2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

The ME didn't state there was tape covering Caylee's eyes, her nose and mouth yes....I don't recall the eyes, is this something uncovered within the documents???
*snipped*

IIRC, the released report indicated the tape was placed in the mouth and nasal aperture area. And, thanks to Beach, IIRC, :waitasec: the anatomy refresher is that the opening in the skull where the nose sits is the "aperture". When the report was first release there was significant debate on whether the the tape extended far enough into the nasal aperture to have covered Caylee's nostrils. The wording in the report left you guessing a bit, IIRC.

IMHO, after looking @ Q63 & Q64 stuck together creating what I scaled to be ~2.6" of coverage in width - and comparing that to what I scale to be ~2" distance between the bottom of Caylee's chin and the bottom of her nose - I agree that there won't be any doubt in the juror's minds when looking @ the pics that the tape covered Caylee's nostrils.

RE: Covering the eyes. That is purely speculation based on the points in my original post. Some interesting discussion re: "fringe" hairs found on the tape and what they might be from. Harmony2 provided some reference mat'l I hafta read this weekend to become conversant.

HTH!
 
*snipped*

IIRC, the released report indicated the tape was placed in the mouth and nasal aperture area. And, thanks to Beach, IIRC, :waitasec: the anatomy refresher is that the opening in the skull where the nose sits is the "aperture". When the report was first release there was significant debate on whether the the tape extended far enough into the nasal aperture to have covered Caylee's nostrils. The wording in the report left you guessing a bit, IIRC.

IMHO, after looking @ Q63 & Q64 stuck together creating what I scaled to be ~2.6" of coverage in width - and comparing that to what I scale to be ~2" distance between the bottom of Caylee's chin and the bottom of her nose - I agree that there won't be any doubt in the juror's minds when looking @ the pics that the tape covered Caylee's nostrils.

RE: Covering the eyes. That is purely speculation based on the points in my original post. Some interesting discussion re: "fringe" hairs found on the tape and what they might be from. Harmony2 provided some reference mat'l I hafta read this weekend to become conversant.

HTH!

Thank you so much Bond for taking the time to do this for us. It is very shocking to actually see it versus hearing about it.
 
First – it is important to observe the order in which segments must’ve been torn from the roll and how that relates each end one to the other. For example, when tape is layered, the outer-most segment was the last one torn from the roll.



Second – it is important to note that the Henkel logo markings provide us with an easy means to identify the direction each segment of tape was originally on the roll. This cuts in half the number of possible end pairings that we have to consider. :thumb:

Third – consider when a right handed person applies tape from a roll they will typically use their right hand to spool the roll in a left-to-right direction. The Henkel logo orientation on Q64 and Q63 are consistent with this left-to-right application, FWIW.

Consider the following simple 2-dimensional scale image of Caylee’s face using one of her recent pictures and an average pupillary distance for a 3 year old female of 46mm using the linked reference.



Important elements used in the speculation that follows:
(A) The scaled image of Caylee’s face,
(B) The scaled image of Q63 & Q64, and
(C) Q100 being apart from the other tape segments​

  1. For the placement of Q63 I turned the image of Q63 w/ Q64 upside down and observed what appeared to be shaping suggesting that Q63 was initially affixed to Caylee’s left cheek/lower neck/hair area and, in a left-to-right motion the tape drawn across her chin and mouth area without covering the nasal cavities, in a slight upward diagonal across her face





  2. For the purpose of discussion, since Q100 was placed immediately after Q64 and before Q63 & Q62, yet, the face was still the focus of Q63 & Q62, consider that Q100 may have been placed over the eyes and bridge of nose at a slight diagonal that would eventually be parallel with the placement of Q63. Q100 does not appear to me to have covered the nasal cavity, only the bridge of the nose. Again, Q100 would’ve been affixed in a left-to-right motion with the right end covering Caylee’s left ear. This may explain the severe degradation of this end of the tape as this would’ve been the location of the lowest point of the head from which fluids would prefer to drain if Caylee were placed in the trunk on her left side as was suggested in the images of the stain in the trunk described here







  3. This body orientation may also explain what appears to be advanced degradation of Q64 on the (right) side of the tape that would’ve been on Caylee’s left-lower cheek/jaw in contact with fluid on the trunk flooring

  4. This placement of Q100 may also explain how it would’ve been affixed to irregular surfaces (e.g. eye lids/sockets, bridge of nose, eyebrow/eyelash hairs) that wouldn’t hold it in place as readily as the other segments. Perhaps Q100 was dislodged from her face after being exposed to decomp fluids in the heat when Casey pulled a trashbag down over Caylee’s head and past the left side of her face still being pushed against the floor of the trunk by gravity. This may have resulted in Q100 settling in the abdomen area where it eventually became associated with the shirt and subsequently transported by water/predators @ the Suburban Dr. disposal site.

  5. In addition to noting the focus of all of the other tape segments on the face, consider that IF Q100 had been used to bind Caylee’s wrists it was sufficiently long, IMHO, to have encircled them and adhered back onto itself. Given that Q62, 63 & 64 remained adhered to one another when exposed to similar conditions, I believe Q100 would’ve survived in this configuration also and have been found in the bag with the remains of the arms.

  6. It is the scaled image of Q63 crossing Q64 that leads me to believe that Q63 was placed directly over Caylee’s nostrils. Again using a left-to-right motion at a slightly steeper angle than what was used for Q64, Q63 was used to cover the space that remained between Q64 and Q100 such that it overlapped Q64 as-found, yet, only contacted Q100 at the edge. The measure width of Q63 + Q64 in their as-found condition is 2.6”. Again, using the scaled image of Caylee’s face and the image, this distance would cover from her chin to just over the end of her nose as shown. While it maybe a figment of my imagination, I can envision the formation of the tape in the image to suggest where it once was wrapped around the jaw/mouth/nose area with enough force to leave this impression and hold the mandible in place.


  7. Q62 was placed last, chiefly over the top of Q63 & Q64.


  8. Pure speculation, but, perhaps the angle of tape being applied somewhat consistently was the result of Caylee’s head being tilted to her right from being in her carseat (a) asleep, (b) sedated, or (c) subject to post-mortem rigor & gravity. This angle would’ve been the result of Casey taping in a horizontal manner

Unfortunately, I haven’t found anything in the above yet to convince me beyond a doubt that the tape was applied post vs. peri-mortem. I can still envision either scenario. Although if I'm forced to make a call @ the moment, the simplicity of the tape originating and returning to the garage begs post-mortem application. I need to let this sink in a bit more and perhaps it’ll become clearer. :waitasec:

Bond, thank you for all this incredible work. What was that thing they used to test in school along with math and reading? Spatial relationships? Yeah, I'm not too good at those. So I've been twisting my head around at my computer and flipping pictures and I have no idea if I have this right, BUT it seems to me that, based on the position of the Henkel logo in the first attached photo (the "inside" of the tape) and the assumption of a right-handed person applying the tape so the logo is toward their right-hand side, Q63 (the top one of the crossed tape pieces) was placed lower than Q64, not higher. But I agree that where it would diverge from the placement of Q64 would be to the right side of Caylee's face (the left side from our point of view looking at your drawing of the face), as you have shown.

So...I know that was the worst sentence ever, but the point is if you take the second page of the attached .pdf and hit "rotate clockwise" twice, that should be the placement of Q64, with Q63 crossed on top, from Casey's point of view looking at Caylee. :( Which might help if we are looking for impressions of the jaw area, etc.
 

Attachments

  • ducttapeoverlap.pdf
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thanks so much for your work as always, Bond. One thing I'm not clear about, why does the illustration show tape over the bridge of Caylee's nose and over her eyes when the crime scene investigators only noted tape over her mouth area?

It is amazing about you matching up the tape segments from viewing the tears in photos like that. I understand how you estimate the order that they came off the roll based on the repeat pattern and the edge shape and so on, but how do you know the order they were placed onto Caylee or where, and the direction they were placed (i.e. left to right) and so on?

If the mouth tape you showed was at that angle that does remind me a bit of the X shape mouth taping we saw on that one photo of Lee's roomate that we were discussing again yesterday or the day before (half of the X anyway.)
 
p.s. oh you posted some more when I was writing that, I'll catch up :)
 
This thread is getting harder and harder to read, which I hope means we're getting closer and closer to the truth.

I agree. I think that is exactly why it hit me so hard last night. That is a good thing, though. I realize that the truth is not always easy to digest.

ETA: The dress is just a rumor. Pay no attention. Move along.

I owe him for the apology anyway, so I'll trout-slap him for both of us. ;) :trout:
 
Your most recent work here on the duct tape is outstanding BJB and I am incredulous you have been able to put it together in plain enough language so all can understand. Kudos.

Nonetheless,while I have read and studied every word, it is excruciatingly painful to read and I have no idea how a jury of ordinary folk will survive this information without endless nightmares for a long time after.
 
This thread is getting harder and harder to read, which I hope means we're getting closer and closer to the truth.

To answer someone's question up the thread, the heart sticker residue (if it was really there) was "near the end" of Q63 (the piece that was put over the top of Q64, which was over the mouth). I don't think we know which end.

ETA: The dress is just a rumor. Pay no attention. Move along.

ETA2: "Q100" referenced by Bond is just the OCSO number for "Q104" referenced by others. So we are still talking about 4 pieces of Henkel tape--3 found on the skull and one at the scene.

Thanxs AZ, for answering my question about the sticker. This is still interesting for me, the placement of it. After we learned about this sticker, the subject kinda/sorta dropped to the wayside of our threads. Now that BJB and everyone has done an exceptional, yet sensitive analysis of the pieces and their placements, the sticker is more important now ..... I would think.
 
No stranger is gonna tape a baby's face, they're just gonna dump the body. And not 15 houses away from the child's home.

I dunno, think of those attempted abductions in Orlando, they arrested a suspect last May or thereabouts didn't they, the perp just scoped out houses from backyards and woods, entered through back doors, took the little 4 year old girl from her bedroom to the garage (taking shorts and a blanket from her room), duct taped her mouth, wrists, and ankles in the garage..... went in the house to gather more items and in the meantime the 4 year old managed (thank God) to get the tape off her mouth enough to scream. The family were awakened, he fled. I have no idea how far he would have taken the child if he'd managed to get out with her, or if he would have just left her body somewhere in the garage or what.

But I see what you mean about if the whole face was covered. Maybe if the perp didn't want to see the face of his/her victim for whatever reason or didn't want the victim to see him/her. Unless covering the victim's whole face has any gang meaning or was a message to Casey of some kind. Maybe just done by a crazy or intoxicated person or someone who has a duct tape or mask fetish or something. Or, to cover the face because injuries to the face were too disturbing to look at during transport or disposal. No, in that case I think the person would cover the face with something other than tape. Tape would be more for binding or silencing or even potentially blindfolding as mentioned here.

Well, thanks so much to you guys (Bond, Valhall et al) who matched up the tears in the tape, etc. That is amazing.
 
I dunno, think of those attempted abductions in Orlando, they arrested a suspect last May or thereabouts didn't they, the perp just scoped out houses from backyards and woods, entered through back doors, took the little 4 year old girl from her bedroom to the garage (taking shorts and a blanket from her room), duct taped her mouth, wrists, and ankles in the garage..... went in the house to gather more items and in the meantime the 4 year old managed (thank God) to get the tape off her mouth enough to scream. The family were awakened, he fled. I have no idea how far he would have taken the child if he'd managed to get out with her, or if he would have just left her body somewhere in the garage or what.

But I see what you mean about if the whole face was covered. Maybe if the perp didn't want to see the face of his/her victim for whatever reason or didn't want the victim to see him/her. Unless covering the victim's whole face has any gang meaning or was a message to Casey of some kind. Maybe just done by a crazy or intoxicated person or someone who has a duct tape or mask fetish or something. Or, to cover the face because injuries to the face were too disturbing to look at during transport or disposal. No, in that case I think the person would cover the face with something other than tape. Tape would be more for binding or silencing or even potentially blindfolding as mentioned here.

Well, thanks so much to you guys (Bond, Valhall et al) who matched up the tears in the tape, etc. That is amazing.

BBM: And where was KC while this would have been going on??? Other than a stripper pole, that is.
 
*snipped*

IIRC, the released report indicated the tape was placed in the mouth and nasal aperture area. And, thanks to Beach, IIRC, :waitasec: the anatomy refresher is that the opening in the skull where the nose sits is the "aperture". When the report was first release there was significant debate on whether the the tape extended far enough into the nasal aperture to have covered Caylee's nostrils. The wording in the report left you guessing a bit, IIRC.

IMHO, after looking @ Q63 & Q64 stuck together creating what I scaled to be ~2.6" of coverage in width - and comparing that to what I scale to be ~2" distance between the bottom of Caylee's chin and the bottom of her nose - I agree that there won't be any doubt in the juror's minds when looking @ the pics that the tape covered Caylee's nostrils.

I know the MEs noted in this report that the tape was lying over the nasal and mouth apertures when the remains arrived for autopsy, but I assumed since the tape is no longer stuck to a face, it would have some movement. If the MEs had felt reasonably convinced that the tape was originally covering both her mouth and nose wouldn't they have said she was suffocated (as cause of death)? Why did they say undetermined means?
 
BBM: And where was KC while this would have been going on??? Other than a stripper pole, that is.

Oh no, lest Casey be accused of those abduction attempts, it was a male perp! :) I'll try to link it in again since he did use duct tape.

Thanks again to all of our tape sleuths
 
BBM: And where was KC while this would have been going on??? Other than a stripper pole, that is.

and to add to LambChop's comment, how and why did this purposed crazed individual get Caylee's body in the trunk of Casey's car and why did Casey ignore the smell for as long as she did? And where did Casey think Caylee was if not with the supposed Nanny she left her with.

Surely, if she had no idea how her car got that way,she would have taken it home to Dad and said Dad can you detail the car for me. But then of course she would have had to explain that Caylee was with the Nanny, who wasn't giving her back and the whole thing would have fallen apart (again).
 
I know the MEs noted in this report that the tape was lying over the nasal and mouth apertures when the remains arrived for autopsy, but I assumed since the tape is no longer stuck to a face, it would have some movement. If the MEs had felt reasonably convinced that the tape was originally covering both her mouth and nose wouldn't they have said she was suffocated (as cause of death)? Why did they say undetermined means?

They would have to assume the tape was put on before she died to say she suffocated.

This is getting harder and harder to read...those poor jurors...yet this is not the first trial that will cause nightmares.

I remember listening to the SA when presenting the GJ indictment against KC he said something to the affect that they needed to be exposed to some horridly, graphic forensics.
 
Oh no, lest Casey be accused of those abduction attempts, it was a male perp! :) I'll try to link it in again since he also used duct tape etc.

Thanks again to all of our tape sleuths

I believe you said perps doing the taping. Who do you think would do that? Who would put four layers of duct tape on a child's face? Four layers is a bit of an overkill. Perps usually just kill the child and don't usually spend a lot of detailed time killing the child. This was four layers, each one ripped of one at a time. Sounds very personal, very personal. Someone very close to the child and meant to send a message. jmo
 
I know the MEs noted in this report that the tape was lying over the nasal and mouth apertures when the remains arrived for autopsy, but I assumed since the tape is no longer stuck to a face, it would have some movement. If the MEs had felt reasonably convinced that the tape was originally covering both her mouth and nose wouldn't they have said she was suffocated (as cause of death)? Why did they say undetermined means?


I keep thinking this was done after death to keep fluids from leaking and possilbly already leaked into car. Then sealed it with a smiley heart sticker. JMO.
 
I know the MEs noted in this report that the tape was lying over the nasal and mouth apertures when the remains arrived for autopsy, but I assumed since the tape is no longer stuck to a face, it would have some movement. If the MEs had felt reasonably convinced that the tape was originally covering both her mouth and nose wouldn't they have said she was suffocated (as cause of death)? Why did they say undetermined means?

I will throw my personal experience out there to put things into perspective regarding the placement of duct tape on a live person. The duct tape was placed on me against my will by a man who escaped from prison and broke into my house. No need for I'm sorries as I have typed about this before and just want to put my perspective out here regarding this report. Measuring from 1/4 " from my bottom lip to cover the tip of my nose is 2 1/4 ". When my mouth was covered with the silver duct tape it was placed so that my mouth and the tip of my nose was covered and pulled tight into my hair. My hair is thick, long and naturally curly. Caylee's hair looked fine and rather thin. Once the tape was placed, I had to purse or pucker my lips to try to get some room to breathe. It was not easy. The tape can not be removed like a band aide where you can try to do the quick pull from side to side. What I had to do once I was cut loose was to pull the tape down around my chin and then stretched it to slide around my neck. My hair held the tape in place and it had to be cut out. It would be my assumption that because of Caylee's baby hair that the tape was able to adhere to her scalp and ear area. With the tape over my eyes, I could not see, but my forehead allowed the tape to rest on my cheekbones rather than stick to my eyes and eyelashes. Again, I could not remove it but rolled it up to my forehead and my hair had to be cut out to remove it. I think the tape could be the cause of death from my experience because I was 22 and had a hard time manipulating my lips to allow me to breathe. Poor Caylee didn't have a chance. Also, even if her hands were not bound I don't think she could remove the tape because 1. it hurts and 2. to find where to pull the tape off is quite difficult because you have to be strong enough to stretch the tape. Since Caylee is in a skeletonized state, I imagine the exact cause of death would be almost impossible to rule on involving soft tissue. The fact that an adult could survive having their face duct taped does not mean that an almost 3 year old child could survive the same. BJB is definitely on to something with the diagram of the tape placement IMO.
 
I keep thinking this was done after death to keep fluids from leaking and possilbly already leaked into car. Then sealed it with a smiley heart sticker. JMO.

But if it was done pre-decomp as the ME has declared - what killer thinks about fluids leaking immediately after the murder? That's where I keep getting stuck on this - no way would I think after I killed someone - well gee, now what to do about the fluids. Not trying to be a smart azz but honestly I wouldn't in a million years have that thought.
 
I keep thinking this was done after death to keep fluids from leaking and possilbly already leaked into car. Then sealed it with a smiley heart sticker. JMO.

I hate to write this but upon death everything is your system purges out. The face is the least of your worries. It would have been faster to put her in a bag then sit there and tear four pieces of tape to tape over those areas. Plus ears have canals, too.

Think of the heart sticker as a message to KC's mother if it was done in a fit of rage. And we know KC has a temper....

jmo
 
I dunno, think of those attempted abductions in Orlando, they arrested a suspect last May or thereabouts didn't they, the perp just scoped out houses from backyards and woods, entered through back doors, took the little 4 year old girl from her bedroom to the garage (taking shorts and a blanket from her room), duct taped her mouth, wrists, and ankles in the garage..... went in the house to gather more items and in the meantime the 4 year old managed (thank God) to get the tape off her mouth enough to scream. The family were awakened, he fled. I have no idea how far he would have taken the child if he'd managed to get out with her, or if he would have just left her body somewhere in the garage or what.

--respectfully snipped

Seagull, with all respect, I am responding only because you snipped and quoted a portion of MY post. However, I refuse to go off on some tangent or play any part in derailing this thread out of respect for Bond and so many others that have volunteered countless hours to provide us with so much valuable info so that we may get to the truth.

That said, the portion of your post I snipped sounds like a gold mine for the defense. Probably even more lucrative the the TES records they are so obsessed over. Maybe they will pursue that further.
 

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