Gabriel Johnson - Elizabeth's 45 pages of letters

BeanE said:

"I am innocent and really the real "victim" in this case."

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Sounds like Casey Anthony.

:banghead:

Wow - kudos to those who got through that mess. I myself couldn't do it -- I must not have the attention span. Her self-absortion bored me after about 5 minutes (I, I, I, me, me, me). Everyone else is just garbage.

Like someone said upthread - I'm just glad to see her so miserable!

Mel

I notice that there are several quotes from Victor Hugo in Elizabeth's letters. One of my favorite movies is The Story of Adele H (Francois Truffaut). It's about Victor Hugo's youngest daughter Adele and her descent into madness. Like EJ, she lost a family member by drowning (her older sister) and was rejected by the man she was in love with. She spent most of her life in an insane asylum where she wrote letters and kept a journal.

OT I guess. Sometimes this case makes my mind wander.

reading through these....two things surprised me. first, I am actually on the fence now as to what she's done with gabriel. I was sure from the beginning she'd killed him and right now I am not so sure...it's the way she talks about gabriel when she does talk about him....I remind myself that OCA talked similarly of caylee in her jailhouse letters and it didnt mean a thing - of course, there is reason to believe gabriel was given away rather than murdered in this case....so I am on the fence now for the first time.

the second thing that surprised me is that I have some sympathy for EJ that I never had for OCA or other similar cases. I think EJ is extremely mentally ill. some of it is for show but most of it I think is true illness. this is not to say that I think she is incapable of helping her defense, she's clearly refusing rather than unable, although a more sympathetic person than I would say she is refusing because she is unable...but I dont think that's the case.

It seems she really emotionally engaged with Salame and I do believe she purged her soul and spilled her guts to him. Her own letters detail how frightened she became afterwards when her attorneys convinced her she had just damaged her "case" and how betrayed she felt. She even alludes to how good looking and desirable he was, how his physical mannerisms towards her were, in her own mind, like 'boyfriend-girlfriend'. Somehow, he really knew how to work her to get her to talk and it worked. I believe Salame may be the only living person besides EJ that knows what really happened.

Her constant insistence at sending her silly trivial whining letters directly to the judge is laughably a textbook narcissistic move. She makes it clear it is to get the MAXIMUM attention because the judge is then required to log it and share it around and EJ thinks the media craves her junky little whining notes.

The best thing I can see coming out of all these letters is that she conveys in them that her worst fear and dread is being in psychiatric lockup and that is EXACTLY where these very letters put her. She clearly loathes the thought of facing the world from a sane perspective, is very attached to her 2-year-oldish fixation of herself as the center of the universe, and speaks quite often about 'conquering' people. Oh yeah, EJ, you're quite the conquering thing, caged like a rat with no freedoms at all.

I gained an interesting view of her childhood from her own eyes in her writings. She says her mother adored her and thought she could do no wrong ever and defended her (took her side) no matter WHAT. I guess this tells us how to successfully breed a self-righteous sense of entitlement and possibly impair a child for life?

2goldfish said:

reading through these....two things surprised me. first, I am actually on the fence now as to what she's done with gabriel. I was sure from the beginning she'd killed him and right now I am not so sure...it's the way she talks about gabriel when she does talk about him....I remind myself that OCA talked similarly of caylee in her jailhouse letters and it didnt mean a thing - of course, there is reason to believe gabriel was given away rather than murdered in this case....so I am on the fence now for the first time.

the second thing that surprised me is that I have some sympathy for EJ that I never had for OCA or other similar cases. I think EJ is extremely mentally ill. some of it is for show but most of it I think is true illness. this is not to say that I think she is incapable of helping her defense, she's clearly refusing rather than unable, although a more sympathetic person than I would say she is refusing because she is unable...but I dont think that's the case.

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I tend to agree with you, although I have not been following this case very closely. I recall an interview she gave very early on in the case where she indicated that she hated the father because he was very controlling. I remember thinking that she had a great fear of the father getting custody and being controlling towards the child, as he had been towards her. My impression was that she would do anything to protect her child from what she perceived as the terrible fate of being with the father.

If she is mentally ill and knows that she is mentally ill and would not be a good parent, and fears for her son being with his father, then what options does she have? In her mind, she may have looked for some way to give up her child in order to protect him. Is this "crazy" or "vindictive" or the ultimate act of love? I don't know. I recall a family story about my great-great grandmother who was a teenage girl when her family got on a boat to immigrate to America. When standing on line to board the boat, a woman asked her to hold her baby for a few minutes. She started to comply, when her mother stopped her and refused to let her hold the child. It was because desperate women would give their child to a stranger and then leave, hoping that they would take the child to America were it would grow up having a better life. Perhaps EJ, in her skewed perspective, gave the child to someone in an underground organization, because she, too, wanted her child to be "rescued" and have a better life.

I have no doubt that she has some mental and/or emotional issues. I doubt that the child's father is abusive, but she perceives him as such. Perhaps he is and perhaps he isn't. The right way would have been to go through the courts for custody or for her to have gotten treatment or to find a mentor who would help her through parenting. She is too immature to have taken the correct action, but still feared for her child. What does a woman in her condition do in this situation? She does the things the wrong way, but will never reveal who she sees as the "protector" of her child. JMO

I can't imagine having anything to do with this little piece of work. I do think she should probably be handled by people who have been teenaged girls, however.

Howdy everyone!! Been a long time since I have been on here! I am home sick and watching the trial. Are there archive videos of the trial? Thanks!

saba said:

I notice that there are several quotes from Victor Hugo in Elizabeth's letters. One of my favorite movies is The Story of Adele H (Francois Truffaut). It's about Victor Hugo's youngest daughter Adele and her descent into madness. Like EJ, she lost a family member by drowning (her older sister) and was rejected by the man she was in love with. She spent most of her life in an insane asylum where she wrote letters and kept a journal.

OT I guess. Sometimes this case makes my mind wander.

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Not at all OT...I think that's a really interesting angle to bring up that I wouldn't have thought of. We know she was a good student, she probably thinks she's smarter than everyone else so throw in some literary/historic references and thinks it'll fly right over people's heads. It's an "I'm so much smarter than all of you" aspect of her personality. Kudos for the observation.

OneLove said:

I gained an interesting view of her childhood from her own eyes in her writings. She says her mother adored her and thought she could do no wrong ever and defended her (took her side) no matter WHAT. I guess this tells us how to successfully breed a self-righteous sense of entitlement and possibly impair a child for life?

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Yet...she ended up in foster care as neither parent was capable of getting past their own needs (drugs and alcohol) to serve hers. She learned or inherited this narcissism, and also learned how easy it is so discard people with no emotion early in life. And if you start off life in survival mode all the time, your brain is going to develop to react that way and you are going to stay in it whether you need to or not. I know this firsthand from having a narcissistic mother who grew up in extreme poverty with a neglectful mother herself. There's a reflex/instinct to save oneself at all costs in any situation that can't be easily overcome.

She is such a fascinating case, I just want to study her.

I was just thinking, I wonder if she followed the Casey Anthony trial and knows that because of that verdict a jury is a) much less likely to convict without a body b) she can tell a million different stories and still get away with it and c) if he's found dead and the remains don't reveal the manner of death, the jury won't convict on 1st degree murder or she can say it was an accident. I think it would be interesting to find out if she spoke to anyone about Casey Anthony and followed her blueprint so to speak.

Big difference is G was last seen with EJ in her care. So if a body was found, and showed a death date of around the time EJ was last seen with him, I have no doubt she would be found guilty because of her admission. Now, i do not believe he is deceased and there are so many people looking for him that it is unlikely he will not be found.

As for CAsey Anthony....She is living in her own prison and I think where detective messed up was not figuring out where that heart sticker was purchased and by who. THat would have linked sick Casey ANthony to the body. Also, the Duck tape. Ends match up. CAsey is living in her own prison and that is fine with me. SHe can't even hardly be seen because of the amount of people who are pissed she got off. She will never be able to live a normal life. So for that, I am okay with her not being incarcerated because then taxpayers don't have to pay for her nasty self.

future criminologist said:

Not at all OT...I think that's a really interesting angle to bring up that I wouldn't have thought of. We know she was a good student, she probably thinks she's smarter than everyone else so throw in some literary/historic references and thinks it'll fly right over people's heads. It's an "I'm so much smarter than all of you" aspect of her personality. Kudos for the observation.

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Well so far she has been, I mean we're no closer to finding Gabriel today than we were two and a half years ago. I don't think he's dead, I think he's very much alive, either hidden away by friends of Tammi or friends of Elizabeth, or perhaps in an adoptive family, although I have serious doubts that he has been adopted, as I can't imagine a family not coming forward if they are aware of the circumstances surrounding their child's adoption.

Interesting though that she chose to quote Victor Hugo...

À Villequier

Alas! turning an envious eye towards the past,
unconsolable by anything on earth,
I keep looking at that moment of my life
when I saw her open her wings and fly away!

I will see that instant until I die,
that instant—too much for tears!
when I cried out: "The child that I had just now--
what! I don't have her any more!"

yes her letters were hard to read with all the rambling, but i made it through them. i am trying to catch up on details from this case before the trial starts. i watched all of TS trial livestream from michigan and plan to do the same for EJ.

she never mentions anyone looking for the people who have Gabriel. i think she has convinced herself that she gave him away and that is that. she really killed him. IMO

she mixes the small truths with big lies. she loved leading TS and JS on about adoption, and loved hanging Gabriel over LM's head/heart. i think she lied in about 80% of her writings but may believe she is telling her "true story."

she has issues with every single relationship in her life. i take that back because i really don't know anything about her TWIN brother. being a twin, you would think she would talk a bit more about her brother in her ramblings, but then again i have no info on him.

i really think that if someone really had Gabriel, they would of come forward by now because of the high profile of this story. Gabriel would of been identified by someone by know if he was living with a family anywhere in the USA. JMO

future criminologist said:

Yet...she ended up in foster care as neither parent was capable of getting past their own needs (drugs and alcohol) to serve hers. She learned or inherited this narcissism, and also learned how easy it is so discard people with no emotion early in life. And if you start off life in survival mode all the time, your brain is going to develop to react that way and you are going to stay in it whether you need to or not. I know this firsthand from having a narcissistic mother who grew up in extreme poverty with a neglectful mother herself. There's a reflex/instinct to save oneself at all costs in any situation that can't be easily overcome.

She is such a fascinating case, I just want to study her.

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Thanks for that excellent depiction of what makes a NPD and BPD'd person tick. It cuts to the chase, describes perfectly in so few words and much better than most books in their entirety.

Your description brings back my deepest sympathy and deep regret for all children left wanting. It's just so hard to maintain that tolerance and understanding over the long term when they become adults and trample the rights of others in their quest for their own sense of security.

Are there any folks out there with good tips on how to keep such a person in one's life without wearing down and becoming disdainful? I'm in personal need of that information.

The way she overuses apostrophes really annoys me. Elizabeth -They show possesion. They aren't needed to make the plural form of "perfectionist," "control freak," etc.

She also uses some big words (that she misspells).

At least Casey Anthony had better handwriting and grammar. That's about all I can say. And yeah, I'm being snarky. Sorry.

OneLove said:

Thanks for that excellent depiction of what makes a NPD and BPD'd person tick. It cuts to the chase, describes perfectly in so few words and much better than most books in their entirety.

Your description brings back my deepest sympathy and deep regret for all children left wanting. It's just so hard to maintain that tolerance and understanding over the long term when they become adults and trample the rights of others in their quest for their own sense of security.

Are there any folks out there with good tips on how to keep such a person in one's life without wearing down and becoming disdainful? I'm in personal need of that information.

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I have always found the materials of Dr. Sam Vaknin (a narcissist himself) to be fascinating. For me, his theoretical framework has gone a long way toward allowing a better understanding of how the narcissistic mind ticks. He does offer some suggestions regarding how to live with a narcissist, but I think the bottom line is generally that they can't be cured or significantly changed... so it's the person who wants to (or has to) live with one that has to adapt.


http://samvak.tripod.com/

BeanE said:

I see no signs whatever of mental illness. Incredible self absorption. Complete lack of caring for anyone else. But no hallucinations or anything. Completely oriented to where she is, what's going on around her, and has an excellent understanding of the legal processes going on.

The only thing I see that interferes with her ability to assist in her defense is her intentional choice not to cooperate with her defense - the people who are trying to assist her. That's not mental illness. That's a plain and simple choice she's making. They're going above and beyond to try to help her to protect her rights. She's choosing to thwart their efforts. She says over and over and over she knows she shouldn't be writing to the judge.

I wonder if all the psychiatrists got to see these letters.

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(I know I'm responding over a year later but with the trial going on, I'm rereading this thread)

mental illness, no ... personality disorder, yes. Her & tammi together = two huge personality disorders & a disaster waiting to happen

2goldfish said:

reading through these....two things surprised me. first, I am actually on the fence now as to what she's done with gabriel. I was sure from the beginning she'd killed him and right now I am not so sure...it's the way she talks about gabriel when she does talk about him....I remind myself that OCA talked similarly of caylee in her jailhouse letters and it didnt mean a thing - of course, there is reason to believe gabriel was given away rather than murdered in this case....so I am on the fence now for the first time.

the second thing that surprised me is that I have some sympathy for EJ that I never had for OCA or other similar cases. I think EJ is extremely mentally ill. some of it is for show but most of it I think is true illness. this is not to say that I think she is incapable of helping her defense, she's clearly refusing rather than unable, although a more sympathetic person than I would say she is refusing because she is unable...but I dont think that's the case.

Click to expand...

First, I can't believe I missed these letters (as well as the trial)! I followed this case from the beginning and now miss this?

Second, IMO, if Gabriel was alive, there would have been some sign, in phone or text or computer records, of communication between EJ or TPS and some person or persons looking for a child. This was a murder investigation. If there was something to be found, LE would have found it. But, there was nothing.

I think the letters show a profoundly disturbed and intelligent sociopath. She is frightening. She told Logan she killed Gabriel because he was with other girls. I think that's exactly what this angry nut did.

OneLove said:

It seems she really emotionally engaged with Salame and I do believe she purged her soul and spilled her guts to him. Her own letters detail how frightened she became afterwards when her attorneys convinced her she had just damaged her "case" and how betrayed she felt. She even alludes to how good looking and desirable he was, how his physical mannerisms towards her were, in her own mind, like 'boyfriend-girlfriend'. Somehow, he really knew how to work her to get her to talk and it worked. I believe Salame may be the only living person besides EJ that knows what really happened.

Her constant insistence at sending her silly trivial whining letters directly to the judge is laughably a textbook narcissistic move. She makes it clear it is to get the MAXIMUM attention because the judge is then required to log it and share it around and EJ thinks the media craves her junky little whining notes.

The best thing I can see coming out of all these letters is that she conveys in them that her worst fear and dread is being in psychiatric lockup and that is EXACTLY where these very letters put her. She clearly loathes the thought of facing the world from a sane perspective, is very attached to her 2-year-oldish fixation of herself as the center of the universe, and speaks quite often about 'conquering' people. Oh yeah, EJ, you're quite the conquering thing, caged like a rat with no freedoms at all.

I gained an interesting view of her childhood from her own eyes in her writings. She says her mother adored her and thought she could do no wrong ever and defended her (took her side) no matter WHAT. I guess this tells us how to successfully breed a self-righteous sense of entitlement and possibly impair a child for life?

Click to expand...

Bingo. I caught the same thing. Spoil the you know what out of your child (and then subject them to a precarious existence) and this is what can happen.

OneLove said:

Thanks for that excellent depiction of what makes a NPD and BPD'd person tick. It cuts to the chase, describes perfectly in so few words and much better than most books in their entirety.

Your description brings back my deepest sympathy and deep regret for all children left wanting. It's just so hard to maintain that tolerance and understanding over the long term when they become adults and trample the rights of others in their quest for their own sense of security.

Are there any folks out there with good tips on how to keep such a person in one's life without wearing down and becoming disdainful? I'm in personal need of that information.

Click to expand...

It's not about narcissism but I think it would work for it as well. It's called Understanding the Borderline Mother. It gives clear instructions to adults as to how to deal with a personality disordered relation. Essentially, you treat them like children and set firm boundaries.

Gitana-

I was just rereading her letters myself. Elizabeth's writings about her mother don't really track reality. Her mother was an alcoholic, in trouble with the law, and in fact used the alias "Jones" as EJ did in SA. I think her foster care placements in Boston were while her mother was still alive because she moved to AZ after her death. IMO, Elizabeth has tried to deal with her mother's alcohol issues by re-characterizing neglect as indulgent affection. I can imagine how confused and conflicted she was about her role as a mother when Gabriel was born.

btw- EJ's mother drowned when Elizabeth was 12 and she used to lie about that. Instead of telling a true (and very sad) story, she told people her mother had been gunned down on the street in front of her and her twin.


moo