but just a general thought.
I just think those broad strokes are so dangerous. There are a lot of people in this forum who were sexually abused, and would never hurt a child. I think those statements are unfair to all victims...especially when there isn't proof. It's SO hard to come forward with sexual abuse, even as an adult. These kind of stigmas really hamper people being willing or able to come forward. Who wants to be known as someone who is more likely to abuse a child?

It is true that most abused children do not become abusers and it is also true, at the very same time, that most criminals were abused as children in some way and those statements do not contradict.

I guess that's confusing but they are two very different things. It's analogous to saying that most pit bulls and Rottweilers are sweet and not vicious yet pit bulls and Rottweilers account for 75% of the dog bite fatalities. Obviously, something needs to be added to the mix.
 
Which means absolutely nothing.

ETA: lol...my answer was not supposed to be that curt. There was actually more and I have no idea what happened. Too tired to re-do. Just wanted to clarify, I wasn't being argumentative there.

Of course it means something. Anything that significant statistically has meaning. I think sometimes people read facts and dates from an emotional point of view and can miss what the data implies as a result.
 
I find myself wondering if both perps dropped those little girls off, or if it were just one of them? Like, maybe the other was planning to sell them or kill them or something, and the other snuck them out.

ETA: well, thanks to posting by SDHelps, it looks like both perps dropped the girls off. Curiouser and curiouser

I also keep coming back to the way SH has a FB link for his house "Steve's place" https://www.facebook.com/pages/Steves-Place/175678792521221 and indicates it's a "business." You can click on people who have "visited" And he constantly refers to it.

Interesting...

What service does "Steve's Place" provide?

:waitasec:
 
Interesting...

What service does "Steve's Place" provide?

:waitasec:

One shudders to think.

Can't help but wonder, what sort of guy chooses a girlfriend 14 years his junior, who bears remarkable likeness to his pre-adolescent daughter?

And...if Nicole Vaisey's theory (for her study) was correct -- that viewing *advertiser censored* inures one to rape -- I can't help but wonder just how much (child?) *advertiser censored* she observed before she got to the point of twisted thinking that it was in any way ok to kidnap 2 little Amish girls and starve and abuse them for 24 hours?
 
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