2009.06.22 Nancy Grace

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I just wonder if KC always carried a supply of heart shaped stickers around with her??????? Did she go home and get one after applying the duct tape? Or did it happen in the A's house?
I still think it happened at the house. Good point about the stickers also!
 
She is not charged with "premeditated murder". She is charged with felony murder of a child/with agravating circumstances. Which is also a DP offense in Florida.

Not all states laws are exactly the same. In the case of Florida premeditation is not always absolutely necesary for capital punishment, in certain specific circumstances.

They are arguing a misinterpreted issue from the indictment.
The jury indicted Casey under the following statutes:

782.04 1 A 1 Premeditated

827.03 2 Aggravated Child Abuse

782.07 3 Aggravated Manslaughter

When the outcome of the act of aggravated child abuse is death it is felony murder in the state of Florida. They clearly aren't saying that Caylee is alive. The grand jury came back with indictments that would cover premeditated murder and death due to abuse or negligence.
 
Tape may have already been in car. Amy kept tape on hand. Why wouldn't KC start carrying tape. Maybe she thought it was kool for a woman to have d-tape on hand.
It's possible but it's still something she would've had to think about doing, and wrapping takes time. :seeya:
 
Correct. The aggravating factor is the age of the child, IIRC.


(2) "Aggravated child abuse" occurs when a person:

(a) Commits aggravated battery on a child;
(b) Willfully tortures, maliciously punishes, or willfully and unlawfully cages a child; or (c) Knowingly or willfully abuses a child and in so doing causes great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the child.

A person who commits aggravated child abuse commits a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0827/SEC03.HTM

aggravated child abuse is item h under the 782.04 murder statute as an aggraviting circumstance.
 
i have all kinds of duct tape

some of it rips easier than others, call me a self proclaimed expert on duct tape. is is real handy when you are building or fixing something and need an extra hand temporarily to hold something together while you screw it together with screws and a screw gun..

didnt they find a knife in the car ?? i bet the killer used the knife to cut some of the tape and probably has residue from the tape on the knife..

i guess the babysitter left the knife in KC's car :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
IMO, this was premeditated. The tape didn't happen to appear miraculously, I believe she had it on hand. If that was the case then she knew exactly what she was doing. I do not believe for a second that she simply her face leaving no air passages exposed to simply quiet her. I believe that KC knew exactly what she was doing, this was not an accident. With all this, I think this also happened right in the A's home.

i have tried at times to force myself to believe that she killed Caylee then applied the duct tape to make it look like a kidnapping. but, it sounds like CA went a little nuts with the tape. kidnappers usually cover eyes and mouth, i have horrible visions of CA wrapping Caylee up like a mummy with the tape. it sounds like the amount of tape used was used in effort to cause death and not to fake a kidnapping.
 
Any REASONABLE person can infer, based on the fact that the duct tape was wrapped so tightly that it did not disarticulate her mandible from her skull (when nothing else would have held those two pieces of bone together after all that time and decomposition/deterioration) that the duct tape was put there wantonly, willfully in an effort to kill the child. A small piece of tape to "prevent decomp leakage" as a few have speculated, would not serve to adhere the mandible to the skull. Think about it and think about it logically: even with all the deterioration, the weather conditions, and the animal feeding, that tape was wrapped so tightly that it held the skull together. That says something. ANYONE can see the intent in that. Once it is explained, at trial, in depth, no one will question with what motive she wrapped that poor babies head...
 
It's possible but it's still something she would've had to think about doing, and wrapping takes time. :seeya:

:blowkiss:
Yes, but thats not what I meant. I know she had time to think about it. But I thought there was a question back up there somewhere as to where she got the d-tape--->car--garage--house--store----I was just saying that she may have had it in car and then decided to use it. OMG---maybe I need to go to bed. LOL
 
Any REASONABLE person can infer, based on the fact that the duct tape was wrapped so tightly that it did not disarticulate her mandible from her skull (when nothing else would have held those two pieces of bone together after all that time and decomposition/deterioration) that the duct tape was put there wantonly, willfully in an effort to kill the child. A small piece of tape to "prevent decomp leakage" as a few have speculated, would not serve to adhere the mandible to the skull. Think about it and think about it logically: even with all the deterioration, the weather conditions, and the animal feeding, that tape was wrapped so tightly that it held the skull together. That says something. ANYONE can see the intent in that. Once it is explained, at trial, in depth, no one will question with what motive she wrapped that poor babies head...

Great post Mama-cita!!! I really dread hearing all this explained at trial. Did I understand correctly from NG that even animals weren't able to remove the tape? Did I hear that or dream it?
 
Why wouldn't pre-meditated murder apply? Just became the means of death was different from the earlier pre-meditations doesn't make the eventual death any less pre-meditated.

One plans to kill someone using chloroform and even neckbreaking, but finally kills the victim in a fit of rage by smothering the person. Doesn't make it any less premeditation. The end result is still the same. The person is dead at the hands of the original premeditator.

Obviously the animals didn't remove the tape since the MEs had a devil of a time doing so.
 
Don't you think multiple layers of duct tape over an alive child's nose and mouth might be felony abuse?

I think the medical examiner all but said Caylee was alive when the duct taping occurred. I'd be happy to further discuss the reasons I believe this on the duct tape thread.

Regarding the circumstances surrounding the duct tape, what can be proven will decide if there is felony child abuse or misdemeanor child abuse or none at all. Nevertheless, the crux of the case is centered on murder, and Casey has not been charged with felony murder, only murder one. Ergo, felony murder is not an option.

As regards the M. E., the key point remains that they did not say Caylee was alive when the duct tape went over her face.
 
They're merely the building blocks to reasonable doubt.

No. Jurors cannot substitute questions for evidence. If a jury were to tell the judge they had reached a verdict based on questions, the judge would re-instruct the jury or declare a mistrial -- jury was too stupid to follow jury instructions.
 
I am sure you mean well but you have a very poor understanding of these matters, and especially when decomposition begins, so your jumping off point is flawed.
Decomposing bodies start producing ammonia (NH3) in the lungs quite soon after death, and the ammonia diffuses outward through the nose and mouth. Ammonia is lighter than air, and it diffuses rapidly. The rate of production of ammonia decreases with time after death.

Within a few hours, depending on weather conditions, a body starts to produce heavier amines in its tissues, e.g., putrescine (1,4-diaminobutane), and cadaverine (1,5-diaminopentane). In the trunk of Casey's (no one else's...) car there was evidence of decomposition, they said the body was decomposing there for aprox 2 1/2 days. I do not mean to offend anyone. It is a level you to the floor smell that George and Cindy recognized immediately and seasoned homicide detectives agreed and all of this was before the lab tested the car. The jury won't need the dots to be any closer together to connect and make an inference. I promise you! I think the actual report may help you understand the cold hard facts here, respectfully. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...l-caylee-anthony-autopsy-2,0,3085300.htmlpage

:confused::waitasec:

What does the process of decomposition and the evidence that points to Caylee's body having been in the trunk of KC's car have to do with anything in my post you have quoted here? What is it that you think I have a poor understanding of and what 'jumping off point' are you referring to that is 'flawed' because of the facts about decomposition?
 
Pre-meditation can literally be within seconds.

There has to be a period of reflection. The FL jury instructions on 1st Degree Murder include the following:

“Killing with premeditation” is killing after consciously deciding to do so. The decision must be present in the mind at the time of the killing. The law does not fix the exact period of time that must pass between the formation of the premeditated intent to kill and the killing. The period of time must be long enough to allow reflection by the defendant. The premeditated intent to kill must be formed before the killing.
 
There has to be a period of reflection. The FL jury instructions on 1st Degree Murder include the following:

“Killing with premeditation” is killing after consciously deciding to do so. The decision must be present in the mind at the time of the killing. The law does not fix the exact period of time that must pass between the formation of the premeditated intent to kill and the killing. The period of time must be long enough to allow reflection by the defendant. The premeditated intent to kill must be formed before the killing.

Link please?

And one would have to get the duct tape
Or have placed it in the area in advance,
Tear off piece one, put the tape down, apply the tape,
Reach for the tape a second time, tear off piece two, apply it,
and then reach for it a third time and apply it.

Alternatively defendant gathered items needed, tore three lengths of tape in advance, and then individually applied them.

Suffocation takes several minutes, 3 to 7 minutes.
During this time the victim would thrash about violently while their oxygen levels depleted and the carbon dioxide level became fatal.

Alternatively defendant drugged the victim prior to suffocation and applied the tape to unconscious body, which of course requires having the drug/poison available and dosing the victim with it.

During the several minutes that death would take the defendant did not attempt to remove the tape
Nor did she attempt to resuscitate victim
Nor did she call for medical help.

All require conscious decision making and provide ample opportunity to reflect and change course.

I promise you that leaving her child to rot in the woods until the exact cause of death could not be determined will not benefit her in the jury room. They only need to believe beyond a reasonable doubt that she willfully killed her child and the defense is not going to have a alternative scenario that provides reasonable doubt. The only way to say it was an accident would be for the defendant to say it was, and if you note she is also indicted under the aggravated child abuse statute (becomes a capital crime when the victim dies) and aggravated manslaughter (which would cover accidents that appropriate attempts at medical care were not sought or death caused by the defendants negligence).
 
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