Psychological Markers

Hi Droopy, SmoothOperator, Nugzter,

as a matter of fact, there are three kinds of serial killers, who dismember their victims (and sometimes, in rare cases one SK can belong to all three of them:

a.) dismembering bodies as forensic counter measure. Robert Berdella would be for the most part in this category, or also Jeffrey Dahmer. Joel Rifkin comes to mind too.

b.) dismembering bodies to keep some parts as trophy or for ritualistic purposes. In those cases, it's often the heads, that are kept while the rest will appear somewhere else or is just disposed. Ted Bundy drove the heads of his victims up to 120 miles around, after he dropped already the rest of the body. Jeffrey Dahmer built an altar. Maybe the most mysterious case was London Torso II, a contemporary of Jack the Ripper.

c.) dismembering bodies to use parts of it for staging. The above mentioned London Torso II got his name because he spread body parts in significant places to get attention. But a special significance in those cases has the staging of the torsos. Usually, they are put in a place, where they can't be missed (for example right in the beat of a police constable or on top of a pile of wood in Jessica Taylor's case).

The c.) category is usually a highly organized, high end IQ perpetrator with a double diagnosis of psychopathic behavior including narcissism and some kind of mission (the mission statement is usually the staged torso). So what we have in the case of Jessica Taylor is exactly this staged torso with the destroyed but not removed tattoo. The reason to cut that tattoo to slices wasn't to remove it, but to make a statement, to destroy some symbolic that disgusted him.

Peter Brendt said:

... The reason to cut that tattoo to slices wasn't to remove it, but to make a statement, to destroy some symbolic that disgusted him.

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<rsbm>

So not only disgusted by prostitutes, but by tattoos as well ... things that are perceived/judged by the perp to be immoral and anti-establishment?

sillybilly said:

<rsbm>

So not only disgusted by prostitutes, but by tattoos as well ... things that are perceived/judged by the perp to be immoral and anti-establishment?

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It's a bit hard to say for me right now because I didn't look too much in the old Manorville details. But my first guess would be rather a narrowing of the field. Not protstitutes in general, but a certain kind of prostitute, maybe with a certain behavior beyond just being a prostitute. The tattoo probably has a direct connection to this. Slicing a tattoo that way is basically like overkill against a symbolism.

When Jessica was busted for prostitution in the DC area, the officer who arrested her stated in one of the Newsday articles that Remy (the tattoo said "Remy's Angel") was an acquaintance of Jessica's. Perhaps the killer knew Remy, or knew about her relationship with Remy (whatever that happened to be)?

It's also possible that the killer kept her head and hands as a trophy, but perhaps his life circumstances changed? Maybe he had someone move in with him, and he was afraid that person would discover his trophy? Maybe he started killing again, and wanted to put the head and hands out there as a way to taunt police?

It's kind of sad that Jessica's family have never spoken out in any of these reports that have emerged since her body parts were found. I read that she was estranged from them at the time of her death, but unless they're afraid to be out in the public eye, you would think they'd be out in the media like the rest of the families, demanding justice.

sillybilly said:

<rsbm>

So not only disgusted by prostitutes, but by tattoos as well ... things that are perceived/judged by the perp to be immoral and anti-establishment?

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IF the killer was/is on some kind of "mission" punishing, in his views, sinfull woman, based on biblical belifs, this might be of significance:

Leviticus 19:28
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

28 "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD."

AS far as I remember ALL victims in GB4 and AC4 had several tattoos each. How many of the other Gilgo/Jones Beach & Manorville victims who had tattoos, I dont know, but obvious Jessica Taylor did have tattoo.
Shannan Gilber did too (though I doubt she was a victim of the same killer as the LI4 and/or the AC4)


The LISK killer seem to have an interest in tattooes;

When the LISK called LI victim Melissa Barthelemy's boyfriend/pimp, Johnny Terry, the killer told Terry that he knew about Terry's tattooes:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...island-serial-killer-victims-secret-life.html

Around the same time, Terry said he began to get his own taunting phone calls. His calls were from a "white guy," he said.
"He was threatening me," recalled Terry. "He said, you like to do some crazy stuff with Melissa, I know where you be at. Most of the time he seemed to be drunk. He knew who I was. He knew I had tattoos on my back. Maybe he felt [Melissa] was doing something he didn't like."
Terry said the anonymous caller called him more than 30 times over a period of eight months. He said he reported the calls to the cops. Months later, Terry said, he was approached by the police again, but this time not as a suspect. They wanted to know about the john on Long Island. They asked if he could describe the house and if he could pick it out if he was taken there. He said he could.
"They already knew about the guy in Long Island," he said. "I said if they come to get me I would go. They didn't come."

(Lot's of great info on Melissa in this newsreport, NOTE there is 2 pages and the link added is page 2)

marie-chantal said:

When Jessica was busted for prostitution in the DC area, the officer who arrested her stated in one of the Newsday articles that Remy (the tattoo said "Remy's Angel") was an acquaintance of Jessica's. Perhaps the killer knew Remy, or knew about her relationship with Remy (whatever that happened to be)?

It's also possible that the killer kept her head and hands as a trophy, but perhaps his life circumstances changed? Maybe he had someone move in with him, and he was afraid that person would discover his trophy? Maybe he started killing again, and wanted to put the head and hands out there as a way to taunt police?

It's kind of sad that Jessica's family have never spoken out in any of these reports that have emerged since her body parts were found. I read that she was estranged from them at the time of her death, but unless they're afraid to be out in the public eye, you would think they'd be out in the media like the rest of the families, demanding justice.

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I've always had a funny feeling that slicing up the "Remmy's Angel" tattoo was an awfully personal thing to do. If he was trying to make the victim unidentifiable, you'd think he'd do a better job of it. Whatever his reason, he was obviously making a statement.

One of the AC victims, Molly Jean Dilts, had tatts .. a red/black bulldog and heart with a Playboy bunny inside. She also had a tattoo near her navel that ultimately proved to say "Molly". Before she was identified however, LE had said it could be Yolly, Volly or Molly. Am just wondering if possibly that tattoo had been mutiliated to some degree, preventing them from knowing for sure what it read.

I'm not convinced decomp alone would have obscured Molly's tattoo. Molly was last seen late October or early November 2007. She was a friend of Kim Raffo who was seen in the late night/early morning hours one day in November and found the next day, with the 3 other victims including Molly.

Sorry, I know this thread relates to the AC victims, but am posting it as it relates to the discussion re tattoos. Here's an excellent article on Molly's background:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07035/759320-85.stm

sillybilly said:

One of the AC victims, Molly Jean Dilts, had tatts .. a red/black bulldog and heart with a Playboy bunny inside. She also had a tattoo near her navel that ultimately proved to say "Molly". Before she was identified however, LE had said it could be Yolly, Volly or Molly. Am just wondering if possibly that tattoo had been mutiliated to some degree, preventing them from knowing for sure what it read.

I'm not convinced decomp alone would have obscured Molly's tattoo. Molly was last seen late October or early November 2007. She was a friend of Kim Raffo who was seen in the late night/early morning hours one day in November and found the next day, with the 3 other victims including Molly.

Sorry, I know this thread relates to the AC victims, but am posting it as it relates to the discussion re tattoos. Here's an excellent article on Molly's background:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07035/759320-85.stm

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Molly had a young child, if I recall correctly. If that tattoo was near her navel, then it's possible that it could have been stretched out due to pregnancy. I've never been pregnant, and I don't have any tattoos, but does anyone know what pregnancy would do to a tattoo (or weight gain in the area of the tattoo)?

I believe that Maureen had a tattoo. I thought I had seen one on her in one of her photos (maybe on her chest, shoulder, or arm?). I thought that I had read about Amber having tattoos as well.

marie-chantal said:

When Jessica was busted for prostitution in the DC area, the officer who arrested her stated in one of the Newsday articles that Remy (the tattoo said "Remy's Angel") was an acquaintance of Jessica's. Perhaps the killer knew Remy, or knew about her relationship with Remy (whatever that happened to be)?

It's also possible that the killer kept her head and hands as a trophy, but perhaps his life circumstances changed? Maybe he had someone move in with him, and he was afraid that person would discover his trophy? Maybe he started killing again, and wanted to put the head and hands out there as a way to taunt police?

It's kind of sad that Jessica's family have never spoken out in any of these reports that have emerged since her body parts were found. I read that she was estranged from them at the time of her death, but unless they're afraid to be out in the public eye, you would think they'd be out in the media like the rest of the families, demanding justice.

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Something about that tattoo set him off, so it would be worth to look into that Remy character. Some degree of psychopathic behavior is not unknown in pimps (not saying all pimps are psychopaths, but for the common psychopath/sadist101 pimp may appears as an interesting career alternative to serial killer).

And as far as it comes to the family of Jessica Taylor, families have sometimes complex dynamics. I can imagine, the shame of having a drug addicted daughter prostituting herself isn't make them any more inclined to go public. Especially not, if they feel, after Jessica was murdered, that in hindsight, they did wrong to her or abandoned her with her troubles.

Theforeigner said:

IF the killer was/is on some kind of "mission" punishing, in his views, sinfull woman, based on biblical belifs, this might be of significance:

Leviticus 19:28
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

28 "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD."

Click to expand...

Not all kinds of mission driven SKs are religious motivated. In fact, religious motivated ones are not even the majority of mission-driven SKs, mor common are racial motivated variants like Billy Glaze. However, not every dismemberer is a mission-driven SK in the first place. More often, it's just sexual sadist/psychopath with some urge to draw attention. Putting Jessica Taylor's torso on that wood pile had a lot from screaming to look at him and what he can do. So in normal life, he probably don't get the attention, he thinks, he deserves. And to make it clear, I talk here Manorville, who, in my opinion, is not identically with LISK2.

Theforeigner said:

AS far as I remember ALL victims in GB4 and AC4 had several tattoos each. How many of the other Gilgo/Jones Beach & Manorville victims who had tattoos, I dont know, but obvious Jessica Taylor did have tattoo.
Shannan Gilber did too (though I doubt she was a victim of the same killer as the LI4 and/or the AC4)

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Talkin about tattooos and cutting one to slices on a dead body are two different things. However, I agree, Manorvile, Atlantic City and LISK2 are three different guys:

- LISK2: Dropping the bodies along the road, allowing drive-by revisits, otherwise, no sign of staging or remorse.

- Atlantic City: Staging, head east, bodies laid out face down. The victims were socks but no shoes. This is consistent with the traditions of beyond death curse and funeral rites in certain Muslim sects (I think here especicially Sufis).

- Manorville: Dismemberer with wide spread of body parts, extensive keeping behavior over years, pronounced torso staging behavior while other body parts are dropped off the road where they couldn't be found easy.

Three different established and incompatible signatures. Not one, npot two, but three guys (which is pretty logic considering that SKs all the time cross each other's paths)

Theforeigner said:

The LISK killer seem to have an interest in tattooes;

When the LISK called LI victim Melissa Barthelemy's boyfriend/pimp, Johnny Terry, the killer told Terry that he knew about Terry's tattooes:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...island-serial-killer-victims-secret-life.html

Around the same time, Terry said he began to get his own taunting phone calls. His calls were from a "white guy," he said.
"He was threatening me," recalled Terry. "He said, you like to do some crazy stuff with Melissa, I know where you be at. Most of the time he seemed to be drunk. He knew who I was. He knew I had tattoos on my back. Maybe he felt [Melissa] was doing something he didn't like."
Terry said the anonymous caller called him more than 30 times over a period of eight months. He said he reported the calls to the cops. Months later, Terry said, he was approached by the police again, but this time not as a suspect. They wanted to know about the john on Long Island. They asked if he could describe the house and if he could pick it out if he was taken there. He said he could.
"They already knew about the guy in Long Island," he said. "I said if they come to get me I would go. They didn't come."

(Lot's of great info on Melissa in this newsreport, NOTE there is 2 pages and the link added is page 2)

Click to expand...

Well, yes, LISK2 used here the tattoos, which were not so easy visible as prove, he had Melissa. But this isn't so much interest in the tattoos themselves but the possibilities to prove what he said. If he would have the same interest in tattoos as Manorville, and if those tattoos would tap in the same symbolism, he would made them a subject in itself in those calls.

sillybilly said:

One of the AC victims, Molly Jean Dilts, had tatts .. a red/black bulldog and heart with a Playboy bunny inside. She also had a tattoo near her navel that ultimately proved to say "Molly". Before she was identified however, LE had said it could be Yolly, Volly or Molly. Am just wondering if possibly that tattoo had been mutiliated to some degree, preventing them from knowing for sure what it read.

Click to expand...

The AC victims were found in shallow water. And with gaining and losing weight over years, especially a tattoo around the navel can distort too. There are more possibilities. But if the tattoo was mutilated, nothing of it would readable IMO.

I wonder if the perp keeps his hair cut very, very, short - so short that it cannot be grabbed, pulled, tugged etc. while he is committing his crimes? Or, could his head be completely shaved?

Might he even have bald spots from where his hair was pulled out so hard it can no longer grow?

Could he be an obsessive skin exfoliator - really scrub his skin - so as to not leave any DNA on victims or at crime scenes? Might he also do this because he has obsessive compulsive issues?

Dwntwnslim said:

I wonder if the perp keeps his hair cut very, very, short - so short that it cannot be grabbed, pulled, tugged etc. while he is committing his crimes? Or, could his head be completely shaved?

Might he even have bald spots from where his hair was pulled out so hard it can no longer grow?

Could he be an obsessive skin exfoliator - really scrub his skin - so as to not leave any DNA on victims or at crime scenes? Might he also do this because he has obsessive compulsive issues?

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I doubt it. Personally, I think, LISK2 give them a chance to fight back or pull hair out. If my original profile is correct (I am not allowed to post it here because it includes also ethnicity), he would be a blitz-attacker, maybe after luring them in a spot of weakness.

Peter Brendt said:

The AC victims were found in shallow water. And with gaining and losing weight over years, especially a tattoo around the navel can distort too. There are more possibilities. But if the tattoo was mutilated, nothing of it would readable IMO.

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<bbm>

Not necessarily true Peter ... Jessica's tatt was extensively mutilitated and was ultimately reconstructed and discernible as Remys Angel ... could be in Molly's case, they were able to reconstruct, but only to a point.

I'm thinking along the lines of the killer being very religious. The removal of one arm to the killer "the arm of God" The leg, follow the path of God. Facing east has been debated as possibly having a religious aspect.

Perhaps the killer partakes in prostitutes then has remorse, and try's to cleanse himself by killing them. In his mind he blames the prostitute for leading him astray. In other words afterwards he thinks they are the devil, he kills them, offers up body parts to God as a way to save their souls.

A sick person without a doubt but he is also very smart and organized.

He could also be killing his Mother who was a prostitute we've all heard this before.

I'm thinking this person could be a traveling type person...perhaps with trade show ie..guns, police equipment, and military equipment.

Does anyone have the photo of JT's post mortem 'Remy's Angel' tat? Much thanks!

waltzingmatilda said:

Does anyone have the photo of JT's post mortem 'Remy's Angel' tat? Much thanks!

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Maybe someone else can locate a better source, but in the meantime, first pic at:

[ame="http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=%2B%22jessica+taylor%22+%2B%22remys+angel%22&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=953l7385l0l7871l32l26l0l0l0l0l196l3531l6.20l26l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1280&bih=608&wrapid=tlif132596811653310&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=_qoIT_7oH8KqiAKouoGfCQ#q=%2B%22jessica+taylor%22+%2B%22remy%27s+angel%22&um=1&hl=en&sa=X&tbm=isch&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=e1d9b3b878893ac2&biw=508&bih=241"]+"jessica taylor" +"remys angel" - Google Search[/ame]


For some reason, if you click the link, the pic won't load, but if you do a CTL+ a few times on the google images page, should bring it up a bit.

sillybilly said:

<bbm>

Not necessarily true Peter ... Jessica's tatt was extensively mutilitated and was ultimately reconstructed and discernible as Remys Angel ... could be in Molly's case, they were able to reconstruct, but only to a point.

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The reason is probably more, that tattoos on a body laying water can be really deteriorate while sliced tattoos on a relative dry body (speaking outside now), can be puzzled together. And a partial M is harder to recognize than an O (not so many letters with an upper round shape in the alphabet), an L (as sson as you see distance to the next character or a low line, you have it). The hard ones are only the M and the Y in the end.

relay said:

It has been reported that a 48 year old male drifter was with JB the night that Shannan was last seen. I understand that it was reported that per the drifter's mother he is back in Georgia. It is fairly common for snowbirds aka possible weather driven drifter spend the colder months down south in FL, NC, SC, or Georgia while summering in Long Island.

Since it seems that the 4gb were all last seen in the summer or warmer months, and so far none were last seen in colder months I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea to research more about the unnamed drifter. Where in GA might he be? Have any young women, particularly prostitutes gone missing during the colder months from wherever in GA he might have lived?

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Very excellent theory IMO. I had not heard of this drifter before.

There was a rumor that the drifter, a man named Lenny, is living in JB"s house. Another rumor was the drifter's initials are PA. At one point Mari Gilbert's facebook page said the drifter is a deadend, that she knows who he is and he has been cleared. Hope it is okay to post this information. If not, please remove. For someone interested in "the drifter", it might be a place to start.