17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #27

[Isabelle]

Watching Dateline: Real Life Mysteries and learned that photos taken with an IPhone have GPS coordinates!

 

[Isabelle]

I have a son that same age as Trayvon, and he is 6'3", 215 lbs. He's a big guy. If Trayvone was 6", 160 lbs., that's not that big. I have a 14 year old who weighs 160 at 5'9".

I picture Trayvon as tall and lanky.

JMO

We'll have to wait on the autopsy, if it is ever released!

 

[m00c0w]

I get the impression that a lot of people believe the Miranda warning has to be given immediately (or at least shortly) after arrest. This is not true at all. You can arrest someone without ever Mirandizing them.

 

[m00c0w]

Watching Dateline: Real Life Mysteries and learned that photos taken with an IPhone have GPS coordinates!

Most smartphones do, if the location feature is enabled (iPhones have to have the feature enabled, as well). This is why you should be careful about posting pictures you take with your phone online.

 

[elementary]

Considering that no one seems to have any accurate information on that (people seem to get a kick out of making him taller and heavier), and I haven't seen anything from his family giving an accurate account of his stats, I simply go with what's on the incident report, which is 6'0", and 160lbs.

And you know this, how? Sounds inflammatory to me.

 

[RANCH]

Thanks! I saw that and was sure it was right but at some point there was an incorrect listing of him at 5'10". He definitely looks about 5'8" compared to the men standing around him. Also, MO'M is very tall.

Do we have any info on TM? I don't think I've seen an accurate report on him.

I haven't seen any source that could give us a accurate listing of Trayvons height and weight.

I would hope that the Seminole County would give accurate listings of height and weight of inmates.

All I can say about the listed size of GZ is that I don't consider 5'8" and 185lbs as being a large man. When I was 28yrs old I was 5'7" tall and around 175 lbs. Only slightly smaller than GZ. I never considered myself as being a large man. JMO.

 

[Adrienne37]

See you guys at 8:30 in the morning. I'm getting here early so I can get a front row seat. I'll be there in spirit with Trayvon's wonderful family in hopes that Zimmerman will not be able to make bond and will get to sit his rear end in jail until there is a trial. I'm praying very hard tonight as I have been for the last couple of weeks.


~jmo~

 

[jaded cat]

I haven't seen any source that could give us a accurate listing of Trayvons height and weight.

I would hope that the Seminole County would give accurate listings of height and weight of inmates.

All I can say about the listed size of GZ is that I don't consider 5'8" and 185lbs as being a large man. When I was 28yrs old I was 5'7" tall and around 175 lbs. Only slightly smaller than GZ. I never considered myself as being a large man. JMO.

GZ didn't weigh 185 at the time of the shooting. At least according to the police report. I think all this about either ones weight or height is a lot of silliness, I'd just like to nail it down.

 

[gitana1]

What would be his motive?

The motive of the officer to embellish the police report would be to justify the profiling that likely caused some of the officers involved and Wolfinger and Chief Lee to decide Trayvon was probably just some black who, if he didn't commit a crime that day, had in the past or would have in the future, so no charges. Zimmerman just got rid of one more bad apple.

Looks like Francis fits right in with the shuck and jive being laid out in this deal. When Anderson Cooper asked him, on 3/21, about GZ and his gun, Francis said he was SHOCKED!:

But on 4/9, when telling about GZ and the 2/2 incident at his house, Francis sang a different tune to JVM:

Why does this not surprise me?

Wow. He is such a big liar.

and you don't know about it because they are juveniles. Their records are private. They are not identified by name. And when they turn 18 the records are expunged.

When I was doing consulting, I needed and got a security clearance to see criminal histories in the state's database. (I was looking to see who had re-offended afer release to compare the rehabilitation program group to the control group). I was surprised to learn that children as young as 7 had been arrested. People often think that juvenile records are kept separate and sealed but they aren't, at least not in my state. I don't have the link right now but I did read where the Department of Justice had confirmed that Trayvon had no criminal record, not even of arrests.

The juvenile justice department, not the public and not the media, stated Trayvon had no record. I know some really, really want to believe Trayvon was a with a record. But, he just did not have one. That the public can't access most juvenile records does not change that. Clearly, the juvenile justice department can.

Would anything Trayvon said to his girlfriend via phone the night of the incident be allowed in court or is that hearsay?

Technically, it is all hearsay and would not be allowed in. However, I could see an argument that it should be let in to show TM's "state of mind."

Hey Hornsby, what about the declarant unavailable exception?

Home > Laws > The 2011 Florida Statutes > Title VII > Chapter 90 > Section 804
2011 Florida Statutes
Title VII
EVIDENCE Chapter 90
90.804 Hearsay exceptions; declarant unavailable.—(1) DEFINITION OF UNAVAILABILITY.—“Unavailability as a witness” means that the declaranta) Is exempted by a ruling of a court on the ground of privilege from testifying concerning the subject matter of the declarant’s statement;
(b) Persists in refusing to testify concerning the subject matter of the declarant’s statement despite an order of the court to do so;
(c) Has suffered a lack of memory of the subject matter of his or her statement so as to destroy the declarant’s effectiveness as a witness during the trial;
(d) Is unable to be present or to testify at the hearing because of death or because of then-existing physical or mental illness or infirmity; or
(e) Is absent from the hearing, and the proponent of a statement has been unable to procure the declarant’s attendance or testimony by process or other reasonable means.

http://www.flsenate.gov/laws/statutes/2011/90.804

That's what I was citing as how Trayvon's statements to his girlfriend come in.

And yet, according to the link you just quoted, what Zimmerman experienced would have been classified as a temporary detention, and not an arrest.

That is exactly what happened to Zimmerman - in fact, it was even referred to specifically as "investigative detention" by Sanford PD. The line for me is, if Zimmerman had decided at any point that he no longer wanted to cooperate and wanted to leave, could they have held him against his will? The language of the statement from Sanford's PD chief, IMO, indicates no.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

So once Zimmerman invoked SYG, which it appears he did immediately at the scene of the crime, it seems they didn't feel they had much if any authority to do anything with regard to detaining him against his will. Whether the investigators believed him or not (and it doesn't appear they did), at that point it looks like they were just getting the story straight and filling out paperwork. I think Zimmerman, feeling nice and safe once had wrapped himself in SYG, was perfectly happy to tell his side of the story, wherever they wanted him to tell it.

Yes, and according to my links, it also describes an arrest. An "arrest" does not always have to be a formal one, where there are charges that follow and the officer states, "You are under arrest."

IMO, investigative detention, again, is closer to what happened to casey anthony when she was placed in cuffs and in a squad car by police for several minutes. Yet even then, there were serious arguments in court that what happened to her constituted an arrest and thus any statements she made after, were inadmissible since she was not given the Miranda warning. Most of the attorneys on board were worried those arguments would hold up.

Investigative detention usually applies to an on scene detention. The cops don't know what's happening right away and they need to secure the area and keep everyone safe until they can investigate and determine what happened. So, someone, or more than one, is placed in handcuffs.

Let me just say this, if Zimmerman made any statements to the police that night after being placed in handcuffs, that are damaging to his self-defense case, and Miranda warnings were not given, his attorney would argue he was arrested and any statements should be inadmissible. Although I don't do criminal law, I know I would be making that argument for my client under similar circumstances. It's really law school 101.

Again, when casey anthony went voluntarily to Universal Studios with LE, went into a room with them and answered their interrogation questions, no handcuffs, no locked door, the defense argued that THAT was an arrest. Far less restrictive than what happened with Zimmerman.

Here's what Hornsby had to say at the time:

And as has been discussed at WebSleuths by AZLawyer, Judge Perry’s decision will hinge on the following four factor analysis used in Florida and outlined in Ramirez v. State, 739 So. 2d 568 (Fla. 1999):

1. The manner in which police summon the suspect for questioning;
2. The purpose, place, and manner of the interrogation;
3. The extent to which the suspect is confronted with evidence of his or her guilt; and
4. Whether the suspect is informed that he or she is free to leave the place of questioning..

The reason this analysis is so important is that if it is determined that a reasonable person in the defendant’s position (here, Casey Anthony) would have believed herself to be in custody, law enforcement would have been required to administer proper Miranda warnings at the point a reasonable person would have felt them self in custody. And any statements made after that point, without the benefit of Miranda, would have been illegally obtained and will therefore be suppressed.

http://blog.richardhornsby.com/2011/03/a-favorable-appellate-case-for-the-state/

I suppose it's really a semantics issue. Apparently, Zimmerman was not formerly arrested for homicide. He certainly was not charged. But he was "in custody". It was more than an investigative detention. In custody is an arrest when it comes to constitutional rights.

Of course, Zimmerman is not arguing his rights were violated, so it is not that important in that sense. It is important to me, though, because unlike a handcuffing on the side of the road, this kind of "arrest" would be more likely to be surrounded by a more thorough investigation. Like pictures being taken of any injuries, crime scene photos, etc. At least I hope so.

In the beginning of this case, it appeared they did a very cursory investigation before deciding to let Zimmerman off the hook. Which was outrageous. Now I am getting the sense that they did more. And that is a relief because it means we will have more information with which to get to the truth.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I get the impression that a lot of people believe the Miranda warning has to be given immediately (or at least shortly) after arrest. This is not true at all. You can arrest someone without ever Mirandizing them.

But if a conversation starts, or questioning starts and they have not mirandized that person... they can't use that in court, correct?

 

[gitana1]

I haven't seen any source that could give us a accurate listing of Trayvons height and weight.

I would hope that the Seminole County would give accurate listings of height and weight of inmates.

All I can say about the listed size of GZ is that I don't consider 5'8" and 185lbs as being a large man. When I was 28yrs old I was 5'7" tall and around 175 lbs. Only slightly smaller than GZ. I never considered myself as being a large man. JMO.

One of my brothers is 5' 8 1/2" and 140 pounds (he had life-threatening asthma as a child). THAT is a small man. Zimmerman outweighed Trayvon by quite a bit. I assume he was even heavier than his booking stats too, since he likely has been under serious stress since the killing.

Trayvon and Zimmerman would be in two different weight classes if Trayvon was 160 and Zimmerman 185 at the time of the shooting, regardless of height.

 

[gitana1]

But if a conversation starts, or questioning starts and they have not mirandized that person... they can't use that in court, correct?

That's right. If a person is in custody when they give a statement, Miranda excludes such statements from evidence if the warning was not given.

 

[RANCH]

GZ didn't weigh 185 at the time of the shooting. At least according to the police report. I think all this about either ones weight or height is a lot of silliness, I'd just like to nail it down.

The police report has GZ slightly taller than the booking document at 5' 9" tall with no weight listed.

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

 

[m00c0w]

But if a conversation starts, or questioning starts and they have not mirandized that person... they can't use that in court, correct?

If the statements are voluntarily made by the person, and there's not a "two-step" interrogation, it should generally be admissible. Custodial interrogations are what's restricted. If the police don't interrogate, there's no need to mirandize. It's actually a common tactic, because people believe what they say can't be used in court unless they've been read their rights... So they say things they shouldn't say. Which are then allowed in court under the party-opponent exemption.

(Reason 2 you don't talk to police)

 

[nomoresorrow]

Sorry if I missed it but does anyone know what the timeframe is for going before the judge for the Stand Your Ground motion? TIA ~

 

[RANCH]

One of my brothers is 5' 8 1/2" and 140 pounds (he had life-threatening asthma as a child). THAT is a small man. Zimmerman outweighed Trayvon by quite a bit. I assume he was even heavier than his booking stats too, since he likely has been under serious stress since the killing.

Trayvon and Zimmerman would be in two different weight classes if Trayvon was 160 and Zimmerman 185 at the time of the shooting, regardless of height.

I don't believe that George Zimmerman is a small man either. I don't believe he's a large man. Medium? Maybe that would be a more accurate description. I'm not sure how tall or how much Trayvon weighed so I can't say what his weight class would be.

 

[Karmady]

The juvenile justice department, not the public and not the media, stated Trayvon had no record. I know some really, really want to believe Trayvon was a with a record. But, he just did not have one. That the public can't access most juvenile records does not change that. Clearly, the juvenile justice department can.

respectfully, gitana, my response to the OP had nothing to do with Trayvon. My recollection is that the post either stated or assumed that he had no record. Frankly, I don't care if he did or if he didn't. My beef with the "real" Trayvon had to do with the media hype (discussed elsewhere) portraying him to be a cross between an altar boy and an Eagle Scout. In fact, wasn't he just compared to Jesus himself?.

Anyway, the purpose of my post was simply to point out that if the OP was based on an assumption that if such records existed they would have been disclosed in response to a FOIA request, then that would be a potentially inaccurate presumption since most juvenile records are not publicly available under ANY circumstances, including FOIA.

I stand by the point that if any juvenile has the typical juvenile record of a kid who is not a very hard-core criminal already, we would NOT know about it. Whether or not a FOIA request had been made. And having responded to a FOIA/subpoena or 12,000 in my day, as I'm sure you have as well, I am not at all convinced that the DOJ saying there is no record makes it so. I'm 1000% sure what happened was that the FOIA request was made and the DOJ responded that there were no "responsive" records. Meaning ONLY that there are none which are non-exempt from the Sunshine law.

I notice that, in least in the article I read, there is no quote from the DOJ, so the reasonable assumption is that the information was obtained from the response to the FOIA request directly or, more likely, from someone relaying that response to the media. And knowing how the media has handled this case so far, they just decided to say that Trayvon has no juvenile record, rather than showing us the document they are basing that conclusion on. You and I both know what that document looks like and the true meaning of what it says and does not say. The DOJ's response means ONLY that there are no such disclosable records, not that there are none at all. Maybe there are none. But one cannot draw that conclusion from what the DOJ said in response to a FOIA request. jmoo

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Watching the First 48 now, good show :seeya:

I only watch the second 24 hours.:seeya:

 

[lauriej]

Sorry if I missed it but does anyone know what the timeframe is for going before the judge for the Stand Your Ground motion? TIA ~

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...n-martin-murder-case-legal-observers-say?lite

Zimmerman’s testimony would likely take place at an evidentiary hearing, under which the “Stand Your Ground” law allows the defense to ask a judge for immunity from prosecution because it’s a clear case of self-defense.
Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara, has said self-defense will be a strategy in the case.

It could be months before such a hearing takes place, however.

 

[christee]

I only watch the second 24 hours.:seeya:

:yesss:

:floorlaugh: