Found Alive CA - Sherri Papini, 34, Redding, 2 November 2016 - #23

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Hope4More said:
( I ) didn't say that LE believes her story. (I) suggested the opposite, actually.

What LE has said- and I believe it's most likely true- is that they have no reason to disbelieve that SP was taken against her will, kept against her will, and harmed.

My guess is that they don't believe SP is clueless about who was involved and why she was taken- which would explain a great deal about how they've approached their investigation (the details of which for obvious reasons
have not been made public) and what they have communicated to the public.
Click to expand...


GITANA- edited my post for you (sprinkled in pronouns). ;)
 
Bravo said:
I was wondering the same re: was she ever allowed blindfold off. If she was allowed to shower and the head smashing toilet incident tells me she likely wasn't then. After that length of time and being blindfolded most if not all of the time a persons other senses kick in to high gear.
Click to expand...

Not caught up today but on an interview I saw LE said that SP was not always kept in the dark. I think he even said she had seen the abductors at times. The impression I got was he was sayings he had seen them unmasked as well. This was an interview issued around the time that the sketches were released and I thought it odd that the sketches included bandana's. Clearly I interpreted the interview wrong? I think... LOL! So, now I am wondering when she was able to see, were they covered and when they were uncovered was her head covered? It's after KP talks and LE gives a description of the women he then says "She was held against her will and she was isolated and at times her head was covered"

http://abcnews.go.com/US/sherri-pap...erious-disappearance-search/story?id=43930023
 
RickshawFan said:
I'm saying it depends on the person. It depends on what needs to be said at that particular moment.

You're asking about how people with PTSD talk. The answer I stated says that PTSD victims are just like any other human. They say what needs to be said in the moment. That's what communicating is all about.

Sometimes this means they talk (sign, scream, verbalize or whatever) a lot, sometimes a little. Sometimes they talk about trauma, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they have to be professional, sometimes they're telling stories to their kids, sometimes they have private moments with their life partners. Sometimes they remember, sometimes they can't remember anything. Get it?

Asking how folks with PTSD communicate is like asking how people with red hair communicate. Same way as everyone else. Get it?
Click to expand...

I could not agree with this post more.
It is completely an individual thing as far as talking about it goes, and in my experience, even varies within each person at different times.

I would think that she does remember things, but maybe cannot speak them. Even to those closest to her or even to herself. She may be pushing all of this experience she had (if true) right out of her thoughts.
Maybe she never will tell her whole story to anyone, maybe she will at some point, who knows?
Trust me, a year isn't long enough to expect someone to be 'over' a truly traumatic experience.
All my opinion, of course.
 
Midge Montana said:
I could not agree with this post more.
It is completely an individual thing as far as talking about it goes, and in my experience, even varies within each person at different times.

I would think that she does remember things, but maybe cannot speak them. Even to those closest to her or even to herself. She may be pushing all of this experience she had (if true) right out of her thoughts.
Maybe she never will tell her whole story to anyone, maybe she will at some point, who knows?
Trust me, a year isn't long enough to expect someone to be 'over' a truly traumatic experience.
All my opinion, of course.
Click to expand...

I can speak a little from my own experience with PTSD. Even after many years I have trouble articulating it. I try but never feel like I can get it out enough, put it behind me, etc. I hardly know how to explain how it has affected my life. But it never goes away. And when there is an emotional trigger it's like it's all there again. And I wasn't kidnapped and beaten! If SP is telling the truth I can only imagine what all she goes thru!
 
RANCH said:
Interesting and thanks for the reply.

I'm not so interested in if it's a good idea for a victim of PTSD to talk, I'm wondering more on what kind of behavior can be expected of a victim in regards to them discussing their trauma in detail. These victim's may communicate differently after suffering trauma. Or maybe they communicate just the same as before. I'm not sure.
Click to expand...

I have PTSD after being in a relationship turned into forcible confinement. Age 15-20. The abuse was intense and there was also torture and many people ended up charged. It's been nearly 13 years and I am still on a ton of medications as a result, I still have horrible flashbacks and nightmares without medications. If I talk about things I am often very disassociative, as if I am seeing it like I would a movie rather then a genuine memory. I have experienced it all, from suicide attempts, self-harm, violent outbursts (generally towards myself but verbally aggressive) and so on. When I was only a year after escaping, I was literally locked away in my house only leaving to go to therapy, I had dogs for protection and lived on 300 acres very well hidden. Some details I remembered perfectly, like colors, smells, times of year, etc, but other things like actual traumatic events are what have come back while I sleep.

IMO
I don't find the way SP seems to be hiding or anything like that in the least bit abnormal from the perspective of a victim.

I read and I think 'what on earth?' and then I realize my own story was a "what on earth?" for most people, including LE, at that time.

Her communication would be affected IMO by the shame she feels in her own skin. She may not have been sexually assaulted, but there simply isn't a part of the brain that knows the pain from rape from the pain from other torturous acts. It all registers the same.

She has been marked (defiled) in being branded. We don't know if the hose clamps left scars on her. She remembers the pain and the fear, just like any victim would. If she is like me, she likely still wakes up and can feel what I call "phantom chains". I often feel them on my wrists, ankles and even waist (despite rarely being bound around the waist).

Those things act JUST like rape (at least in my PTSD head) and are often more shameful to speak about then other things. Every time you retell your story, especially when being questioned, you feel like you are re-living it, a victim all over again as it plays in your head like a movie.

I know there are plenty of people who don't believe her and that's definitely up to you. I do believe her likely for the very reasons you don't -the story is simply insane and seems to lack sense. The world I have escaped from does give me a very logical reason for what may have caused this for her.

ALL of this is MOO based on my experience as a survivor. If the story does turn out to be a lie, then I have no clue how she is thinking, and as a survivor would be very insulted by someone making this sort of thing up, as crying wolf happens so often that it has made the justice system be rather unkind to those of us who really were hurt.

Again, JMO and I hope it helps someone understand the survivor mindset a bit!
 
RANCH said:
I posted the link to the unreliability of eyewitness accounts not to show a direct correlation to this case but to express some of my feelings about how Sherri may have said (or not said) certain things that don't seem likely to some.

The more I look at this case the more uncertainties I see. Is this because Sherri is lying about much of this case or it it from other factors. I'm just not sure.

The last thing I'm trying to do is to change anyone's mind about the trustfulness of Sherri Papini. To each his own.
Click to expand...

Got it. Makes sense.

Hope4More said:
GITANA- edited my post for you (sprinkled in pronouns). ;)
Click to expand...

Ha ha! Thanks.

Midge Montana said:
I could not agree with this post more.
It is completely an individual thing as far as talking about it goes, and in my experience, even varies within each person at different times.

I would think that she does remember things, but maybe cannot speak them. Even to those closest to her or even to herself. She may be pushing all of this experience she had (if true) right out of her thoughts.
Maybe she never will tell her whole story to anyone, maybe she will at some point, who knows?
Trust me, a year isn't long enough to expect someone to be 'over' a truly traumatic experience.
All my opinion, of course.
Click to expand...

You don't have to be over a traumatic experience to discuss it with investigators though.
 
kkdj said:
I can speak a little from my own experience with PTSD. Even after many years I have trouble articulating it. I try but never feel like I can get it out enough, put it behind me, etc. I hardly know how to explain how it has affected my life. But it never goes away. And when there is an emotional trigger it's like it's all there again. And I wasn't kidnapped and beaten! If SP is telling the truth I can only imagine what all she goes thru!
Click to expand...

MarisaS1985 said:
I have PTSD after being in a relationship turned into forcible confinement. Age 15-20. The abuse was intense and there was also torture and many people ended up charged. It's been nearly 13 years and I am still on a ton of medications as a result, I still have horrible flashbacks and nightmares without medications. If I talk about things I am often very disassociative, as if I am seeing it like I would a movie rather then a genuine memory. I have experienced it all, from suicide attempts, self-harm, violent outbursts (generally towards myself but verbally aggressive) and so on. When I was only a year after escaping, I was literally locked away in my house only leaving to go to therapy, I had dogs for protection and lived on 300 acres very well hidden. Some details I remembered perfectly, like colors, smells, times of year, etc, but other things like actual traumatic events are what have come back while I sleep.

IMO
I don't find the way SP seems to be hiding or anything like that in the least bit abnormal from the perspective of a victim.

I read and I think 'what on earth?' and then I realize my own story was a "what on earth?" for most people, including LE, at that time.

Her communication would be affected IMO by the shame she feels in her own skin. She may not have been sexually assaulted, but there simply isn't a part of the brain that knows the pain from rape from the pain from other torturous acts. It all registers the same.

She has been marked (defiled) in being branded. We don't know if the hose clamps left scars on her. She remembers the pain and the fear, just like any victim would. If she is like me, she likely still wakes up and can feel what I call "phantom chains". I often feel them on my wrists, ankles and even waist (despite rarely being bound around the waist).

Those things act JUST like rape (at least in my PTSD head) and are often more shameful to speak about then other things. Every time you retell your story, especially when being questioned, you feel like you are re-living it, a victim all over again as it plays in your head like a movie.

I know there are plenty of people who don't believe her and that's definitely up to you. I do believe her likely for the very reasons you don't -the story is simply insane and seems to lack sense. The world I have escaped from does give me a very logical reason for what may have caused this for her.

ALL of this is MOO based on my experience as a survivor. If the story does turn out to be a lie, then I have no clue how she is thinking, and as a survivor would be very insulted by someone making this sort of thing up, as crying wolf happens so often that it has made the justice system be rather unkind to those of us who really were hurt.

Again, JMO and I hope it helps someone understand the survivor mindset a bit!
Click to expand...

Thank you both for that. It does explain a bit. Do either of you feel you would not be able to articulate details of a traumatic event to LE, right after rescue, due to either emotional pain or lack of memory? Thank you! And hugs to you both.
 
MarisaS1985 said:
I have PTSD after being in a relationship turned into forcible confinement. Age 15-20. The abuse was intense and there was also torture and many people ended up charged. It's been nearly 13 years and I am still on a ton of medications as a result, I still have horrible flashbacks and nightmares without medications. If I talk about things I am often very disassociative, as if I am seeing it like I would a movie rather then a genuine memory. I have experienced it all, from suicide attempts, self-harm, violent outbursts (generally towards myself but verbally aggressive) and so on. When I was only a year after escaping, I was literally locked away in my house only leaving to go to therapy, I had dogs for protection and lived on 300 acres very well hidden. Some details I remembered perfectly, like colors, smells, times of year, etc, but other things like actual traumatic events are what have come back while I sleep.

IMO
I don't find the way SP seems to be hiding or anything like that in the least bit abnormal from the perspective of a victim.

I read and I think 'what on earth?' and then I realize my own story was a "what on earth?" for most people, including LE, at that time.

Her communication would be affected IMO by the shame she feels in her own skin. She may not have been sexually assaulted, but there simply isn't a part of the brain that knows the pain from rape from the pain from other torturous acts. It all registers the same.

She has been marked (defiled) in being branded. We don't know if the hose clamps left scars on her. She remembers the pain and the fear, just like any victim would. If she is like me, she likely still wakes up and can feel what I call "phantom chains". I often feel them on my wrists, ankles and even waist (despite rarely being bound around the waist).

Those things act JUST like rape (at least in my PTSD head) and are often more shameful to speak about then other things. Every time you retell your story, especially when being questioned, you feel like you are re-living it, a victim all over again as it plays in your head like a movie.

I know there are plenty of people who don't believe her and that's definitely up to you. I do believe her likely for the very reasons you don't -the story is simply insane and seems to lack sense. The world I have escaped from does give me a very logical reason for what may have caused this for her.

ALL of this is MOO based on my experience as a survivor. If the story does turn out to be a lie, then I have no clue how she is thinking, and as a survivor would be very insulted by someone making this sort of thing up, as crying wolf happens so often that it has made the justice system be rather unkind to those of us who really were hurt.

Again, JMO and I hope it helps someone understand the survivor mindset a bit!
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for sharing your personal experiences with us. It helps me understand things when I can read these kind of posts.

I also feel a kind of kinship with posters from Ontario Canada. My dad grew up in Windsor. I cherish the time we went to his old home town and visited the house he lived in, the school he went to and the factory my grandfather worked in during World War II.
 
gitana1 said:
Thank you both for that. It does explain a bit. Do either of you feel you would not be able to articulate details of a traumatic event, right after rescue, due to either emotional pain or lack of memory? Thank you! And hugs to you both.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of things all these years later that I have never been able to say or even write down, not even to LE.

When I escaped I don't remember how I got to the police, I think the hospital called them. (That's how fast things can get blurred). I do remember that the way they interviewed me at the police station was the same as they would any suspect. It was a white room, two chairs, a small desk, and cameras aimed at me.

I tried to explain things but they kept wanting me to start at the beginning, but that's not where my head was. So it took forever because they kept making me go back and trying to nail down dates and such. I was bouncing all over the place. I gave 3 statements and they each averaged 14 hours, and that was within the first week. I was getting flustered and felt like they didn't believe me because of how they would keep asking things, though I realize now that they were trying to get the timeline right. I never cried or showed any emotion. I was detached from it all, which was my survival method.

I *think* I gave good statements. It resulted in 4 people being arrested. However, one person who wasn't my captor, got 2 years, another had his charges dropped, another had his charges stayed and my captor only got 90 days time served despite 14+ counts of aggravated sexual assault, forcible confinement over a period of 5 years, attempted murder, and several other things. He had well over 20 charges in total and was able to plead out to the 90 days time served (180 days in total but here every day before sentencing counts as 2). He is never allowed to contact me and the police were shocked and even apologized that he didn't go away for life. The system simply failed. For me, this has given me a LOT of survivors guilt. I have said many times that if I had let him kill me he wouldn't be hurting anyone else now. I've questioned whether or not my inability to keep everything straight in the statements is why they didn't go to trial. At the time, I thought I was making sense. I honestly have no clue though if I did. I am also sure if I had not been detached and had cried and been distraught and emotional in that room that it likely would have gone a different way.
 
RANCH said:
Thank you so much for sharing your personal experiences with us. It helps me understand things when I can read these kind of posts.

I also feel a kind of kinship with posters from Ontario Canada. My dad grew up in Windsor. I cherish the time we went to his old home town and visited the house he lived in, the school he went to and the factory my grandfather worked in during World War II.
Click to expand...

I am actually closer to the Manitoba border, but I LOVE Canada. The history is amazing, because it's really not THAT old and yet there has been such extreme change!!

No problem in sharing my experience. Hopefully it helps people see that a traumatized mind happens very quickly. I've heard people who are in car crashes say similar things, like it was all slow motion but happened so fast, they didn't know why they were soaked but were told after that they had went and grabbed a drink a mile before the crash. People often assume one must lose consciousness or have a head injury, but you really don't. Our minds just file things away until it thinks we are ready to deal, regardless of a time crunch :(
 
vmmking said:
But she probably had gained most of her weight back by then.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

It's a long way to go from 87 pounds to full-flesh. And she's not especially petite.
 
Midge Montana said:
I could not agree with this post more.
It is completely an individual thing as far as talking about it goes, and in my experience, even varies within each person at different times.

I would think that she does remember things, but maybe cannot speak them. Even to those closest to her or even to herself. She may be pushing all of this experience she had (if true) right out of her thoughts.
Maybe she never will tell her whole story to anyone, maybe she will at some point, who knows?
Trust me, a year isn't long enough to expect someone to be 'over' a truly traumatic experience.
All my opinion, of course.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Midge Montana. It feels as though this thread is getting way off topic. As you convey, one person's experience is not going to be like another's, so there's no chance here for insights into SP. There's no map for PTSD reactions.

Really, the question that got this whole "how do PTSD victims talk" theme going is not a valid question because it's based on an assumption that all PTSD victims must react alike. That's a non-starter assumption, 'cos they don't.

Please let's get this thread back on course! Back to SP!
 
gitana1 said:
Thank you both for that. It does explain a bit. Do either of you feel you would not be able to articulate details of a traumatic event to LE, right after rescue, due to either emotional pain or lack of memory? Thank you! And hugs to you both.
Click to expand...

I don't know. I never told the police. But I can tell you, the emotional pain remains and there is no lack of memory that I know of at this time. The anxiety is indescribable at times when an emotional trigger happens. And there is nowhere to get away from it. I didn't seek help for years and only when I did was I given a name for recurring thoughts, fear and anxiety......PTSD. Knowing it has a name helps.
When I heard about the very loud TV at night at the Papini's I immediately thought......Sherri is having a meltdown, a breakdown and I hope she can pull out of it. That I related to. Not being able to hold it in, yet can't get it out. Caught in ones own skin, nowhere to go, no way to get away.
 
RickshawFan said:
I have already answered that question. We're talking about human beings, correct? Human communication?

Communication is an individual thing and depends on context. That's true for any human communication. Why would communication by a victim of PTSD be any different?
Click to expand...

Why would communication by a victim of PTSD be any different?
Click to expand...

You may never understand how very offensive these words are to a survivor.
 
Interesting that KP is SP's orator. What is going through his mind? Was this abduction staged to do this for money and yet a year later they are still in the limelight? (not their idea but hopefully some stage the case will go cold) Did SP really run away and KP had no idea what she went through? Were KP and SP on the rocks and SP wanted to make him realise how much she meant to him? (lame I know)

Where was she hiding out? That is the ten billion dollar question? Where could she go to be completely cut off from the world? Has anyone got any ideas from previous cases where people have gone to escape their circumstances. The podcast suggested Jennifer Wilbanks took a greyhound to NM. What if SP deliberately hitched a ride out of town? We have no idea if any of her clothes were missing --- and what items she could have bought or swapped with her online sales store.....

Jaycee Dugard and ESmart knew their life depended on getting a good description of their surroundings and being aware of things around them - SP apparently has strong survival instincts - so why so cagey?
 
MarisaS1985 said:
There are plenty of things all these years later that I have never been able to say or even write down, not even to LE.

When I escaped I don't remember how I got to the police, I think the hospital called them. (That's how fast things can get blurred). I do remember that the way they interviewed me at the police station was the same as they would any suspect. It was a white room, two chairs, a small desk, and cameras aimed at me.

I tried to explain things but they kept wanting me to start at the beginning, but that's not where my head was. So it took forever because they kept making me go back and trying to nail down dates and such. I was bouncing all over the place. I gave 3 statements and they each averaged 14 hours, and that was within the first week. I was getting flustered and felt like they didn't believe me because of how they would keep asking things, though I realize now that they were trying to get the timeline right. I never cried or showed any emotion. I was detached from it all, which was my survival method.

I *think* I gave good statements. It resulted in 4 people being arrested. However, one person who wasn't my captor, got 2 years, another had his charges dropped, another had his charges stayed and my captor only got 90 days time served despite 14+ counts of aggravated sexual assault, forcible confinement over a period of 5 years, attempted murder, and several other things. He had well over 20 charges in total and was able to plead out to the 90 days time served (180 days in total but here every day before sentencing counts as 2). He is never allowed to contact me and the police were shocked and even apologized that he didn't go away for life. The system simply failed. For me, this has given me a LOT of survivors guilt. I have said many times that if I had let him kill me he wouldn't be hurting anyone else now. I've questioned whether or not my inability to keep everything straight in the statements is why they didn't go to trial. At the time, I thought I was making sense. I honestly have no clue though if I did. I am also sure if I had not been detached and had cried and been distraught and emotional in that room that it likely would have gone a different way.
Click to expand...

I'm so sorry this happened to you. Thank you for sharing with us.
 
RickshawFan said:
It's a long way to go from 87 pounds to full-flesh. And she's not especially petite.
Click to expand...
Her Missing Posters reported her being 5'4" and 100lbs. She would have had to gain only 13 pounds in 7 weeks to be back to where she was.
 
Rallibella said:
This has to be the most confusing case ever.
Click to expand...

Seriously. It is.

MarisaS1985 said:
There are plenty of things all these years later that I have never been able to say or even write down, not even to LE.

When I escaped I don't remember how I got to the police, I think the hospital called them. (That's how fast things can get blurred). I do remember that the way they interviewed me at the police station was the same as they would any suspect. It was a white room, two chairs, a small desk, and cameras aimed at me.

I tried to explain things but they kept wanting me to start at the beginning, but that's not where my head was. So it took forever because they kept making me go back and trying to nail down dates and such. I was bouncing all over the place. I gave 3 statements and they each averaged 14 hours, and that was within the first week. I was getting flustered and felt like they didn't believe me because of how they would keep asking things, though I realize now that they were trying to get the timeline right. I never cried or showed any emotion. I was detached from it all, which was my survival method.

I *think* I gave good statements. It resulted in 4 people being arrested. However, one person who wasn't my captor, got 2 years, another had his charges dropped, another had his charges stayed and my captor only got 90 days time served despite 14+ counts of aggravated sexual assault, forcible confinement over a period of 5 years, attempted murder, and several other things. He had well over 20 charges in total and was able to plead out to the 90 days time served (180 days in total but here every day before sentencing counts as 2). He is never allowed to contact me and the police were shocked and even apologized that he didn't go away for life. The system simply failed. For me, this has given me a LOT of survivors guilt. I have said many times that if I had let him kill me he wouldn't be hurting anyone else now. I've questioned whether or not my inability to keep everything straight in the statements is why they didn't go to trial. At the time, I thought I was making sense. I honestly have no clue though if I did. I am also sure if I had not been detached and had cried and been distraught and emotional in that room that it likely would have gone a different way.
Click to expand...

Wow. I feel like you're a hero. Amazing. Gives me a different perspective for sure.

kkdj said:
I don't know. I never told the police. But I can tell you, the emotional pain remains and there is no lack of memory that I know of at this time. The anxiety is indescribable at times when an emotional trigger happens. And there is nowhere to get away from it. I didn't seek help for years and only when I did was I given a name for recurring thoughts, fear and anxiety......PTSD. Knowing it has a name helps.
When I heard about the very loud TV at night at the Papini's I immediately thought......Sherri is having a meltdown, a breakdown and I hope she can pull out of it. That I related to. Not being able to hold it in, yet can't get it out. Caught in ones own skin, nowhere to go, no way to get away.
Click to expand...

My gosh. You're painting a vivid and profound picture for me.
 
gitana1 said:
Thank you both for that. It does explain a bit. Do either of you feel you would not be able to articulate details of a traumatic event to LE, right after rescue, due to either emotional pain or lack of memory? Thank you! And hugs to you both.
Click to expand...
Here's what I can say based on my experience with something similar. I'd have to guess if I could have communicated to LE because I didn't. I chose not to report. Part of it was because I didn't trust LE to believe me about what happened and why. Part of it was also that I didn't want it known in the community for the same reasons. People can be skeptical of women's reporting in particular. I instinctively knew that even at 17.

I also tend to suspect that what happened to her was payback, maybe because that's basically what happened to me (although my payback was for having done something good, not bad).

I tend to lean towards believing she was held against her will, but that she doesn't want to discuss it because she doesn't want the circumstances to be known.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
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