IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #27

OldSteve · Jun 12, 2012

Jacobite said:
There is something I feel really needs said here. i took the time to do the legwork and track down someone who knew Corey Rossman. Someone who had heard his version of the story. Here's part of it. Corey wanted to be the protector that night. He wanted to be the hero. He tried to be the good guy. But, he was punched out of action. Lauren came knocking on his door and she asked him to accompany her to the bar. At the bar, they felt they were being watched and being set up. At Smallwood they were ambushed.
Corey was beat up. Lauren did not go to her room because she did not want to. She would not go home. She could not go home. Lauren and Corey did not call police to report the assault because the police would have arrested everybody. Lauren and Corey feared the police mistakenly more than they feared evil itself.
So, I had this info. Maybe, I was also the person who could have made a difference. Maybe, I could have broke the ice and got Corey to speak with Lauren's parents. Sometimes, just one person can make a difference. And, maybe this is the truth. The truth is what we seek in the end.

Wow! You would make a great PI!
It seems it would be in Lauren's parents interests to reach out to Corey and somehow assure him that they will not bring him into civil court if he provides more info. Perhaps if this could be offered to others as well, one-by-one those who are not involved could be weeded out?

Why couldn't Lauren go back to her room, what did she fear?

Jupiter812 · Jun 12, 2012

Jacobite said:
There is something I feel really needs said here. i took the time to do the legwork and track down someone who knew Corey Rossman. Someone who had heard his version of the story. Here's part of it. Corey wanted to be the protector that night. He wanted to be the hero. He tried to be the good guy. But, he was punched out of action. Lauren came knocking on his door and she asked him to accompany her to the bar. At the bar, they felt they were being watched and being set up. At Smallwood they were ambushed.
Corey was beat up. Lauren did not go to her room because she did not want to. She would not go home. She could not go home. Lauren and Corey did not call police to report the assault because the police would have arrested everybody. Lauren and Corey feared the police mistakenly more than they feared evil itself.
So, I had this info. Maybe, I was also the person who could have made a difference. Maybe, I could have broke the ice and got Corey to speak with Lauren's parents. Sometimes, just one person can make a difference. And, maybe this is the truth. The truth is what we seek in the end.

Thank you for this. I think it is possible that CR is being misunderstood.

If CR's amnesia was fictional, why would he claim he doesn't remember? Would it be because of what or who he fears?

Darcyline · Jun 12, 2012

OldSteve said:
But where to look, where is Lauren?

On the one hand, the way she is so well hidden makes it look like it was something planned, or a random attack.

If done by those around her, spur-of-the-moment; they did not have much time to plan, which should be good thing, unless they were very lucky (don't like saying it that way!).

Without much time, I lean to what's been mentioned that she was simply stashed away in a open construction pit, and by chance wasn't seen and is now beneath concrete or building structure...

I think it is easy to get lucky and not being able to find the body doesn't necessarily mean she is well-hidden. On days I procrastinate from my schoolwork (currently writing dissertation :jail

I have scrolled through many cases here. There are tons where a body wasn't found right away despite the drunken fools who "hid it" just dumping it randomly out in the open somewhere. Like, literally not even hidden under anything and within 10 miles of the abduction site/house/whatever. There are also literally hundreds of pages of missing people who have never been found. Sure, some are well-hidden or perhaps voluntarily missing, but I am sure a good other chunk just happen to be laying out somewhere and no one has stumbled over the body yet.
There are acres upon acres upon acres of woods, water, and random structures in the immediate area. Lauren could literally have been dumped somewhere in the woods out in the open or in an abandoned shed and for some reason God just hasn't thought it time for us to find her yet.

I guess if you think about how tiny a body is (especially Lauren's) and how big the world is it makes sense.

On another note, I am just no longer believing she walked away from CR/JR's complex. Not sure where exactly to go from there because accepting that premise opens up a can of worms of who knew, why, how, and where.

akh · Jun 12, 2012

Amnesia is usually the first step in an insanity defense (or temporary insanity). It shows a mental disconnect with earlier actions. So, if someone has watched enough TV they might try and play that card hoping they don't get caught, and assuming if they do that card will mitigate the punishment.

So that is one reason why he'd claim amnesia.

But just because there's a reason one would claim amnesia without it being true doesn't mean it's the case here. Clearly, people have blacked out from drugs and drinking, from concussions, and even from legitimate mental issues.

Jupiter812 · Jun 12, 2012

akh said:
Amnesia is usually the first step in an insanity defense (or temporary insanity). It shows a mental disconnect with earlier actions. So, if someone has watched enough TV they might try and play that card hoping they don't get caught, and assuming if they do that card will mitigate the punishment.

So that is one reason why he'd claim amnesia.

But just because there's a reason one would claim amnesia without it being true doesn't mean it's the case here. Clearly, people have blacked out from drugs and drinking, from concussions, and even from legitimate mental issues.

I realize that and we have pretty much discussed that ad nauseum. I was trying to get at who and what he fears...I guess the short answer is something along the lines of a drug dealer and all that that entails.

RR0004 · Jun 12, 2012

I grew up in an area around where Lauren was from. Still have friends up there. The impression that I get from talking to them is that they really think this was an abduction. Supposedly there's been lots of them in Indiana or so I've been told. Maybe it can be as simple as that...some random sicko harmed Lauren.

imkeylime · Jun 12, 2012

Jupiter812 said:
Thank you for this. I think it is possible that CR is being misunderstood.

If CR's amnesia was fictional, why would he claim he doesn't remember? Would it be because of what or who he fears?

I wonder what the PI's claim that ZO told CR to take LS to her room is based on. Unless there are other witnesses, once CR claimed amnesia, it cleared the way for ZO and Co. to say whatever they wanted, since LS is missing and CR can't counter one way or another (unless he gets his memory back).

From other interviews, I get the feeling that CR wasn't highly regarded by everyone on campus. Maybe because he's cocky and goes after other guy's girls? Also, maybe he owed a DD money or something. While the POIs are reportedly well off, they may still have budgets to operate within.

I also wonder what the interactions at the Indy 500 were like ... I believe there was an altercation involving ZO there as well.

holly2325 · Jun 12, 2012

VeryVeritas said:
Maybe he did. We don't know who the other call was too, nor which call was made first. Maybe he did call HT and no answer so then tried DR. I think you make a good point here. If the call was to HT and DR. Then this would give some weight to that theory that JR was checking to see if she made it.

On the other hand, if this other call was to someone who is more on the shady side... then it leans more towards JR's direct involvement.

One reason I doubt that the second call was to HT is that she shares so many details supporting JR's story and includes a remark like " and I believe him". Why not tell the interviewer that she has an unanswered call on her phone supporting the story.

holly2325 · Jun 12, 2012

Jacobite said:
There are conflicting accounts about just about everything including Lauren's condition. I really don't know who to believe. Try to solve this puzzle by adding links to a chain won't work. Try to build theory upon theory, huh.
Build upon a bad foundation and the whole thing will collapse.

I'm using a different method and my method works for me. It's called the big picture. Opportunity is the key for who, what, where, why, how, and etc.
I prefer doing to talking. And, I've been known to walk out of boring meetings at my own corporations because discussions are a waste of time. I'm ready to go look for Lauren and leave the others looking for her key card. After Lauren is found everyone will be singing like a bird.
We'll get the itty bitty details then.

I have a general question about buying drugs in college. Is it common to call your dealer on a phone that is not the same one he calls home to his mother on? Do casual drug dealers have two phones just to keep that life separate?

akh · Jun 13, 2012

holly2325 said:
I have a general question about buying drugs in college. Is it common to call your dealer on a phone that is not the same one he calls home to his mother on? Do casual drug dealers have two phones just to keep that life separate?

I might be naive but I think some of the drug dealer theories veer a little into "TV land" and not really cemented in reality. Not to say something drug related couldn't be what happened, but I don't think any of the common PsOI would be operating at the levels where conspiracies, separate phones, and really really bad guys would be. I think if they were at those levels that would've quickly came undone and that would be the leverage LE would use to lock them up and throw away the key if they didn't start talking.

In fact, if one of them had a problem I cannot imagine a scenario where anyone up the foodchain would help them at all. They would want to disassociate from that ASAP, not tie themselves in deeper. I don't see someone getting help, I see them being cut loose and on their own.

Again, I'm not saying drug dealing/supplying couldn't somehow be a factor, I just don't think if any of these guys had a problem there would be any vast drug dealer network ready to step in and help them clean up the mess.

holly2325 · Jun 13, 2012

Hey can any of you college students or recent grads help me understand this.

1. Do students telephone their requests to the guy with the drugs or are all requests made in person?

There were no cel phones when I was in college. My friend, a good looking guy and excellent student didn't have the family means to pay full tuition. He sold drugs from off campus housing to earn enough money to stay in school. People who wanted to buy drugs befriended his closest circle to gain an invitation to his house. I don't think any first time buyers called him on his land line but I think established ones did and spoke kind of in code to see what he had.

2. Does this casual type of distributor order and arrange delivery by cel phone?
I was there sometimes when his source delivered as I was best friends with his gf. The source guy was not shady at all. Nice clean cut guy a little older than us, never went to college and worked a day job somewhere locally. I got the impression that these two tried to stay off the phone as they talked about how much next time and which day to deliver. When I try to project this into the present I see my friend buying a go phone at a big box store to make these kinds of arrangements more efficient and ditching it if he sensed he was under investigation. Or do you think this is still done verbally?

My questions do not necessarily imply that I see one of the POI's in this role.
Thanks
holly

AbbeyR · Jun 13, 2012

VeryVeritas said:
So, is he a loser and rapes her as she's passed out? This is not unheard of... and it comes more under that gray area of date rape than rape because with all of the drinking and such, it's hard to prove whether or not it's consentual.

I don't see how this is a gray area. If someone is passed out, they can obviously not consent to anything, so date rape = rape.

Holly -- Yes, orders and deliveries are arranged by text, and the kind of people who sell party supplies to college students use their own phones, in my experience at least.

Jacobite · Jun 13, 2012

holly2325 said:
I have a general question about buying drugs in college. Is it common to call your dealer on a phone that is not the same one he calls home to his mother on? Do casual drug dealers have two phones just to keep that life separate?

You are correct. And, the reason for the secret phone is to hide shady activities from mom and dad. Moms do have a way of discovering these things, you know. Then, someone is in double trouble. But, it is common practice.

Jacobite · Jun 13, 2012

akh said:
I might be naive but I think some of the drug dealer theories veer a little into "TV land" and not really cemented in reality. Not to say something drug related couldn't be what happened, but I don't think any of the common PsOI would be operating at the levels where conspiracies, separate phones, and really really bad guys would be. I think if they were at those levels that would've quickly came undone and that would be the leverage LE would use to lock them up and throw away the key if they didn't start talking.

In fact, if one of them had a problem I cannot imagine a scenario where anyone up the foodchain would help them at all. They would want to disassociate from that ASAP, not tie themselves in deeper. I don't see someone getting help, I see them being cut loose and on their own.

Again, I'm not saying drug dealing/supplying couldn't somehow be a factor, I just don't think if any of these guys had a problem there would be any vast drug dealer network ready to step in and help them clean up the mess.

I'm not really one who follows the conspiracy theories that abound on the internet. And, there a slight chance that Lauren was kidnapped by a stranger or that she has amnesia and has run away. However, the odds are much greater that someone she knew was a very bad boy and this is a crazy story.
Someone would have to be quite unstable to have done this to Lauren and the story is what it is. And, yes, I'm quite sure it will appear on TV again.
I haven't seen any proof of anyone being a drug dealer. But, there is a rumor about a confidential informant for the police being involved that night. If this is true? That is conflict of interest. Straight up foul.

imkeylime · Jun 13, 2012

holly2325 said:
Hey can any of you college students or recent grads help me understand this.

1. Do students telephone their requests to the guy with the drugs or are all requests made in person?

There were no cel phones when I was in college. My friend, a good looking guy and excellent student didn't have the family means to pay full tuition. He sold drugs from off campus housing to earn enough money to stay in school. People who wanted to buy drugs befriended his closest circle to gain an invitation to his house. I don't think any first time buyers called him on his land line but I think established ones did and spoke kind of in code to see what he had.

Snipped by me (hopefully I did it right this time ... thanks, Bessie, for helping me before).

This is slightly OT. But it's relevant to your point that your good-looking friend who was an excellent student sold drugs (and thus to the case, I hope).

I just learned that a drug bust occurred last Friday in my little east coast town. Police and federal agents from the DEA seized more than 6 pounds of marijuana and more than $31,000 in cash during a raid on a trendy street in a great part of town. I'm assuming this isn't a huge amount of marijuana or money. But what amazes me is that I drive down this street all the time when picking up/dropping off one of my daughter's friends and have waved at the father and two sons who were arrested on more than one occasion. Neighborhood children also allegedly found syringes near the house, which is worse. I'm a bit shell-shocked, TBH.

So, IMO ... it's not necessarily off base to think that a DD was operating within these circles/vicinity. I don't have a clue about phone usage, but I would think that they do speak in code.

Jupiter812 · Jun 13, 2012

Jacobite said:
I'm not really one who follows the conspiracy theories that abound on the internet. And, there a slight chance that Lauren was kidnapped by a stranger or that she has amnesia and has run away. However, the odds are much greater that someone she knew was a very bad boy and this is a crazy story.
Someone would have to be quite unstable to have done this to Lauren and the story is what it is. And, yes, I'm quite sure it will appear on TV again.
I haven't seen any proof of anyone being a drug dealer. But, there is a rumor about a confidential informant for the police being involved that night. If this is true? That is conflict of interest. Straight up foul.

I don't think proof is necessary to say that any one or two of those boys were likely selling or providing drugs. I don't know what the diff is b/w selling and dealing, but: CR has history of possession, JR's frat has history of heavy use if not selling, coke was in Lauren's room, she and DR allegedly snorted klonopin, and there's what Bo Dietl said about the entire quadrant in that part of town where the kids' apartments are. Nah, I think you can pretty much bank on the fact that drugs were exchanged for something.

Jupiter812 · Jun 13, 2012

akh said:
I might be naive but I think some of the drug dealer theories veer a little into "TV land" and not really cemented in reality. Not to say something drug related couldn't be what happened, but I don't think any of the common PsOI would be operating at the levels where conspiracies, separate phones, and really really bad guys would be. I think if they were at those levels that would've quickly came undone and that would be the leverage LE would use to lock them up and throw away the key if they didn't start talking.

In fact, if one of them had a problem I cannot imagine a scenario where anyone up the foodchain would help them at all. They would want to disassociate from that ASAP, not tie themselves in deeper. I don't see someone getting help, I see them being cut loose and on their own.

Again, I'm not saying drug dealing/supplying couldn't somehow be a factor, I just don't think if any of these guys had a problem there would be any vast drug dealer network ready to step in and help them clean up the mess.

The only way I see dealer helping the boys would be to retain what is probably the sweetest deals to be had in Bloomington: Affluent buyers who can always pay, occasionally hang out and party with some nice-looking women, drink Belvedere vodka...what's not to like?

akh · Jun 13, 2012

Jupiter812 said:
The only way I see dealer helping the boys would be to retain what is probably the sweetest deals to be had in Bloomington: Affluent buyers who can always pay, occasionally hang out and party with some nice-looking women, drink Belvedere vodka...what's not to like?

They'd just move on to the next set of 'affluent buyers who can always pay, occasionally hang out and party with some nice-looking women, drink Belvedere vodka'.

It's a college town with a large, popular college. They wouldn't have to look far for that demographic. And don't forget, new students arrive every year so there's always turnover for 'their business'.

If anything, it wouldn't surprise me if they'd turn them in to collect the reward and get things back to normal as soon as possible on the campus before they'd help them cover anything up.

Anything is possible of course but if we're to assume a death has occurred, who among these PsOI and their circle of associates is going to become an accessory to murder, disposing of a body, part of a conspiracy, and whatever else you could think of that this would entail? .... When they have the option to steer as far away from it as possible?

Jupiter812 · Jun 13, 2012

akh said:
They'd just move on to the next set of 'affluent buyers who can always pay, occasionally hang out and party with some nice-looking women, drink Belvedere vodka'.

It's a college town with a large, popular college. They wouldn't have to look far for that demographic. And don't forget, new students arrive every year so there's always turnover for 'their business'.

If anything, it wouldn't surprise me if they'd turn them in to collect the reward and get things back to normal as soon as possible on the campus before they'd help them cover anything up.

Anything is possible of course but if we're to assume a death has occurred, who among these PsOI and their circle of associates is going to become an accessory to murder, disposing of a body, part of a conspiracy, and whatever else you could think of that this would entail? .... When they have the option to steer as far away from it as possible?

No chance of me forgetting that new students arrive every year given that I experience their arrival and exodus en masse every year. Yes, continual demand.

PlainJaneDoe · Jun 13, 2012

Darcyline said:
I think it is easy to get lucky and not being able to find the body doesn't necessarily mean she is well-hidden. On days I procrastinate from my schoolwork (currently writing dissertation :jail I have scrolled through many cases here. There are tons where a body wasn't found right away despite the drunken fools who "hid it" just dumping it randomly out in the open somewhere. Like, literally not even hidden under anything and within 10 miles of the abduction site/house/whatever. There are also literally hundreds of pages of missing people who have never been found. Sure, some are well-hidden or perhaps voluntarily missing, but I am sure a good other chunk just happen to be laying out somewhere and no one has stumbled over the body yet.
There are acres upon acres upon acres of woods, water, and random structures in the immediate area. Lauren could literally have been dumped somewhere in the woods out in the open or in an abandoned shed and for some reason God just hasn't thought it time for us to find her yet.

I guess if you think about how tiny a body is (especially Lauren's) and how big the world is it makes sense.

On another note, I am just no longer believing she walked away from CR/JR's complex. Not sure where exactly to go from there because accepting that premise opens up a can of worms of who knew, why, how, and where.

O/T, good luck writing!

And I agree with what you said about how easy it is to "get lucky" even if you (killer) aren't particularly brilliant, organized, or meticulous. I think that one of the reasons I enjoy crime dramas (procedurals) so much is that they let me escape to an imaginary world where it is very hard for a criminal to get so lucky.

IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #27

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