Handcuffs and Leg Irons

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Madeleine74 said:
Another factoid not mentioned in the documentary:

Brendan told police Teresa was handcuffed to the bed and her legs were in leg irons, connected to the bed as well.

Here's what was not told to the audience watching the documentary: In Avery's bedroom closet police found handcuffs and leg irons.
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If others have responded to this then sorry for the duplication.
You need to take this information in reverse order to which the police are stating.
The cops found handcuffs and leg irons in the bedroom, and then fed that info to Brendan during the interview/interrogation.
There is no evidence she was ever on that bed. If she was held there by handcuffs and leg irons, and her throat cut, there would be blood spatter everywhere, blood pooling on the mattress, and skin DNA on the handcuffs and leg irons.
As far as I've read, none of this evidence exists. Please correct me if wrong.
 
MaxManning said:
The dassey trial has testimony of police finding handcuffs and leg irons at the Janda Residence , and there were also the same items found at the Steve Avery trailer.

Also, should note that brendan was TOLD that these things existed before he ever mentioned them.

But it is true that these items were not discussed as being found in either locations in the documentary.

However, it was said in the episode 9 while cross examining :



So that accepts that cuffs were found.

It's also important to note that these were pink furry handcuffs, not something you'd expect to find in a musty torture chamber.

Just to put it into perspective, heres an image, because I myself had a different image in my head when hearing the term leg irons

2ded1e6b1e3de1b3fad82e7d60386181
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The pink furry handcuffs are not the ones found in Avery's house. They were found in the Janda/Dassey residence.
 
bessie said:
The pink furry handcuffs are not the ones found in Avery's house. They were found in the Janda/Dassey residence.
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That is true, but from the dassey trial transcripts you notice alot of trouble with one officer confusing one for the other, which led me to believe they were the same or at minimum similar.

If someone can find an image that differentiates these, I'm open to seeing them. If they look drastically different, my opinion could definitely swing in the other direction again :)
 
eyesonly said:
If others have responded to this then sorry for the duplication.
You need to take this information in reverse order to which the police are stating.
The cops found handcuffs and leg irons in the bedroom, and then fed that info to Brendan during the interview/interrogation.
There is no evidence she was ever on that bed. If she was held there by handcuffs and leg irons, and her throat cut, there would be blood spatter everywhere, blood pooling on the mattress, and skin DNA on the handcuffs and leg irons.
As far as I've read, none of this evidence exists. Please correct me if wrong.
Click to expand...


Correct. But I do see the point of posting all this, because leaving out that the items were found is misleading. Otherwise people are far more likely to disregard the theory.

Many believe as you do about brendan's testimony. But prosecution was selling to the jury it was relevant. Jury had more reason to believe the theory of the cuffs than the documentary viewer. it's a legit point. I think like you, we all were more responding to the assertion made regarding the cuffs in relation to brendan's statement by the user that posted them as missing from documentary.
 
I think the only difference between handcuff and leg irons is the length of the chain between the cuffs ? I could be wrong, just assuming based on what I have seen.

Am I the only one that gets a vision of something more primitive when hearing the term leg irons ? :) Like something you'd find connected to a wall in a dungeon.

I don't doubt that the term leg irons might be used for just that reason - just speculation though.
 
Kakidoll said:
I have a pair that look just that size... its a keyring.
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The following post in is regard to the item in the paper bag as depicted up thread in a photo and discussion of item:

At first glance I thought that it was scissor handles.
Ya, there are handcuff key rings and jewelry as well.
Nancy Grace has a handcuff necklace iirc.
Additionally; I see both key rings and jewelry while shopping in brick and mortar stores and online.

I'm trying to put everything together; which is daunting to say the least.
My original "system" to organize the facts in this case became flawed and would take far too long to redo.

Has it been established for certain what exactly the item is?
Is there any legal inventory or legal document describing what that item is?
Sorry if asked and answered, there are so many questions and not enough answers.
According to the title of the thread I presume that this item was in some sort of list of evidence?

Again, a legal document list; not MSM, authored books, witness statement etc.. list.
A concise legal document listing this particular item since that's how my "system" was designed.

As an aside; the photo depicted in court during the trial of the pink fuzzy handcuffs (photo up thread), appears to me to be something that would be more of a (trying to think of a delicate way to explain) toy, fun sex play sort of thing.
It's hard to imagine (for me at least), that they were used to viciously and brutally restrain, torture and murder the victim.

My gut feeling is that the incident never happened, and from what I know of the testimony, evidence etc... I have reasonable doubt that the incident ever happened.
 
I remember the handcuffs and leg irons being mentioned in the series, because I remember them stating that it didn't make sense that she was tied down, raped and throat cut on the bed because there was no physical DNA evidence.
There would have been blood and semen on the bed and blood spatter over quite a large area if they cut her throat on the bed as they got Brendan to say.
So all the evidence leads to the police finding these restraint items and then building a fantasy scenario and taking advantage of a young man with a very low IQ.
How could anyone let this stuff go on with this young kid. Any of his so called confessions should have been shredded by the judge.
The evidence planting was so blantant that even if Steven is truely guilty, he should not be convicted because of the actions of LE.
Because when they are allowed to do this kind of stuff at will, then no one is safe, not you nor I.
10 guilty must go free in order that we do not put one innocent person behind bars.
Yet, it has never worked this way. The system is about convictions. Especially from the crowns viewpoint. If they feel they have enough to convict, they will put the full weight and resources of their office behind it, doesn't matter about guilt or innocence.
Convictions are what eases society, and gets people re-elected.
 
The evidence planting was so blantant
Click to expand...

Planting has been suggested, but so far not proven. Believing it could have happened or might have happened is not the same as proving it did happen, and without proof, I don't know how far the defense can go with this.
 
Madeleine74 said:
Another factoid not mentioned in the documentary:

Brendan told police Teresa was handcuffed to the bed and her legs were in leg irons, connected to the bed as well.

Here's what was not told to the audience watching the documentary: In Avery's bedroom closet police found handcuffs and leg irons.
Click to expand...

THIS answers the most pressing question I have had about the crime scene, or potential crime scene, as handcuffs and leg irons were insinuated in a very brief preview of the Netflix saga, ( sorry but I can't call it a documentary at this point) then never mentioned again in connection to the crime.
The photos I saw of his bed didn't have any handcuffs or leg irons, I enlarged the photos and looked very carefully. I have been wondering if their one- time mention of it was a ratings draw or if there was truth to this. I haven't been able to find the info in court docs. but I haven't read all search warrants and property list of what was removed from the house.

Oh,wait: Since this is such a weird case all around, DID LE remove these things from the closet and from the house after obtaining a proper search warrant??
 
SeekingJana said:
THIS answers the most pressing question I have had about the crime scene, or potential crime scene, as handcuffs and leg irons were insinuated in a very brief preview of the Netflix saga, ( sorry but I can't call it a documentary at this point) then never mentioned again in connection to the crime.
The photos I saw of his bed didn't have any handcuffs or leg irons, I enlarged the photos and looked very carefully. I have been wondering if their one- time mention of it was a ratings draw or if there was truth to this. I haven't been able to find the info in court docs. but I haven't read all search warrants and property list of what was removed from the house.

Oh,wait: Since this is such a weird case all around, DID LE remove these things from the closet and from the house after obtaining a proper search warrant??
Click to expand...

Keep reading :) I think they were only briefly mentioned in the documentary because it added up to a whole lot of nothing IMO. They can dangle handcuffs and leg irons (who calls them that???) all they want, there was still no DNA on them, but there was SA's and other unknown persons DNA.

TH's DNA was NOT found on them as far as I know. There is a link to the forensic lab analysis' that were posted online.

Here is a link to some documents related to SA's case:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?298307-Documents-Steven-Avery-*No-Discussion*
 
SeekingJana said:
THIS answers the most pressing question I have had about the crime scene, or potential crime scene, as handcuffs and leg irons were insinuated in a very brief preview of the Netflix saga, ( sorry but I can't call it a documentary at this point) then never mentioned again in connection to the crime.
The photos I saw of his bed didn't have any handcuffs or leg irons, I enlarged the photos and looked very carefully. I have been wondering if their one- time mention of it was a ratings draw or if there was truth to this. I haven't been able to find the info in court docs. but I haven't read all search warrants and property list of what was removed from the house.

Oh,wait: Since this is such a weird case all around, DID LE remove these things from the closet and from the house after obtaining a proper search warrant??
Click to expand...
Standard iron handcuffs and leg irons were found in the bookcase/nightstand next to SA's bed. See BD's trial transcript, Day 2, April 17. I don't recall the page numbers, but they're mentioned in Sgt. Tyson's testimony. He was the first witness up that day. You'll find mention of them elsewhere, but that's the reference I can recall right now off the top of my head. As others have stated, however, it was much ado about nothing. JMO

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12282490

ETA: Present was a mixture of DNA consistent with SA's standard sample, and that from unknown source. Teresa and Brendan were excluded from both items.

Dassey Trial, Day 3, April 18, Culhane's testimony regarding DNA on CJ1 and CJ2 beginning on p. 95
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9dpNu3jLO3tWEtlMGRUREVQQVU/view?pref=2&pli=1

Avery Exhibit 313, Culhane's DNA analysis report, p.7
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1nzus-fCQcoYWY3cjNrV3lZa0U/view?pref=2&pli=1
 
All this time I thought the 'sex toys' that Kratz was repeatedly salivating (sweating?) about and trying to make sound ominous by calling them handcuffs and leg irons, belonged to SA.

Well, apparently not.

From Mr. McCorkle's blog, dated April 17, 2007:

So far, there is some new evidence in this trial. The prosecution has introduced leg irons and handcuffs owned by Brendan’s mother, Barb Janda Tadych. These items were found in her bedroom. Whether this is real evidence or an attempt to deceive the jury and undermine the mother remains to be seen. But, this does not fill in the blanks from the Avery Trial.​

I really should not be surprised. I recall, when seeing the fluffy pink hand cuffs...

cuffs_zpsejmukzfk.jpg

... it struck me as odd, in that JS did not seem the type that would be into the whole fluffy pink bit. Even so, this is not the main point.

From reading his Dassey archives, it appears that he thinks they were trying to "frame" several of the Averys, not just SA. He makes a compelling argument, primarily based upon the Dassey interrogations, to support his contention.

Notably, what makes his posts/opinion much, much more believable, is that, unlike us, he's not playing catch up. That is, he appears to have been following the trial. Importantly, most of his Avery/Dassey/Kratz related posts were made before the viral Making A Murderer movie was released to Netflix.
 
here are the photo's of the one's introduced into SA's trial
Exhibit-173-Handcuffs.jpgExhibit-174-Leg-Irons-150x150.jpg

I don't really understand why they were introduced into either trial.... there was nothing linking them to TH, and in fact, they did have DNA on them, SA's and 2 unidentified females, so not like he cleaned them and 'removed' TH's DNA.... unless, again, he is just that smart LOL

As for Barb's pink fluffy one's.... what relevance could they have had? Again, they didn't have TH's DNA on them. How many of us would want LE rifling through our bedrooms if one of our kids got in trouble? and anything they find, they use against them? (NOT ME LOL)

I agree about the blogger.... he has followed this for years, I read a lot of his blog when I first started researching because a lot of news stories and video's had been removed, except his.
 
What kind of handcuffs/leg irons (and are those the same thing?) were found in Avery's house? Were they real handcuffs or more like these ones found in the Janda/Dassey house (aka the cheap kind you'd find at a sex shop)? I just don't think someone could be actually be restrained that well in those sort of handcuffs since they're more for play and not for someone actually struggling to get out of them. If someone were actually in danger it seems they'd have a good chance at breaking them, slipping out of them, or pulling the metal links apart since they're probably pretty pliable. Even if they didn't successfully get out of them, the handcuffs would at least show evidence that they tried. The links in the middle would be stretched apart, there'd be DNA all over the inside from trying to slide their hands and feet out, and of course whatever they were attached to like bedposts would be covered in scratches from the metal being scraped against them in a struggle. Were these pink furry ones presented at Steven Avery's trial? Did they belong to Barb Janda or were they Avery's and hidden at the Janda household? I don't understand the point of bringing in a pair of obvious sex handcuffs without the victim's DNA or signs of struggle on them, not found at any crime scene, to somehow use as evidence. All this shows is that someone gets bored in the bedroom once in a while (and it seems like they were trying to paint him as a pervert which is irrelevant). I can't think of many torturers/rapists/murderers who shop at Lover's Lane for their supplies.
 
I can't think of many torturers/rapists/murderers who shop at Lover's Lane for their supplies.
Click to expand...

Where do they shop then? What about before they ever kill?
 
missatomiccake said:
What kind of handcuffs/leg irons (and are those the same thing?) were found in Avery's house? Were they real handcuffs or more like these ones found in the Janda/Dassey house (aka the cheap kind you'd find at a sex shop)? I just don't think someone could be actually be restrained that well in those sort of handcuffs since they're more for play and not for someone actually struggling to get out of them. If someone were actually in danger it seems they'd have a good chance at breaking them, slipping out of them, or pulling the metal links apart since they're probably pretty pliable. Even if they didn't successfully get out of them, the handcuffs would at least show evidence that they tried. The links in the middle would be stretched apart, there'd be DNA all over the inside from trying to slide their hands and feet out, and of course whatever they were attached to like bedposts would be covered in scratches from the metal being scraped against them in a struggle. Were these pink furry ones presented at Steven Avery's trial? Did they belong to Barb Janda or were they Avery's and hidden at the Janda household? I don't understand the point of bringing in a pair of obvious sex handcuffs without the victim's DNA or signs of struggle on them, not found at any crime scene, to somehow use as evidence. All this shows is that someone gets bored in the bedroom once in a while (and it seems like they were trying to paint him as a pervert which is irrelevant). I can't think of many torturers/rapists/murderers who shop at Lover's Lane for their supplies.
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I don't understand why they entered them into the trials either, they didn't have TH's DNA on them. SA's had his and 2 unidentified females DNA, and NOT TH's.

From what I understand from reading elsewhere, they were 'play' one's and the links would break or bend in a struggle, but I'm not sure. Either way.... the one's found in SA's bedroom and the pink fluffy one's found in Barb's bedroom.... did not have TH's DNA on them.
 
Madeleine74 said:
Where do they shop then? What about before they ever kill?
Click to expand...

I don't really get your question but I assume they'd purchase actual handcuffs you can't escape from or more extreme BDSM equipment. A lot of websites sell stuff like that for people who are using it consensually and a lot of people make it themselves. Of the torturers/rapists/murderers I can think of off the top of my head most of them made their own bondage devices. I'm thinking of examples like the kidnapping of Colleen Stan (luckily she wasn't murdered) or David Parker Ray but there are many others. Personally I think if Steven Avery did in fact commit the crime (personally I don't think there's enough evidence to support this), he seems like the type of person who would just use rope or zip ties. Both are inexpensive and easily disposable, you could find them at a hardware store or he might have them around his property, and they'd do a better job of keeping someone's wrists or ankles bound than cheap play handcuffs from a sex shop.
 
Both BJ and SA owned restraints to which he has admitted to. Its strange that McCorkle doesn't mention that.

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk
 
I'm just glad to finally see a picture of the "leg irons" in question... I seriously had a picture in my mind more along the lines of big, heavy ankle cuffs with a rusty padlock or something. Good to know now that we're talking basically fuzzy handcuffs with a longer chain, more "spice things up" than the "medieval torture" like I first thought.
 
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