CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #3

Status
Not open for further replies.
A missed thought from above - is the $50K in personal property due to LAV sincerely not knowing what cash or investments AG had on 28 January 2011? It was filed on the premise that was all LAV could determine at that point in time?

It seems that would work if someone should ask - but still have doubts as the executor and her lawyer should have reasonably determined there had to be more somewhere. No need to go back to court if one already has control and no one else has legal right to a claim against the estate.
 
Wondering if anyone is able to go to the Land Registry Office in Hamilton. There are possibly 4 documents that should have AG's signature on them. They are -
Instrument no. AB319606 dated 11 December 1973, CD81890 dated 3 March 1978, CD183472 dated 10 April 1981 and WE566172 dated 6 August 2008.

These are easy to find as they are filed numerically, however putting the tape in the machine the first time may require some assistance from someone that works there.

If the oldest one has a signature then one could jump to the 2008 doc. This would give her signature over a 30 year span.

The charge should be $2.50 per copy - some charge less.

Might be fun.
 
I just read that rigor mortis sets in three hours after death with peak stiffness around 12 hours after death and then the body starts to relax after 72 hours. I don't think this has ever been discussed by LE, however, as far as we know, PK only mentioned that AG's eyes were still open, which apparently can occur once a person goes into shock.

Since, the 911 operator asked PK to check for a pulse and he said he did, it does not sound like rigor had set in when he found AG.

If rigor was evident, it would leave no doubt to the person finding the body that the person was dead, which would suggest she was murdered around 8:00 a.m. that morning. If the body was in a state of livor mortis, that may suggest she did not author the final emails and had been murdered approximately 72 hours before being found.

Please correct me if this seems all wrong.

imo
When PK described the scene for us, I personally took his description of Audrey's body as "the contorsion of her body" as rigor mortis, but it doesn't seem any of you guys here thought the same. Second paragraph respectfully snipped, bolded and underlined:
First then, questions about the scene. I realize the discrepancy between my description of the scene and Det. Hrab's. To be completely honest with you guys... I was really shocked as I started to get a sense of how gruesome LE perceived this crime to be. When I raised the door I saw Audrey lying on the floor and my eyes were immediately drawn to her face.

I looked at the scene for only a fraction of a second before darting away. I saw hardened blood on the floor and that, along with the contortion of her body was what prompted me to call 911 and tell them she was dead. While I was on the phone with 911 the woman insisted that I go back and feel for a pulse. Even though I begged her not to make me and told her I was certain Audrey was dead, she didn't relent and I walked back. I bent over her to feel for a pulse (this was my only contact with her) and immediately left the scene again. Any details outside of her face were strictly seen in my periphery and are (thankfully) unclear in my mind. It didn't appear to me that her face was blue and as best I can remember, ...
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7145607&postcount=425
 
I just read that rigor mortis sets in three hours after death with peak stiffness around 12 hours after death and then the body starts to relax after 72 hours. I don't think this has ever been discussed by LE, however, as far as we know, PK only mentioned that AG's eyes were still open, which apparently can occur once a person goes into shock.

Since, the 911 operator asked PK to check for a pulse and he said he did, it does not sound like rigor had set in when he found AG.

If rigor was evident, it would leave no doubt to the person finding the body that the person was dead, which would suggest she was murdered around 8:00 a.m. that morning. If the body was in a state of livor mortis, that may suggest she did not author the final emails and had been murdered approximately 72 hours before being found.


Please correct me if this seems all wrong.

imo

Good stuff here! :tyou: I've always thought that AG was murdered way before PK found the body - perhaps even a day or so. I also have doubts about AG sending those final emails.

I do think the killer had AG and the dogs (somehow) trapped inside the house before the killing took place. And also, when I really think about what PK said about 'not too gruesome' (paraphrased) I'm thinking the killer put AG's coat on her body AFTER he killed her.

Finally, so much talk about facebook here lately - I'm almost tempted to join FB!! I shall hold you guys responsible for my stupidity in joining FB if, in fact, I do so. For me, twitter is bad enough!! :eek:

:computer:

----------------

ETA: Quoted from Hazel:

When PK described the scene for us, I personally took his description of Audrey's body as "the contorsion of her body" as rigor mortis, but doesn't seem any of you guys here thought the same. Second paragraph espectfully snipped, bolded and underlined:


No, *I* thought it meant that her body was laying in an odd position, like sideways as if she did slip on the ice and perhaps twisted an ankle, etc. It was only when PK saw the 'eyes wide open' that he knew she was dead. :twocents:
 
When PK described the scene for us, I personally took his description of Audrey's body as "the contorsion of her body" as rigor mortis, but it doesn't seem any of you guys here thought the same. Second paragraph respectfully snipped, bolded and underlined:

THANKS HAZEL!

:gthanks:

I forgot about PK using that word "contorsion", which surely must have been rigor and it sounds like it had peaked approximately 12 hours post mortem. 911 would have wanted to make sure by asking him to check for pulse. My problem is ....... PK said laying on her back, other reports say laying face down, PK says not so gruesome --- OMG -- blood, beaten badly, body contorted, eyes open, and no doubt much more, LE says horrific -- I guess my point is whose report is the accurate one!
Not to mention, LE seems to want to keep so many details close to the vest/chest, how does LE expect the public to help as best they can without details. It just seems ridiculous -- the smallest detail might mean something to someone!! IMO
 
I just read that rigor mortis sets in three hours after death with peak stiffness around 12 hours after death and then the body starts to relax after 72 hours. I don't think this has ever been discussed by LE, however, as far as we know, PK only mentioned that AG's eyes were still open, which apparently can occur once a person goes into shock.

Since, the 911 operator asked PK to check for a pulse and he said he did, it does not sound like rigor had set in when he found AG.

If rigor was evident, it would leave no doubt to the person finding the body that the person was dead, which would suggest she was murdered around 8:00 a.m. that morning. If the body was in a state of livor mortis, that may suggest she did not author the final emails and had been murdered approximately 72 hours before being found.

Please correct me if this seems all wrong.

imo

I believe a problem here is that those concepts of rigor mortis etc are based on room temp...and the garage was likely freezing. Therefore normal concepts of rigor/livor mortis likely wouldn't apply.

I've often wondered/posted about PK's description of the eyes. The eyes go through various stages as well...but I couldn't find any studies for cold weather. I've thought there might be at least some hazing or freezing of eye fluid, but just a guess.
 
3 January 2011 seems to be the first time LAV speaks to the media about her friend AG. To paraphrase, LAV says '... private in a very big way', '.. only in her house once', '... AG never mentioned she had another friend in Brantford who lived in the same neighborhood as LAV'.

The secret friend statement always seemed off to me (one of many reasons I wanted to see the Will) - if true, why is that worth mentioning to the media when your private minded friend has just been stabbed and assaulted in a horrific way? I can' find an article or video clip quoting LAV saying - how horrible, how unthinkable or just be lost for words altogether. LAV does say it's unconscionable, however does not put up a reward of any kind for information leading to the arrest of the person(s) responsible.

On 4 January 2011 Detective Hrab is quoted in the Spec 'an executor has been found'. He doesn't say an executor has come forward - does his statement mean LE found the Will and advised LAV for the first time that she is executor and sole beneficiary? Is the secret friend LAV referred to the witnesses to the Will?

In the 3 Jan article, LAV calls AG a recluse in the last few years yet AG did get out and about (she didn't buy the Camaro to only sit in the garage) but also says AG had other friends that LAV knew of.

I don't see the point in mentioning the friends with no mention of how LAV felt about what happened. PK mentioned he would rather remember AG in life than death with not much to say about the awful way she died.

Having to speak to LE and make funeral arrangements for a close 30 year friend under such circumstances would leave me exhausted and unable to speak to the media so soon.

let's keep in mind that LAV may have said more & it wasn't aired or she wasn't asked any other questions or she may have been uncomfortable speaking at all & so just answered what she was asked
 
When PK described the scene for us, I personally took his description of Audrey's body as "the contorsion of her body" as rigor mortis, but it doesn't seem any of you guys here thought the same. Second paragraph respectfully snipped, bolded and underlined:

As a first responder, aren't you supposed to say the person's name in a very loud voice, and actually try to get them to wake up by touching.

If things were not so gruesome looking that is!!!

How was PK so sure AG was dead and not unconscious (during that fraction of a second)???

imo
 
THANKS HAZEL!

:gthanks:

I forgot about PK using that word "contorsion", which surely must have been rigor and it sounds like it had peaked approximately 12 hours post mortem. 911 would have wanted to make sure by asking him to check for pulse. My problem is ....... PK said laying on her back, other reports say laying face down, PK says not so gruesome --- OMG -- blood, beaten badly, body contorted, eyes open, and no doubt much more, LE says horrific -- I guess my point is whose report is the accurate one!
Not to mention, LE seems to want to keep so many details close to the vest/chest, how does LE expect the public to help as best they can without details. It just seems ridiculous -- the smallest detail might mean something to someone!! IMO

I agree! I think it's time they released more for the public to consider. Someone may recall something based on that. It may also help us to help them more.
 
If AG, SV and SL are connected, I'm wondering why he chose AG. It's been said that SL and SV look similar, and were around the same age. So why a 73 year old woman suddenly? Could it be the killer was coming back at xmas to visit folks in his old hometown, and decided it was time to go after his former teacher...who he blamed for all of his troubles; troubles that caused him to attack/murder. Maybe he was feeling uneasy after SV and then SL...and wanted to finally get the one he felt put him on that path (by failing him, reprimanding him, embarrassing him, etc).
 
If AG, SV and SL are connected, I'm wondering why he chose AG. It's been said that SL and SV look similar, and were around the same age. So why a 73 year old woman suddenly? Could it be the killer was coming back at xmas to visit folks in his old hometown, and decided it was time to go after his former teacher...who he blamed for all of his troubles; troubles that caused him to attack/murder. Maybe he was feeling uneasy after SV and then SL...and wanted to finally get the one he felt put him on that path (by failing him, reprimanding him, embarrassing him, etc).

interesting possibilities ...

I'm not really in the camp that Audrey's murder is related to the others - although the others could easily be connected ... the similarities to Audrey's case are, in my mind, weak ones

as you opined though, if they are connected, it's still a 'different' kind of murder as far as motive in that Audrey's might've been all about a personal sort of vendetta
 
I didn't mean sorting through AG's papers would be fun - I meant comparing the signature would be 'fun' as in interesting to see. Only the signature page would be required which is why I quoted the $2.50. Voyeurism was not my goal.

I understand disagreement with each others thoughts, but I thought showing respect towards each other was paramount to this site.

you just meant fun to sleuth I think ...

I got it & I'd do it if I lived a bit closer perhaps
 
btw, thank you for posting the will and to those who posted pics of the initials (can't recall just now who did)

I did notice the different 'g's ... still thinking about whether they mean anything significant ... I know that my signature/initials are barely legible & prone to change dependant on my mood or whether I'm rushed

I'm curious about the witnesses signatures too but as someone else stated, I loathe adobe

for those who have seen the witness signatures, do they bear any similarity to AG's?
 
If AG, SV and SL are connected, I'm wondering why he chose AG. It's been said that SL and SV look similar, and were around the same age. So why a 73 year old woman suddenly? Could it be the killer was coming back at xmas to visit folks in his old hometown, and decided it was time to go after his former teacher...who he blamed for all of his troubles; troubles that caused him to attack/murder. Maybe he was feeling uneasy after SV and then SL...and wanted to finally get the one he felt put him on that path (by failing him, reprimanding him, embarrassing him, etc).

Perhaps AG's murder was a 'convenient' copycat thing. The killer may have thought - OK, so there was SV and then SL - here's my chance to kill AG making it *seem* as though all three are related!:dunno:

That said, LE did mention that SV's killer "would likely move to a different area" and we, the public, should call LE if someone suddenly moves. (Hope my memory serves correctly here!):)
 
Found this info about rigor mortis:

http://www.somerset.k12.md.us/JMT/postmortem_changes.htm

------------

ETA: This is interesting:

b. Insulation. This may mean clothing, body wrappings, or even body fat. Anything which insulates the body will cause it to cool relatively more slowly.

c. Surface in contact with body. Part of the cooling process may involve direct conduction from the body to a contacting surface. If this contacting surface is relatively warm or cool, the rate of cooling may be retarded or accelerated, respectively.

d. Ventilation. A well-ventilated environment will speed the rate of cooling, as this would increase evaporation as well as increase heat loss through convection.

e. Environmental temperature. The colder the environment, the more rapid the cooling
 
According to PK, AG and him had spent some time tidying up:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #2

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Audrey Gleave, retired teacher, viciously murdered in home, Ancaster Ontario, #2

If it was to "purge" some of her things as PK said....where was it going? Was someone going to pick it up? Did someone have an open invitation to drop by some time over the holidays to get it? (charity group, thrift shop, etc).

Many hoarders tend to frequent places like recycle stores, thrift shops, salvation army etc. Did AG do this as well? If so, she might have called one for the purging process.

Just wondering because these places often tend to employ some characters with less than desirable pasts.

(Also...hoarding may also explain AG's lack of financial assets.)
 
Yes, I remember PK's post(s) about helping AG "purge" the house.

At the time I read that, we had also spent time de-cluttering our home. It all went to charity and/or used book sellers' places.

I'm wondering if AG was truly a "hoarder" or was she just like the rest of us who seem to love our stuff?

Hoarding is a possibility, nic. While having a cluttered home is also a possibility.

Just putting this out there for further thought!!...............:twocents:

This post is merely my way of adding to the conversation. Kindly don't be upset with me for expresing my thoughts!:)
 
Yes, I remember PK's post(s) about helping AG "purge" the house.

At the time I read that, we had also spent time de-cluttering our home. It all went to charity and/or used book sellers' places.

I'm wondering if AG was truly a "hoarder" or was she just like the rest of us who seem to love our stuff?

Hoarding is a possibility, nic. While having a cluttered home is also a possibility.

Just putting this out there for further thought!!...............:twocents:

This post is merely my way of adding to the conversation. Kindly don't be upset with me for expresing my thoughts!:)

I like to think of myself as a collector, or connoisseur :)
 
I like to think of myself as a collector, or connoisseur :)

Well, see there you go.:) I was raised to believe waste not, want not so basically I keep stuff for a looooong time!! :yes:

------------

ETA: I found a definition of hoarding:

http://www.squalorsurvivors.com/squalor/hoarding.shtml

This is quite interesting:

Hoarding has three components:

1.Acquiring possessions compulsively - compulsive buying, or collecting free things.
2.Saving all these possessions and never discarding.
3.Not organizing and maintaining all the saved possessions.
People who hoard keep things for the same reasons as anyone else:

◦For sentimental value - emotional attachment or to remember an important life event.
◦For utility value - the item is, or could be, useful.
◦For aesthetic value - the item is considered to be attractive or beautiful


:sweep:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
58
Guests online
2,533
Total visitors
2,591

Forum statistics

Threads
590,011
Messages
17,928,951
Members
228,038
Latest member
shmoozie
Back
Top