Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL*#5

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Knox was rushing that morning? She arrived at the cottage around 10:30 and it was two hours later that she was concerned. In the meantime she had a shower and brunch. What was rushed?

Guede's DNA was not in the system. His fingerprints were taken when he was found at the daycare. Knox most likely had no way of knowing that his fingerprints had been taken. I doubt that Guede mentioned the daycare incident. Knox identified a black man in the murder. If anyone saw a black man running down the street after the murder, by not mentioning Guede, at least it didn't come back to her.

Yeah, she was rushing back to meet RS for brunch, AK strikes me as carefree, I could see how she would not have seen such light prints.

And why wouldn't she had led police straight to RG instead of PL if she intended to frame him?

I meant RG was in the system, I was not sure if it was DNA or finger. But AK had no one of knowing that. If RG finger was not in the system they might never have caught him so why would AK leave RG bloody prints there? Why risk leading the police to RG and it is also inconsistent to leading them to PL instead of RG? Surely she would have known the blood would not have matched PL but if she wiped it away it would have been ambiguous.
 
Do you remember how he explained the cut on his fingers?
The photo of the wounds on his hand is from his arrest in Germany, weeks later. He said he got cut by the Italian man who killed Meredith, but he went to see his friends before he left for Germany and they all testified that he had no wounds on his hands. It is actually one of the many reasons the SC in his case said Guede's version of events is not reliable.
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/PDF/rudy_supreme_court_sentencing_report.pdf
 
Perpetrators of a knife attack do not cut themselves because the victim is "wiggly", it is because they miscalculate how tightly to grasp the knife when stabbing, and their hand slips because they are not grasping hard enough. They run their own hand down the blade. That is also the question related to Knox's DNA on the alleged murder weapon - was that a hand slipping down the knife?

Meredith was not knocked out. She did not have "knock out" injuries. Knox got it right when she said that Meredith slowly bled to death - slowly losing consciousness from blood loss.

The prosecutor mentioned bruising on Meredith's face from being muffled and prevented from screaming. Neighbors her a scream. Knox reported hearing a scream. Didn't Guede also mention a scream?

By knocked out I don't mean literally knocked on the head, I mean unconsciously,unable to fight back. Once MK was bleeding to death, I doubt she could have instigated this counterassault. My point is the point where she was pretty much out of it could have happened very quickly even though literal death took 10 minutes.

Of course she screamed and when AK was asked to imagine a scenario she put a scream in there bc everyone would scream when they are being stabbed.

I would suspect there would be more evidence of a hand against the mouth, such as DNA or print of a hand as opposes to just the prosecutions argument that she was muzzled. In other cases, they often cite such evidence. I also think that the person would have gotten blood all over their hand bc I think (though I am not sure) that MK would have been bringing up blood. Maybe someone is a doctor and would know that for sure.

If AK hand was on the alleged murder weapon she would have been gripping it tightly. There should have been all kinds of regular touch DNA on that and there should have been blood on it. How could you stab someone and not have blood on the stabbing object? I have never heard anyone answer that question
 
Yeah, she was rushing back to meet RS for brunch, AK strikes me as carefree, I could see how she would not have seen such light prints.

And why wouldn't she had led police straight to RG instead of PL if she intended to frame him?

I meant RG was in the system, I was not sure if it was DNA or finger. But AK had no one of knowing that. If RG finger was not in the system they might never have caught him so why would AK leave RG bloody prints there? Why risk leading the police to RG and it is also inconsistent to leading them to PL instead of RG? Surely she would have known the blood would not have matched PL but if she wiped it away it would have been ambiguous.

Knox did not try to "frame" someone that was involved in the murder. She attempted to deflect attention by accusing Mr Lumumba of murder.

Guede's finger prints were in the system. Knox may have known that. She didn't accuse Guede. She accused Mr Lumumba. Knox assumed that she would be released after implicating Mr Lumuba, and if the blood or prints were not a match to Mr Lumuba, he would be released soon enough.
 
Knox did not try to "frame" someone that was involved in the murder. She attempted to deflect attention by accusing Mr Lumumba of murder.

Guede's finger prints were in the system. Knox may have known that. She didn't accuse Guede. She accused Mr Lumumba. Knox assumed that she would be released after implicating Mr Lumuba, and if the blood or prints were not a match to Mr Lumuba, he would be released soon enough.

I know, but why bother not to clean RG DNA if she didn't want him implicated in teh murder? She would have wanted to deflect attention from all 3 of them so she would have wiped everything. Why leave RG evidence? She might have left it to make it out for RG to be sole perp but why take the risk he would turn on her. Why not just get rid of all evidence?

It could be she was interrupted or time too short. But I don't see why she would have wanted to clean some evidence and not others
 
By knocked out I don't mean literally knocked on the head, I mean unconsciously,unable to fight back. Once MK was bleeding to death, I doubt she could have instigated this counterassault. My point is the point where she was pretty much out of it could have happened very quickly even though literal death took 10 minutes.

Of course she screamed and when AK was asked to imagine a scenario she put a scream in there bc everyone would scream when they are being stabbed.

I would suspect there would be more evidence of a hand against the mouth, such as DNA or print of a hand as opposes to just the prosecutions argument that she was muzzled. In other cases, they often cite such evidence. I also think that the person would have gotten blood all over their hand bc I think (though I am not sure) that MK would have been bringing up blood. Maybe someone is a doctor and would know that for sure.

If AK hand was on the alleged murder weapon she would have been gripping it tightly. There should have been all kinds of regular touch DNA on that and there should have been blood on it. How could you stab someone and not have blood on the stabbing object? I have never heard anyone answer that question

How long does it take to bleed out? Was it 20 minutes? Was it 40 minutes? That's how long it was for her to be "knocked out".

People that are blitz attacked with a knife might not have a chance to scream, particularly if they are stabbed in the chest or neck.

There is bruising on the mouth area which supports the theory that Meredith was restrained from screaming after the first scream. This was part of the recent trial where Crini mentions bruising not only to her face, but also elbows. What does restraint bruising on the elbow look like?
 
If you look at the pics on the pro innocence website you can see they are faint, I don't think you necessarily would notice them, they were not dripping in blood. She also appeared to be rushing that morning and she appears like she is a bit weird.

Why would AK want to frame RG? If she saw the prints and was involved in the murder why not clean them? She had no way of knowing RG DNA was in the system. Why risk leading the police to RG who could blow her story and turn on her instead of wiping away ALL the evidence and leaving the murder unsolved?

I think it is attributing a little too much to AK to think she had the wherewithal to spontaneously kill someone, and then frame someone else for the murder, wiping away some evidence but not others. I guess she was not framing him, but she would be having RG take the fall. I would think she would rather it remain unsolved than risk RG being singled out at all.

And if she wanted to frame him, why would not she have mentioned RG instead of PL?

The leaving the crime "unsolved" makes sense. Wiping up RG's footprints. But then....what we would have is clear sign of clean-up/cover-up. I don't think Amanda and RS wanted that. They wanted people to think that a burglar came in and murdered Meredith, in a burglary gone wrong. They wanted people to believe it was as simple as that.

If there were no signs of the burglar walking out of the house, or for that matter any signs of him after the murder room....investigators would say, what happened? Who cleaned this? How could it be that all traces of the perp vanish suddenly? That would lead to questions, and they didn't want questions. They wanted a straight-forward, simple explanation.....that see, there is the burglar, he comes in through staged window, murder, and then walks out.

Maybe they didn't know that the police would even be able to trace it back to Rudy. I don't know, I admit this part doesn't make complete sense. I do think, however, that their main goal that night was obviously to erase any connections to them. They were mainly worried about their own evidence of involvement in the murder. If they had completely cleaned-off everything, or as much as possible, that would have made them look more suspicious, since Amanda was the one who lived there and was in town. What the investigators would have is a dead body in the home, and no signs of anyone, meaning someone cleaned something up. And that would naturally lead to questions about whether someone in the house was involved. That was the last thing Amanda wanted. She wanted to divert attention as far away from her as possible.

The thing is, the plan for the cover-up happened after the murder had already occured. At that point, Rudy was in the picture, there was no way to take him out. So at that point, the best they could do was try to control the situation as much as they could, and minimize whatever they could concerning their own involvement.

Maybe they thought, if Rudy got caught, they would deal with it later. I woudl assume the natural instinct would be to get through the immediate things - such as discovery of the body, initial questioning. I doubt they thought that far in advance, other than making the initial cover-up plan to try to point attention another way. Maybe they thought, we'll get to Rudy IF the time comes.

Maybe they thought, no one will believe him over us. If he gets caught, we'll just say, we didn't do it. We'll just deny everything. No one is going to believe the Black man over us. This actually seems like the most plausible thing, now that I'm thinking about it more. I believe this is what their mind-set was.

First, distract attention from them. Second, deal with what happens later. Third, deal with Rudy if he gets caught. And dealing with Rudy meant denying his story, and believing that no one would believe him over them.

That makes sense then, why they would leave signs of him. They needed, obviously, signs that a burglary took place and that someone, other than them, committed the crime. IF they couldn't identify Rudy, they win. All sides win. IF they caught Rudy, they still win (in their minds) because no one will believe the Black man with shady past over them, college educated and coming from good homes. Rudy getting caught would, in that case, makes no big deal (long-term) deal to them. They would just explain to the police, that no we weren't there, we were at RS house. Deny, deny. Police would then say, ok you're free to go. Rudy gets sent off to prison. Amanda and RS go free and never have to worry about the nightmare again.

Except it didn't go exactly as planned.

I also have to add that, dealing with Rudy was their last choice. IF, and only if, it got to the point where the police arrested him and he said anything about them, then they would deny, deny, deny, let the Black man take the blame. That's why she accused Patrick and not Rudy. Why would she give them Rudy's name, and bring herself closer to the crime? They would have to deal with him if the time ever came, but not a minute sooner. Patrick was an easier target, he knew nothing about the crime and nothing about Amanda or RS's involvement of him, and he was a convenient target b/c he had texted Amanda that night and he knew Meredith.
 
Was the water in the cottage reported as being high in iron, turning clothing yellow? If not, then I don't think that "rust products" in the water is the cause. We know that Knox didn't clean - that was a point of contention between Knox and her housemates. I doubt that she tracked iron rich water or cleaning products that she didn't use down the hallway, so it must have been something else.

Why wouldn't Knox have stopped dead in her tracks when she found the front door wide open, bloody footprints leading down the hall, a broken window in her roommates bedroom, blood on the bathmat, blood on the sink, feces in the toilet ... why would she leave the door unlocked, have a shower, boogie down the hall on a bathmat to get a towel, leave the toilet unflushed, take a mop and walk to Sollecito's apartment for a nice lunch, phone Meredith's phone to see if the phones had been found, phone Filomina, neglect to mention the call to Meredith's phones even though Filomina immediately asked her to make that call, went to the cottage, phoned mom, delayed phoning the Carabinieri until after the Postal Police arrived ... it's just plain bizarre.

MK probably cleaned that shower w bleach or cleaning products. AK could have showered, got that on her foot and walked around the apartment. I believe MK and AK had the same bathroom and I imagine MK would have kept it clean

There should have been MK blood if it was blood. It doesn't make sense if not MK blood

In her book, she said I thinks she rushed w the showering bc she was rushing back to meet RS

And I think AK might have just been a little bit of an airhead and very naive like some 20 years are, occupied with her infatuation w RS, rushing to go back to meet him, maybe still a little stoned from the night before. Maybe she wanted the pot to wear off more before she called, she maybe thought it was just a break in, never imagining it was a murder, seeing no urgency. Some of her actions might have been bizarre but I think she was just weird and very very very naive in the ways of the world.
 
I know, but why bother not to clean RG DNA if she didn't want him implicated in teh murder? She would have wanted to deflect attention from all 3 of them so she would have wiped everything. Why leave RG evidence? She might have left it to make it out for RG to be sole perp but why take the risk he would turn on her. Why not just get rid of all evidence?

It could be she was interrupted or time too short. But I don't see why she would have wanted to clean some evidence and not others

Perhaps the Postal Police arrived before they were ready to report anything. Knox was aware of the crime scene from 10:30 AM. Sollecito was aware of it from 12:30. Wasn't it 12:51 or so when they made the call? Apparently there were bloody footprints on the floor. They were at the cottage, waiting for Filomina and friends when the Postal Police arrived to return two phones.

If the bloody footprints were visible, why did so many people not see them?
 
Is the bloody palm print Guede's DNA? I thought that the palm print was on the pillow case and his DNA was on the shirt. Is Guede's DNA also on the pillow case?

Perhaps not enough effort was done during the autopsy to identify DNA?

It is RG palmprint but MK DNA (blood).

There is mixed MK blood and RG DNA on purse

I am not sure how many cells, etc the DNA is in the body and on the clothes. I would suspect in the body it would be more than one point. I am not sure of the clothes, if multiple spots or just one

I think the prosecution should have done more testing, tested everything in that room. Maybe there were budget constraints or sloppy DNA gathering but it was a disservice to MK not to test everything they possibly could.
 
MK probably cleaned that shower w bleach or cleaning products. AK could have showered, got that on her foot and walked around the apartment. I believe MK and AK had the same bathroom and I imagine MK would have kept it clean

There should have been MK blood if it was blood. It doesn't make sense if not MK blood

In her book, she said I thinks she rushed w the showering bc she was rushing back to meet RS

And I think AK might have just been a little bit of an airhead and very naive like some 20 years are, occupied with her infatuation w RS, rushing to go back to meet him, maybe still a little stoned from the night before. Maybe she wanted the pot to wear off more before she called, she maybe thought it was just a break in, never imagining it was a murder, seeing no urgency. Some of her actions might have been bizarre but I think she was just weird and very very very naive in the ways of the world.

If the bleach was used in the shower several days earlier (pre-Halloween), and she had a shower, washed her hair and so on, wouldn't that have washed away the last traces of bleach? Meredith didn't scour the shower with bleach after Halloween. We know what she did on the last day of her life, but she did shower after Halloween.

I don't think that the oldest child of two that were raised in a single parent home from infant/toddler onward is naive of the ways of the world.
 
Perhaps the Postal Police arrived before they were ready to report anything. Knox was aware of the crime scene from 10:30 AM. Sollecito was aware of it from 12:30. Wasn't it 12:51 or so when they made the call? Apparently there were bloody footprints on the floor. They were at the cottage, waiting for Filomina and friends when the Postal Police arrived to return two phones.

If the bloody footprints were visible, why did so many people not see them?

I think they were faint. That one sites has one pic of one, maybe there are other sites that have more. But seeing that one pic, I could see how someone could miss it. People don't tend to look at the floor when they walk. They have no reason to look at the floor.

And I think they probably were quickly found out as soon as the regular police arrived.

I think AK was rushing to meet RS for brunch, maybe did not notice them. I think there was so much confusion and the other roommates were upset, etc that no one was looking down. At this time recall they thought it was a burglary. The roommates were focusing on whether their stuff was stolen, they maybe did not look down.
 
It is RG palmprint but MK DNA (blood).

There is mixed MK blood and RG DNA on purse

I am not sure how many cells, etc the DNA is in the body and on the clothes. I would suspect in the body it would be more than one point. I am not sure of the clothes, if multiple spots or just one

I think the prosecution should have done more testing, tested everything in that room. Maybe there were budget constraints or sloppy DNA gathering but it was a disservice to MK not to test everything they possibly could.

How do we know that it was Guede's palm print on the pillow case?

The prosecutor mentioned something about the haplotype (sp?), that a Y was good enough for Guede, why isn't it good enough for Sollecito? Is anyone that understands DNA able to put this in layman's terms?

Maybe everything was tested and in total did not yield more than four results.

Can't have it both ways. Either everything was tested, and Knox is no where, Sollecito is in one place, Guede is in three places, or not enough was tested so it's not surprising that such little DNA was found.
 
I think so too, I am just saying that if she was conscious she could have been wiggling too.

I think she would have been barely able to move anything or even wiggle if one person was on top of her straddling her, and 2 other people were holding her arms/head down. That would pretty much immobilize someone. I don't know if that's the way it was, but I'm just hypothesizing if that is the way they were, the 3 of them, holding her down. There would be, IMO, no way to move at all.
 
The leaving the crime "unsolved" makes sense. Wiping up RG's footprints. But then....what we would have is clear sign of clean-up/cover-up. I don't think Amanda and RS wanted that. They wanted people to think that a burglar came in and murdered Meredith, in a burglary gone wrong. They wanted people to believe it was as simple as that.

If there were no signs of the burglar walking out of the house, or for that matter any signs of him after the murder room....investigators would say, what happened? Who cleaned this? How could it be that all traces of the perp vanish suddenly? That would lead to questions, and they didn't want questions. They wanted a straight-forward, simple explanation.....that see, there is the burglar, he comes in through staged window, murder, and then walks out.

Maybe they didn't know that the police would even be able to trace it back to Rudy. I don't know, I admit this part doesn't make complete sense. I do think, however, that their main goal that night was obviously to erase any connections to them. They were mainly worried about their own evidence of involvement in the murder. If they had completely cleaned-off everything, or as much as possible, that would have made them look more suspicious, since Amanda was the one who lived there and was in town. What the investigators would have is a dead body in the home, and no signs of anyone, meaning someone cleaned something up. And that would naturally lead to questions about whether someone in the house was involved. That was the last thing Amanda wanted. She wanted to divert attention as far away from her as possible.

The thing is, the plan for the cover-up happened after the murder had already occured. At that point, Rudy was in the picture, there was no way to take him out. So at that point, the best they could do was try to control the situation as much as they could, and minimize whatever they could concerning their own involvement.

Maybe they thought, if Rudy got caught, they would deal with it later. I woudl assume the natural instinct would be to get through the immediate things - such as discovery of the body, initial questioning. I doubt they thought that far in advance, other than making the initial cover-up plan to try to point attention another way. Maybe they thought, we'll get to Rudy IF the time comes.

Maybe they thought, no one will believe him over us. If he gets caught, we'll just say, we didn't do it. We'll just deny everything. No one is going to believe the Black man over us. This actually seems like the most plausible thing, now that I'm thinking about it more. I believe this is what their mind-set was.

First, distract attention from them. Second, deal with what happens later. Third, deal with Rudy if he gets caught. And dealing with Rudy meant denying his story, and believing that no one would believe him over them.

That makes sense then, why they would leave signs of him. They needed, obviously, signs that a burglary took place and that someone, other than them, committed the crime. IF they couldn't identify Rudy, they win. All sides win. IF they caught Rudy, they still win (in their minds) because no one will believe the Black man with shady past over them, college educated and coming from good homes. Rudy getting caught would, in that case, makes no big deal (long-term) deal to them. They would just explain to the police, that no we weren't there, we were at RS house. Deny, deny. Police would then say, ok you're free to go. Rudy gets sent off to prison. Amanda and RS go free and never have to worry about the nightmare again.

Except it didn't go exactly as planned.

I also have to add that, dealing with Rudy was their last choice. IF, and only if, it got to the point where the police arrested him and he said anything about them, then they would deny, deny, deny, let the Black man take the blame. That's why she accused Patrick and not Rudy. Why would she give them Rudy's name, and bring herself closer to the crime? They would have to deal with him if the time ever came, but not a minute sooner. Patrick was an easier target, he knew nothing about the crime and nothing about Amanda or RS's involvement of him, and he was a convenient target b/c he had texted Amanda that night and he knew Meredith.

AK might have been dumb, but RS surely would know that the DNA would eventually lead back to RG, either bc he is in the system or his name would have been brought up at some point being a local it seems who does not flush toilets. They would have interviewed all the boys downstairs friends and would have asked for DNA or prints or people they know. Also he was known to do these things so it would have led to RG at some point.

I guess the prints and bloody palm print were in MKs DNA so unless they had RGs shoes they would not have been able to connect him to the prints. But surely, if there was some sexual attempt made, at least RS would have known they would find RG eventually through DNA.

Still, I don't think AK is that smart to be so forward thinking. If you commit a spontaneous murder, I imagine you are on a high of sorts, that is why so many murderers do stupid things like RG forgetting to go back and flush the toilet.

Thing is, why wouldn't AK eliminated all evidence of RG too? Why not flush the toilet,,not even mention the mess? Sure, maybe the absence of all DNA would have put suspicion on her but DNA would have led them to RG and he would say it was her anyway.

I would think they would have wanted to clean the whole place, make it a real mystery and pin it on PL who they could not prove did it

Why point the evidence right to the co murderer? You would eliminate it.
 
How long does it take to bleed out? Was it 20 minutes? Was it 40 minutes? That's how long it was for her to be "knocked out".

People that are blitz attacked with a knife might not have a chance to scream, particularly if they are stabbed in the chest or neck.

There is bruising on the mouth area which supports the theory that Meredith was restrained from screaming after the first scream. This was part of the recent trial where Crini mentions bruising not only to her face, but also elbows. What does restraint bruising on the elbow look like?

I believe I read she was dead in 10 minutes. I think she was killed quick, that is why few screams.

She could have been tied up but RG could have taken the restrain w him. That could explain bruise to elbow
 
And if that was true, MK would not have tried to bite that person, leaving that person's DNA in her mouth? Indeed, I don't think it would have even required biting. If someone's hand covered her mouth, DNA probably would have turned up on MK body.

Are you saying no one was covering her mouth? Because I thought there was physical evidence on her showing someone covered her mouth at some point?
 
I think they were faint. That one sites has one pic of one, maybe there are other sites that have more. But seeing that one pic, I could see how someone could miss it. People don't tend to look at the floor when they walk. They have no reason to look at the floor.

And I think they probably were quickly found out as soon as the regular police arrived.

I think AK was rushing to meet RS for brunch, maybe did not notice them. I think there was so much confusion and the other roommates were upset, etc that no one was looking down. At this time recall they thought it was a burglary. The roommates were focusing on whether their stuff was stolen, they maybe did not look down.

Is it possible to post the picture here? I don't remember seeing it.

Knox and Sollecito couldn't have thought it was merely a burglary. Why would they try to break down Meredith's door if they though it was a burglary ... and Sollecito told police over the phone that nothing was stolen?

By her actions, Knox did not think that this was a burglary. She saw the broken window, the wide open door, nothing missing, she saw Meredith's locked door, the blood in the bathroom and delayed notifying authorities for almost two and a half hours. Instead of notifying authorities, she made a forgettable phone call to her mother, who was so concerned about that call that she could not forget it ... and asked her daughter about it on November 10, eight days later. Her daughter had forgotten all about it, but clearly it disturbed her mother.
 
If the bleach was used in the shower several days earlier (pre-Halloween), and she had a shower, washed her hair and so on, wouldn't that have washed away the last traces of bleach? Meredith didn't scour the shower with bleach after Halloween. We know what she did on the last day of her life, but she did shower after Halloween.

I don't think that the oldest child of two that were raised in a single parent home from infant/toddler onward is naive of the ways of the world.

I am not sure how long bleach residue stays nor do I know when the last cleaning was

I don't think just bc someone was raised in a single parent household or was the oldest child does not mean she was not naive. I think she has a very naive view of the police. However you view her guilt, how she acted the police was just naive because the police were not her friend and she was acting like she was trying to help them solve a crime. Amanda's friends and family also talk about her almost to the point of something being wrong with her. Just bc a kid can watch their younger siblings or be a latchkey kid does not mean they are experienced in the ways of the world at 20. 20 year old kids on general are goofy, they are immature, I don't know why we should expect AK is anything but a normal goofy 20 year old college kid. She was not a single mother, holding down jobs.
 
Are you saying no one was covering her mouth? Because I thought there was physical evidence on her showing someone covered her mouth at some point?

The prosecutor mentioned it on Monday. He discussed Meredith's bruises in the context of being restrained. Serious bruising on her mouth was associated with preventing her from screaming.
 
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