2 Things that have me wondering

[Solace]

I would think that a person would be depressed if their child had been murdered...I mean, of course...if they didn't have anything to do with it. And speaking from experience, when a person is depressed, they don't care about how they look...that is the very least of their worries.

You just crack me up.

 

[Toltec]

Toltec,

Was she really, chronically sexually abused, and made to particpate in pageants, then whacked on the head, asphyxiated then dumped in wine-cellar where she was further violated!

After all that what makes you think her parents cared very much about her corpse, dont forget JR was ready to flee Boulder early that morning, and they never visited JonBenet in the mortuary either, nice, caring parents?


,

Bad parents, bad parenting...does not make them love their child even less.

 

[Solace]

JMO8778,

Its likely there was a plan to dump JonBenet outdoors, but this should have still meant her having to be redressed in bed-clothes, this aspect of her death is the one for which there has been least speculation since it does not fit into most peoples theories.

Employing kiss principles:
1. John killed JonBenet fabricated some kind of staging.
2. Patsy decided to revise it to what it became.

Speculating:
3. There was an intermediate stage?
4. Alternately
1. Patsy killed JonBenet and fabricated some kind of staging.
2. John decided to revise it to what it became.


.

I know you spoke of this "dumping" theory before and it is, I am sorry, but it is just so out there. There is no way that John and Patsy are going to ever take a chance like that. Not happening!

 

[Solace]

Toltec,

Was she really, chronically sexually abused, and made to particpate in pageants, then whacked on the head, asphyxiated then dumped in wine-cellar where she was further violated!

After all that what makes you think her parents cared very much about her corpse, dont forget JR was ready to flee Boulder early that morning, and they never visited JonBenet in the mortuary either, nice, caring parents?


,

This is a horrific crime and Jon Benet most definitely suffered major pain, but I believe that Patsy and John loved Jon Benet.

We already discussed the mortuary thing. They are going to stay as far away from the police or any other authority as possible. Does not mean Patsy did not love her. I think she did. She just lost it that night and if you watch her interviews, she is rarely without medication, rarely.

Just watching her interview with Detective Haney is irritating. She is just very medicated and it is a chore to have to listen to her bull$%#!

Having said all that, she is in survival mode and she will do what is necessary. But she did kill her daughter. I would bet money on it.

 

[Ames]

[/b]

You just crack me up.

LOL...thanks!

 

[Ames]

This is a horrific crime and Jon Benet most definitely suffered major pain, but I believe that Patsy and John loved Jon Benet.

We already discussed the mortuary thing. They are going to stay as far away from the police or any other authority as possible. Does not mean Patsy did not love her. I think she did. She just lost it that night and if you watch her interviews, she is rarely without medication, rarely.

Just watching her interview with Detective Haney is irritating. She is just very medicated and it is a chore to have to listen to her bull$%#!

Having said all that, she is in survival mode and she will do what is necessary. But she did kill her daughter. I would bet money on it.

Well, count ME in on that bet, too. There is absolutely NO doubt in my mind...that she killed her own daughter in a rage attack...and then preceded with John...to cover it up. Beyond a shadow of a doubt.....

 

[Solace]

Well, count ME in on that bet, too. There is absolutely NO doubt in my mind...that she killed her own daughter in a rage attack...and then preceded with John...to cover it up. Beyond a shadow of a doubt.....

I am so glad you are back!!! See you tomorrow.

 

[Ames]

I am so glad you are back!!! See you tomorrow.

Thank you so much!!! Its good to be back....(I NOW have laryngitis :silenced: ...and can barely talk in a whisper...so, its a good thing that my fingers work, and I don't have to actually TALK on these boards, or else, you wouldn't be able to hear me... )

 

[Solace]

Exactly! There are many things about the Ramsey's that suggest that they really didn't care about their daughter. Not really....she was just a trophy child to them. IMO

I agree with you on that; otherwise they would not have put her in pageants. I think they loved her as much as they are capable of loving her.

 

[rashomon]

Employing kiss principles:
1. John killed JonBenet fabricated some kind of staging.
2. Patsy decided to revise it to what it became.

No way would Patsy have covered up for John if he had killed her precious daughter. In that case, I think Patsy would have killed John.

1. Patsy killed JonBenet and fabricated some kind of staging.
2. John decided to revise it to what it became.

I would agree on #1.
Re # 2 : imo John did not revise anything, but merley did what Pats ytold him to do. He let her run this staging show from start to finish. I don't believe he thought they would get away with it. He probably was in some numb, fatalistic state of mind.

 

[JMO8778]

What if they were both involved in killing her? IF PR did it,then I don't think she went and got JR after she'd done the ligature strangling..most likely she would have went to get him after JB passed out,and she couldn't get her conscious again.
In that scenerio,JR couldn't get her conscious again either,but they resisted taking her to ER or calling for help, on the basis of the sexual abuse being discovered.
SO,if that's what happened,I think they're both guilty of the murder,with the final part of it being the ligature strangling that ended her life once and for all.

 

[UKGuy]

No way would Patsy have covered up for John if he had killed her precious daughter. In that case, I think Patsy would have killed John.


I would agree on #1.
Re # 2 : imo John did not revise anything, but merley did what Pats ytold him to do. He let her run this staging show from start to finish. I don't believe he thought they would get away with it. He probably was in some numb, fatalistic state of mind.

rashomon,
Both parents were involved here, and you do not know the extent of their collabaration, so all this talk of Patsy running the show and telling John how to stage matters, may suit your PDI theory but it has no basis in fact nor is it supported by the forensic evidence. Also your assumption regarding John's state of mind that morning e.g. He probably was in some numb, fatalistic state of mind. does not conform with my perception in how he dealt with the police, and heroically discovered JonBenet's body, not discounting his attempts to flee interstate by plane!

The removal of crucial forensic evidence, the authoring of the ransom note, the relocation of JonBenet's corpse and the staging in the wine-cellar, are not indications to me of a fatalistic state of mind, but of an organised, planned scheme to avoid arrest and any trial, to this end they were successful!

Both parents may have been involved in the death of JonBenet, both parents may have been involved in staging the wine-cellar crime-scene, all this talk of accidents and intruders is for the birds.


.

 

[Solace]

rashomon,
Both parents were involved here, and you do not know the extent of their collabaration, so all this talk of Patsy running the show and telling John how to stage matters, may suit your PDI theory but it has no basis in fact nor is it supported by the forensic evidence. Also your assumption regarding John's state of mind that morning e.g. He probably was in some numb, fatalistic state of mind. does not conform with my perception in how he dealt with the police, and heroically discovered JonBenet's body, not discounting his attempts to flee interstate by plane!

The removal of crucial forensic evidence, the authoring of the ransom note, the relocation of JonBenet's corpse and the staging in the wine-cellar, are not indications to me of a fatalistic state of mind, but of an organised, planned scheme to avoid arrest and any trial, to this end they were successful!

Both parents may have been involved in the death of JonBenet, both parents may have been involved in staging the wine-cellar crime-scene, all this talk of accidents and intruders is for the birds.


.

UK, The Ramseys made many mistakes and they would have been indicted had it not been for Detective Arndt letting them lie all over the body and destroy evidence; had they not let the sister come in take anything she wanted. A three page ransom note was written, the fact that John tried to leave town is symptomatic of somewho is frantic and not thinking clearly at all.

 

[Albert18]

If Patsy is the instigator then the big question is when did John become involved.

My common sense tells me she would have run and gotten John immediately. But the crime scene was such that one or both of them should have easily ended up in jail, only astonishing and unbelievable circumstances kept that from happening.

So how could two intelligent and accomplished people, whose very lives were at stake, put themselves in that situation?

I also believe the effort of the two of them working together is greater than the sum of their parts.

John strikes me as a very intelligent, cool under fire, accomplished individual who knows how to get things done (I wish I had a fourth of his talent in that regard). Would he have bet his life on that crime scene?

I think the answer to that is no.

 

[Ames]

What if they were both involved in killing her? IF PR did it,then I don't think she went and got JR after she'd done the ligature strangling..most likely she would have went to get him after JB passed out,and she couldn't get her conscious again.
In that scenerio,JR couldn't get her conscious again either,but they resisted taking her to ER or calling for help, on the basis of the sexual abuse being discovered.
SO,if that's what happened,I think they're both guilty of the murder,with the final part of it being the ligature strangling that ended her life once and for all.

My theory is, Patsy unintentionally harmed JB to the point of no return, and she knew that it would be really hard to explain that to the doctor's in the ER....some posters say, "well, she could just tell them that JB fell"....Well, Doctors aren't stupid, they can tell by an injury how it happened. There's probably millions of parents that tell the ER doc...that their child fell off of a chair and broke their arm. Doctors go to college to become doctors...they can tell if it was broken by falling off a chair, or from abuse. And I think that Patsy knew this....plus, JB could have been being molested, and Patsy and John were afraid that the dr's would find it out. BUT, think of Patsy's shocked expression, when in one of her interviews, she was told that JB was molested...and Patsy said "How did you know that"? Well, if John and Patsy had of taken JB to the ER, and the molestation had of been found out, why couldn't they have just said that they have no idea how it happened, or who did it. They could have just played stupid. But, as to JB fractured skull, thats just a little bit harder to wiggle out of....IMO...that is the reason that they didn't take her to the ER...and it could be, that her pulse was so faint, that they already thought that she was dead...after the head wound. It wouldn't have looked very good for them, to bring in their "dead" child to the ER, and say that she fell down the stairs or something....because they knew that the ER doctors would be able to see through that lie. They would have x-rayed her and would have seen that huge hole in her skulll, the doctors would have asked a million questions that the Ramsey's would have had to lie their way through.....huh....she tripped outside while skipping, huh, she fell down a whole flight of stairs....huh, we really don't know HOW that huge hole got into her skull. The doctors would have figured it out...and the Ramsey's knew that...thats the reason...IMO...that they didn't take her to the ER.

 

[Ames]

If Patsy is the instigator then the big question is when did John become involved.

My common sense tells me she would have run and gotten John immediately. But the crime scene was such that one or both of them should have easily ended up in jail, only astonishing and unbelievable circumstances kept that from happening.

So how could two intelligent and accomplished people, whose very lives were at stake, put themselves in that situation?

I also believe the effort of the two of them working together is greater than the sum of their parts.

John strikes me as a very intelligent, cool under fire, accomplished individual who knows how to get things done (I wish I had a fourth of his talent in that regard). Would he have bet his life on that crime scene?

I think the answer to that is no.

I think that they were both in a panic, and felt that they had no other choice, but to take that gamble. Either take her to the ER, have them x-ray her and find that huge hole in her skull (Patsy and John of course had no way to know how bad the head wound was....but, I DO believe that Patsy had to have heard the crack, and probably thought that JB was dead), and for sure go to jail....or stage a crime scene and maybe, just MAYBE get away with it...which imo....they did.

 

[JMO8778]

My theory is, Patsy unintentionally harmed JB to the point of no return, and she knew that it would be really hard to explain that to the doctor's in the ER....some posters say, "well, she could just tell them that JB fell"....Well, Doctors aren't stupid, they can tell by an injury how it happened. There's probably millions of parents that tell the ER doc...that their child fell off of a chair and broke their arm. Doctors go to college to become doctors...they can tell if it was broken by falling off a chair, or from abuse. And I think that Patsy knew this....plus, JB could have been being molested, and Patsy and John were afraid that the dr's would find it out. BUT, think of Patsy's shocked expression, when in one of her interviews, she was told that JB was molested...and Patsy said "How did you know that"? Well, if John and Patsy had of taken JB to the ER, and the molestation had of been found out, why couldn't they have just said that they have no idea how it happened, or who did it. They could have just played stupid. But, as to JB fractured skull, thats just a little bit harder to wiggle out of....IMO...that is the reason that they didn't take her to the ER...and it could be, that her pulse was so faint, that they already thought that she was dead...after the head wound. It wouldn't have looked very good for them, to bring in their "dead" child to the ER, and say that she fell down the stairs or something....because they knew that the ER doctors would be able to see through that lie. They would have x-rayed her and would have seen that huge hole in her skulll, the doctors would have asked a million questions that the Ramsey's would have had to lie their way through.....huh....she tripped outside while skipping, huh, she fell down a whole flight of stairs....huh, we really don't know HOW that huge hole got into her skull. The doctors would have figured it out...and the Ramsey's knew that...thats the reason...IMO...that they didn't take her to the ER.

Good thoughts,I should have added the manual strangulation as well,and the abrasions,which being that close to her neck don't ring of someone falling down stairs,etc.I imagine at the time, that red marks as well,may have been around her neck from that.

 

[JMO8778]

I think that they were both in a panic, and felt that they had no other choice, but to take that gamble. Either take her to the ER, have them x-ray her and find that huge hole in her skull (Patsy and John of course had no way to know how bad the head wound was....but, I DO believe that Patsy had to have heard the crack, and probably thought that JB was dead), and for sure go to jail....or stage a crime scene and maybe, just MAYBE get away with it...which imo....they did.

that,or I wonder if one or both actually WANTED her dead?? for whatever reason,if it was PR,possibly several reasons were involved,if JR, then I can only think of one reason.

 

[Albert18]

But nothing about John on the morning of the 26th suggests panic. He could be described as being nervous and someone who is thinking things over, but not in a panic. Patsy, however, is a basket case.

Later in television interviews John is talking about the death of his daughter and yet he has the calmness and confidence of someone being on TV because they are running for the US Senate or have just accomplished something wonderful.

I think Toltec summed it up perfectly with the comment that this is a guy who was presented with a situation and he handled it as he deemed necessary.

I still think people underestimate John. He was an extremely successful businessman and he is somebody who knows how to get things done. I think the major reason this case is sitting unsolved is because of the actions he took after the 911 call and maybe a few actions before that. So in totality, does the crime scene look like the work of him and Patsy over many hours and I think the answer is no.

I'm not saying John had no part in the staging, just that Steve Thomas is probably right in thinking John became involved later.

I think there are two important clues about John's involvement.

The first clue is Patsy made the 911 call. If John really thought there was an intruder and a kidnapping, John makes the call. A guy like him standing on the sidelines while his daughter is in grave danger, no way.

The second clue is John saying this looked like an inside job after bringing Jonbenet's body upstairs. It is also obvious they were going to play up the insider theory to explain what happened. Why then put "foreign faction" in the ransom note? If your life is in danger, why change horses in the middle of the stream? An insider is not a foreign faction. I see no way John would make that switch in strategy so early if he had sat with Patsy and helped write the ransom note.

I repeat again what Toltec said, John was presented with a situation and he handled it. That doesn't mean he created or helped create the situation.

 

[Solace]

But nothing about John on the morning of the 26th suggests panic. He could be described as being nervous and someone who is thinking things over, but not in a panic. Patsy, however, is a basket case.

Later in television interviews John is talking about the death of his daughter and yet he has the calmness and confidence of someone being on TV because they are running for the US Senate or have just accomplished something wonderful.

I think Toltec summed it up perfectly with the comment that this is a guy who was presented with a situation and he handled it as he deemed necessary.

I still think people underestimate John. He was an extremely successful businessman and he is somebody who knows how to get things done. I think the major reason this case is sitting unsolved is because of the actions he took after the 911 call and maybe a few actions before that. So in totality, does the crime scene look like the work of him and Patsy over many hours and I think the answer is no.

I'm not saying John had no part in the staging, just that Steve Thomas is probably right in thinking John became involved later.

I think there are two important clues about John's involvement.

The first clue is Patsy made the 911 call. If John really thought there was an intruder and a kidnapping, John makes the call. A guy like him standing on the sidelines while his daughter is in grave danger, no way.

The second clue is John saying this looked like an inside job after bringing Jonbenet's body upstairs. It is also obvious they were going to play up the insider theory to explain what happened. Why then put "foreign faction" in the ransom note? If your life is in danger, why change horses in the middle of the stream? An insider is not a foreign faction. I see no way John would make that switch in strategy so early if he had sat with Patsy and helped write the ransom note.

I repeat again what Toltec said, John was presented with a situation and he handled it. That doesn't mean he created or helped create the situation.

Not bad Albert.