2008.06.09 vs 2008.06.16 Why the Discrepancy?

[carrie]

To provoke some thought...consider

6/2-6/8 Cindy kept Caylee whilst on vacation...Casey ran free & Cindy prolly felt a little taken advantage of by 6/9. IIRC, Cindy had wanted to take off to Cocoa Beach or Ft. Myers (George parents) the preceeding weekend, but, Alex wasn't doing so well...so Cindy went up to spend Friday PM and Saturday w/ her mom & dad. Casey had to be called home in the wee hours of the morning Saturday, 6/7. So both weekends of Cindy's vacation were less than stellar, carefree, vacation-kinda-weekends.

6/9PM (speculation) Casey wanted Cindy to keep Caylee so Casey would be free to goto the Orange County Clerk's office 6/10 to deal w/ the traffic tickets - George could watch Caylee in the morning, right? right!. The flurry of calls 6/9 afternoon to Cindy suggest Casey wanted to drop Caylee @ Gentiva (again). Since Caylee spent the night @ Ricardo's we can speculate Cindy said, something like 'NFW'...prolly pissed after being taken advantage of the prior week.

Sooooo.....Casey got pissed and and said to herself..."Self, its payback time. Let the games begin!" Casey stopped taking Caylee by G&C's 6/10 except, perhaps one or two nights, (e.g Friday night). Casey had to be called home in the wee hours of the morning again Saturday, 6/14.

Of course after 6/15 we know Cindy didn't see Caylee again...but...per speculation above...this was just a big, escalating pissing contest between she & Casey from Cindy's perspective. This continued to build until all hell broke loose on 7/3 when Casey sent Cindy up to Universal on a wild goose chase and Cindy got home pissed off...enlisted Lee's help to create her MySpace epistle and sent him chasing Casey down.

So...from Cindy's little corner of the world...this hide-the-Caylee contest all started when she 'put her foot down' 6/9 after she'd not gotten the vacation she'd wanted. After seeing Cindy operate for the past several months...I'd say she's not one to let go of a grudge easily...methinks Cindy held onto that slighted feeling of 6/9 and Casey just added insult to injury. So..."6/9" was already a prominent date in Cindy's mind when it came time to start talking 'bout when Caylee "went missing" from her life. And that's a little different definition than the rest of us would be familiar with...from the outside looking in.

I agree w/ this line of thinking. I would just add that only seeing Caylee a couple of nights was a huge change for CA and GA. George has stressed several times in his statements that they (KC and Caylee) had been in their home from day one, since Caylee was born. I can easily see how, as you say, in CA's mind, Caylee was, in effect, missing as of the 9th of June. That's when everything changed and KC started staying away or, perhaps in KC's mind, "moved out." Maybe that's why they the rest of the family agreed with that date at first.

 

[BondJamesBond]

OK...after reviewing phone records I hafta toss out there that 6/16 may not have been as much like 6/9 to George as I had previously thought.

Now know that one minute before George called Casey on her cell @ 3:04PM 6/16 that George called the house (G&C's @ Hopespring). The call to the house was only 17seconds in duration, which happens to match the duration of a call Casey placed to the house later that evening. This suggests to me that it takes 17seconds to listen to the answering machine message @ G&C's (before the tone) to see if anyone is going to pick-up the phone.

Sooooo....the only reason I can think George would call the house (Cindy not off until 5'ish) was if George knew Casey was THERE. Owing to his immediate follow-up call to Casey's cell @ 3:04PM makes the case stronger IMHO.

OK...first...that's a big departure for me. I'd been thinking Casey left G&C's and came back owing to the timing of George's story...even if it was the same as 6/9 I figured Casey woulda been sellin' the same BS 'bout going to work. :bang:

Next. No calls between George & Cindy 6/16. So...George wasn't trying to play peacemaker 'tween the two. Nor was he delivering/relaying any message from Cindy.

Kicker. Cindy appears to have had her cell off (or dead battery) almost the entire day 6/16. Cindy placed one call on 6/16...and that was to Casey. In fact, it was THE call from Cindy's cell that resulted in a vmail waiting message on Casey's phone 5:57PM. Since no incoming call was recorded on Casey's cell phone she may have had it off...or as suggested by others...been in an area affecting her reception.

We're all familiar w/ the George's account of 6/16 via Greta. And we have his earliest handwritten statement when he was going w/ the 6/9 date. IIRC, it was in the FBI interviews when George was getting choked up and said "the last time I heard her voice" was....still telling 6/16 story.

Put me down even more solid as George tellin' us 'bout the events of 6/9 instead of 6/16. Intentional or not...I dunno. I still wanna know what his call to Casey was about @ 3:04PM 6/16....or at least what he's told LE it was about...'cause you know they've spotted this by now and asked George why he called the house...:waitasec:

 

[carrie]

I agree w/ this line of thinking. I would just add that only seeing Caylee a couple of nights was a huge change for CA and GA. George has stressed several times in his statements that they (KC and Caylee) had been in their home from day one, since Caylee was born. I can easily see how, as you say, in CA's mind, Caylee was, in effect, missing as of the 9th of June. That's when everything changed and KC started staying away or, perhaps in KC's mind, "moved out." Maybe that's why they the rest of the family agreed with that date at first.

OK - to play devil's advocate with myself:

In light of the reasoning above and Bond's in post #119 , wouldn't it be fair to say that 6/16 should have stuck out in George's mind even more than all the pre 6/9 days (which likely would have all run together)?

If 6/9 was a major change around the A home, due to KC and Caylee not being there each morning, a huge departure from business as usual, as we've said, then shouldn't 6/16 stick out in his mind (before he knew Caylee was no longer w/ KC i.e. post 911 call) as the one day they were back home after not being around like they normally were?

Don't know of course. Just thinking (anyone smell smoke?) .

 

[AZlawyer]

OK...after reviewing phone records I hafta toss out there that 6/16 may not have been as much like 6/9 to George as I had previously thought.

Now know that one minute before George called Casey on her cell @ 3:04PM 6/16 that George called the house (G&C's @ Hopespring). The call to the house was only 17seconds in duration, which happens to match the duration of a call Casey placed to the house later that evening. This suggests to me that it takes 17seconds to listen to the answering machine message @ G&C's (before the tone) to see if anyone is going to pick-up the phone.

Sooooo....the only reason I can think George would call the house (Cindy not off until 5'ish) was if George knew Casey was THERE. Owing to his immediate follow-up call to Casey's cell @ 3:04PM makes the case stronger IMHO.

OK...first...that's a big departure for me. I'd been thinking Casey left G&C's and came back owing to the timing of George's story...even if it was the same as 6/9 I figured Casey woulda been sellin' the same BS 'bout going to work. :bang:

Next. No calls between George & Cindy 6/16. So...George wasn't trying to play peacemaker 'tween the two. Nor was he delivering/relaying any message from Cindy.

Kicker. Cindy appears to have had her cell off (or dead battery) almost the entire day 6/16. Cindy placed one call on 6/16...and that was to Casey. In fact, it was THE call from Cindy's cell that resulted in a vmail waiting message on Casey's phone 5:57PM. Since no incoming call was recorded on Casey's cell phone she may have had it off...or as suggested by others...been in an area affecting her reception.

We're all familiar w/ the George's account of 6/16 via Greta. And we have his earliest handwritten statement when he was going w/ the 6/9 date. IIRC, it was in the FBI interviews when George was getting choked up and said "the last time I heard her voice" was....still telling 6/16 story.

Put me down even more solid as George tellin' us 'bout the events of 6/9 instead of 6/16. Intentional or not...I dunno. I still wanna know what his call to Casey was about @ 3:04PM 6/16....or at least what he's told LE it was about...'cause you know they've spotted this by now and asked George why he called the house...:waitasec:

Wow, Bond. I think this is huge. You're right...there would be no reason for George to call the house 2 hours after KC & Caylee supposedly left for "work" and the nanny, and then call KC's cell phone. Have you started a thread on the main page about this? I.e., "George's June 16 phone records BOMBSHELL"?

 

[BondJamesBond]

Wow, Bond. I think this is huge. You're right...there would be no reason for George to call the house 2 hours after KC & Caylee supposedly left for "work" and the nanny, and then call KC's cell phone. Have you started a thread on the main page about this? I.e., "George's June 16 phone records BOMBSHELL"?

Hey, AZ. It has kinda rocked my world for the last day or two. Has me questioning some things I had gotten comfortable with over the last few months.

I carried it over to the 6/16 Ping thread since it seemed to fit there as well....and expanded on it a little there. I thought it would be good to simmer on it a few days...then maybe carry it over to the "Theories" thread in the main forum after some sleuthers had a chance to figure out where I may have mistepped in my read on things. Please poke at it and see what you can come up with.

 

[ClockWatcher]

On June 16,2008, the day after Father's Day, cellular activity for Casey Anthony's cellular phone was in the area of her parent's home (Hopespring address) until approximately 1614 hours. The cellular activity indicated movement to the North at 1618 hours, to the West starting at 1625 hours, and to the Northwest at 1757 hours. The cellular activity remained in this area (Semoran Boulevard and Aloma Avenue) until June 17, 2008 at 1418 hours (overnight). See Exhibits E, F and H collectively for related details.

This is detail from Supplemental Report by Agent William E. Moore ( the cell ping master for the MBI) and was linked by IBYounger in the June 17 ping thread:
http://cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/DONE mbi-letters-murphy-monforte.pdf

So I would say that from the above information, Casey was home all day until 4:14 pm. George left for work knowing that she was there.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

*respectfully snipped*

IIRC, CA said in one of her statements that she had spoken to KC throughout that time and exchanged texts w/ her. She said that KC started texting more often, rather than answer the phone, so she could put Cindy off/avoid her, as Cindy kept demanding to see Caylee. Kc would tell/text her that she could see Caylee so and so place and so and so time, then she'd text when it got close to that time and cancel/make excuses as to why it couldn't happen.

So, what I'm saying is, CA was in touch w/ KC, although she did not see her or know where she actually was physically, due to KC's lying, making excuses, and generally avoiding her. So, in effect, KC was missing in Cindy's view. Caylee was missing because KC would not let her see Caylee (or so she thought). JMHO

I think when Cindy said she'd already given her a month, she was referring to the month she'd spent being put off by KC about seeing the baby, or following wild goose chases trying to see her. JMO

Thanks, and yes, I think that's logical and is the way I heard CA explain it. At the beginning, CA stated that her daughter and granddaughter had been missing, the smelly car has been found, etc. CA has softened on what missing means to her as time goes by. There is proof of their communications so we know them to be true. But geesh, after the July 3 incident, they were missing as far as I'm concerned.

That is why I began thinking way outta the box. Like as in if CA was the cause of Caylee's death, she may have written the script herself. I know, I know, but everyone says that one cannot comprehend the capacity of a sociopath's ability to take care of their own arses. Is it impossible? No. Is it probable? No.

 

[BondJamesBond]

BJB,

Recapping in order to aid my understanding - are you suggesting that GA's original statement referred to what he thought he remembered from 6/16 but that he was actually recounting 6/9? (or he was not there 6/16). If so wouldn't the date be wrong but not the recount? In other words, your not saying he purposely told 6/9 rather than 6/16? He would know he was retelling the last time he saw KC leave with Caylee regardless of the date. We only know it was 6/16 because the Mt. Dora pic. surfaced. Maybe HE was telling 6/9? Is that possible?

Heck, do we even know if GA had been around his house since 6/9?
Since at the beginning of the case, everyone assumed the A's were telling the truth because noone had any idea what big webweavers they are.

LE's questioning the family was regarding the last time GA or CA saw both Caylee and KC regardless of the date, so are you suggesting that GA was called back to confirm the date mixup and to retell the same story adding that it had actually taken place on June 16? Like for accuracy - word??? - confirm he was home on June 16?

Choices - GA told what he remembered from the actual date of 6/9 since he had not been at his house since then.

GA told the events that happened 6/16 but said they occurred 6/9 (going along with the wrong date stated by CA)

GA told 6/9 events forgetting a whole week had gone by between that date and Caylee being gone.:waitasec:

GA told 6/16 happenings but said it happened 6/9 to fit the agreed upon date alteration.

AM I on the WRONG thread again?

Bringing this over from the 6/16 ping thread as it seems best to discuss here.

Woe, I think I'm gonna give up trying to get inside George's head well enough to know how this all morphed....and whether or not it was intentionally misleading. I try to give George the benefit of the doubt when possible, but, it is hard to do sometimes. Add in that I think there are at least 2 George's. There's George-we-see-with-the-FBI and there's George-under-Cindy's-watchful-eye. So...I'm not sure its all that productive to speculate on it much more. Just suffice it to say...

1) Regardless of intentions/motivations...it appears to me the story we've all heard George tell 'bout the last time he saw Caylee was, indeed, a description of the events that occurred 6/9.

2) ON 6/16, whether George later recalled it or not, George KNEW Casey was @ G&C's Hopespring house with Caylee when he left for work ~2:30PM, as evidenced by his call to the house @ ~3:03PM just prior to his call to Casey's cell @ ~3:04PM.

Hope that helps.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Yes, and thank you, but did GA leave for work from Hopespring Drive on June 16?

Does/would this matter? (rumor has it that GA had a g.f. and A's were divorcing)

 

[BondJamesBond]

Yes, and thank you, but did GA leave for work from Hopespring Drive on June 16?

Does/would this matter? (rumor has it that GA had a g.f. and A's were divorcing)

I have no reason to build speculation on a foundation of rumors. Its hard enough building on on a base of reasonably verified facts, IMHO.

IMHO computer forensics of browser searches & home phone records when Cindy was at work and Casey was elsewhere provide solid evidence George was living @ Hopespring.

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

Bond - George *rarely* called KC. I find it very odd that he called her at home and then her cell (and why didn't she just answer the house phone??).

Of course, GA and KC were supposedly coming to a new place in their strained relationship and that's why she ultimately picked GA to meet with privately.

Maybe it was because she knew GA knew she wasn't running off to work every afternoon and they needed to get their story straight.

Either way, good catch on noticing GA calling the house and KC's cell! It certainly rocks the theory thread!

 

[JWG]

Bond - George *rarely* called KC. I find it very odd that he called her at home and then her cell (and why didn't she just answer the house phone??).

Ah...elementary. The reason she did not answer the house phone was that she was on her cell with Jesse.

She probably figured that whoever was calling was not calling for her, so why end her call w/ Jesse? Then, one minute later George calls KC's cell, KC looks and sees it is her dad, and because his calls to her are so rare, she figures she better take it and rings off with Jesse.

 

[The World According]

Cindy is discussing many things, the date is at the very start of the tape. In her frantic state and listening to her sheer panic on the last 911 call...I do believe frantic is a fair description, I understand how mom could have blurted out the wrong date. How Casey, the one who has been living knowing the baby is gone could agree to the wrong date defies logic to me.



RAW VIDEO: http://www.wftv.com/video/18149829/index.html

WFTV.com NEWS Wednesday, November 26, 2008 – updated: 8:42 am

 

[Turnadot]

KC claimed a different date other than June 9th from the get-go, when talking to the 911 dispatcher on July 15, imo.

Casey: hello.
Dispatch: hello.
Casey: yes.
Dispatch: hi. What can you… can you tell me what’s going on a little bit?
Casey: I’m sorry?
Dispatch: can you tell me a little bit what’s going on?
Casey: my daughter’s been missing for the last 31 days.


Link: http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Sidebar/2008/7/24/transcript_of_second_911_call_from_cindy_anthony.html


KC isn't changing the date to another during this call, however, she hadn't yet said the 9th, either, imo.

 

[The World According]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao8Z2L8KN-I&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

 

[AZlawyer]

Casey seems to have a little bit of an obsession with counting days. IMO she knew June 9 was wrong wrong wrong, but thought it would be better for her story to match Cindy's.

On June 24, Casey wrote to a friend that she had not lived at the A house "in nine days." On July 15, she told the police (more than once, IIRC) that she had not seen Caylee "in 31 days." I don't know her method of counting days (i.e., does she count the start date as well as the end date?), but let's assume that whatever method she used was at least consistent.

Then on June 25, she would not have lived at the A house in 10 days.

On June 30, she would not have lived at the A house in 15 days.

On July 15, she would not have lived at the A house in 30 days, but had not seen Caylee in 31 days.:waitasec:

Casey's counting system suggests that she moved out of the house the day AFTER Caylee "disappeared." And Casey had moved out by June 16, so that would put Caylee's date of "disappearance" at June 15.

Just something to keep in the back of our minds as we're considering whether Casey killed Caylee (or left her in the trunk to die) in the late afternoon/evening of June 16, as many of us have been speculating.

 

[BondJamesBond]

FWIW, RE: Date of Casey's move out.

IIRC, the computer forensics indicated heavy activity on the laptop occurred on the afternoon of 6/17, including the loading of the nursing home video file.

IOW...IMHO, packing up the laptop during her trip home 6/17 is a strong indication that Casey planned to be gone from the home for an extended period beginning on 6/17 and not before.

On a related note as to the subject of the thread (posted earlier)...IMHO George's call to the Hopespring home phone ~3:03 PM that he IMMEDIATELY followed with a call to Casey's cell phone supports that George knew Casey was at the house when he left for work that afternoon. Hence, if Caylee was already dead, 6/16, OR if Casey planned to off Caylee that night, 6/16, Casey had the opportunity to load files & pack up the laptop on the afternoon of 6/16 before leaving ~4:11 PM.

IMHO, Casey didn't plan to be gone for more than the night 6/16 when she left the house that afternoon.

 

[AZlawyer]

FWIW, RE: Date of Casey's move out.

IIRC, the computer forensics indicated heavy activity on the laptop occurred on the afternoon of 6/17, including the loading of the nursing home video file.

IOW...IMHO, packing up the laptop during her trip home 6/17 is a strong indication that Casey planned to be gone from the home for an extended period beginning on 6/17 and not before.

On a related note as to the subject of the thread (posted earlier)...IMHO George's call to the Hopespring home phone ~3:03 PM that he IMMEDIATELY followed with a call to Casey's cell phone supports that George knew Casey was at the house when he left for work that afternoon. Hence, if Caylee was already dead, 6/16, OR if Casey planned to off Caylee that night, 6/16, Casey had the opportunity to load files & pack up the laptop on the afternoon of 6/16 before leaving ~4:11 PM.

IMHO, Casey didn't plan to be gone for more than the night 6/16 when she left the house that afternoon.

But there's no method of counting days that could get you 9 days from 6/17 to 6/24. The absolute latest she could have moved out that she could have considered "9 days" before 6/24 would have been 6/16 (counting 6/16, 6/17, 6/18, 6/19, 6/20, 6/21, 6/22, 6/23 and 6/24). By this (stupid) method of counting days, 6/15 to 7/15 would indeed be "31 days." But 6/16 to 7/15 would be only 30.

I agree that this whole "number of days" thing should only be a minor part of our evaluation of the evidence. After all, we're relying on Casey's truthfulness here. :banghead:

 

[BondJamesBond]

...its worse than that, AZ. It would mean relying on the product of Casey's ( truthfulness x intellect) . To the degree that Casey - given multiple opportunities to create one - couldn't weave a single version of an abduction that converged with even the majority of objectively identifiable facts...speaks as much to her intellect as it does her truthfulness.

I'd wager you invested an order of magnitude more consideration into generating your post than Casey did generating her tally.

 

[JWG]

Casey seems to have a little bit of an obsession with counting days. IMO she knew June 9 was wrong wrong wrong, but thought it would be better for her story to match Cindy's.

On June 24, Casey wrote to a friend that she had not lived at the A house "in nine days." On July 15, she told the police (more than once, IIRC) that she had not seen Caylee "in 31 days." I don't know her method of counting days (i.e., does she count the start date as well as the end date?), but let's assume that whatever method she used was at least consistent.

Then on June 25, she would not have lived at the A house in 10 days.

On June 30, she would not have lived at the A house in 15 days.

On July 15, she would not have lived at the A house in 30 days, but had not seen Caylee in 31 days.:waitasec:

Casey's counting system suggests that she moved out of the house the day AFTER Caylee "disappeared." And Casey had moved out by June 16, so that would put Caylee's date of "disappearance" at June 15.

Just something to keep in the back of our minds as we're considering whether Casey killed Caylee (or left her in the trunk to die) in the late afternoon/evening of June 16, as many of us have been speculating.

It has always seemed to me that KC may be prone to "inclusive" subtraction.

Simple example:

Today is Saturday and I last saw Bond's twin brother Oddjob on Sunday. That was six days ago. But wait, a week runs Sunday through Saturday, and that is seven days. Why the difference?

Because in one case I am looking at the mathematical difference between two numbers (dates) and in the other I am counting the number of days from start to finish, including both start and finish.