2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

Reagan

New Member
Joined
May 26, 2009
Messages
919
Reaction score
1
The dimensions of the tape, and the close-as-we-can-get dimensions of Caylee's skull.. rest her soul, it puts things into perspective.

If BJB's analysis is close to accurate, this shows me that Caylee was alive while it was put on, and I'm thinking the tilt of the tape is due to pull back from Caylee.

No one is going to have the sense to throw their decomposing child in the trunk, pretend it's not there, and when leakage occurred, go and tape up orifices.

KC wanted her out of thought, out of mind. And Caylee was out of her mind/life/etc until oops, oh yeah, bodies smell. So she was bagged and tossed out like trash.

It simply shocks the conscience.
 

BondJamesBond

Blunt Instrument
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
3,872
Reaction score
14
One of the pieces had 2 different lengths listed. I forget which one.
 

beach

Verified Expert
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
18,372
Reaction score
4,535
OK, now I remember. This doc said ~9.5" (e.g., it was an approx. measurement) and the other doc I saw said 9.75".

yeah, I started to edit my other post to say that the link I provided was not the FBI specs. Now I can't get the pdf to re-load. I thought it said 'TEU' on the letterhead.


help me out....who/what is TEU?
 

Harmony 2

Administrator
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
12,874
Reaction score
22,094
yeah, I started to edit my other post to say that the link I provided was not the FBI specs. Now I can't get the pdf to re-load. I thought it said 'TEU' on the letterhead.


help me out....who/what is TEU?

TEU= Trace Evidence Unit
 

Anais

New Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
1,465
Reaction score
5
BJB,

Thank you for:
1) The countless hours you have spent on this
2) Complete attention to detail
3) Respectfulness
4) Copious notes
5) complete disclosure of findings vs. speculation
6) tenacity in seeking Justice for Caylee

there are many others here at WS who have helped in this same capacity and through the collective - I believe this "death mask" will be revealed in court. IOW the prosecutors read here and hired BJB to bring his findings in (and then support those findings with the forensic findings).


ITA! You have said it all...so all I can say is a great big THANK YOU!!!

I must say this particular thread's subject and combined content have probably been the most difficult and disturbing for me to read & digest. It's taken me a great length of time just to get through it all. I think that I've finally gotten a pretty good undertsnading no though. I wonder how the SA will address the jury in terms of the tape being placed post vs. pre? There is really no way to know?

For me I just wonder if Casey put the tape there to keep Caylee from crying out if she awoke while in the trunk before she had died?

Again big thanks for all of the effort & difficult work time put into this!!!
 

beach

Verified Expert
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
18,372
Reaction score
4,535
TEU= Trace Evidence Unit

:doh:

Thanks Harmony!


Usually I save the embarrassingly obvious questions for pm's. I've done that a couple of times recently, in fact. :blushing:
 

joypath

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
857
I know the MEs noted in this report that the tape was lying over the nasal and mouth apertures when the remains arrived for autopsy, but I assumed since the tape is no longer stuck to a face, it would have some movement. If the MEs had felt reasonably convinced that the tape was originally covering both her mouth and nose wouldn't they have said she was suffocated (as cause of death)? Why did they say undetermined means?

seagull: I noticed that you questioned the COD on another post and responded with the following (slightly edited!): When a COD is cited, it must be determined within a reasonable level of medical certainty AND while it is true the ultimate end of life is no more O2 circulating within the body (so simplified folks!) the REAL CAUSE of WHY the O2 stopped might be some other reason other than the "traditional" suffocation (ie: allergic reaction to a bee sting! or in this case, ?Caylee aspirated vomitus and choked?, ?drowned? in the bath tub?, ?ate something?, ?cardiac issues?, ? overwhelming blood loss?...Get my drift), therefore "COD by uncertain means/undetermined means is appropriate".

This is one of those times where just because it looks like a "duck" doesn't mean one can legally call it a duck without investigation and facts to prove it a duck!
 

Reagan

New Member
Joined
May 26, 2009
Messages
919
Reaction score
1
joypath, thanks. I was going to say something along similar lines but had deleted my post.

It is obvious that the width, length, and layering of the duct tape would most certainly suffocate a child. Heck, that would suffocate me. The ME indeed has to know for a medical certainty to establish COD, and without any soft tissue or let alone any organs that is just impossible. I'm not sure why this keeps coming up.

I think it's extremely easy to establish homicide by the circumstances, the way the remains were found, the recovery site, etc. I would be leery if the report stated otherwise, that the means were determined and that was suffocation.

It will be apparent to a jury that there's a good chance that Caylee was suffocated via duct tape and other means regardless of the "homicide by undetermined means" conclusion from Dr. G.
 

watcher9

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
7,426
Reaction score
8,139
I will throw my personal experience out there to put things into perspective regarding the placement of duct tape on a live person. The duct tape was placed on me against my will by a man who escaped from prison and broke into my house. No need for I'm sorries as I have typed about this before and just want to put my perspective out here regarding this report. Measuring from 1/4 " from my bottom lip to cover the tip of my nose is 2 1/4 ". When my mouth was covered with the silver duct tape it was placed so that my mouth and the tip of my nose was covered and pulled tight into my hair. My hair is thick, long and naturally curly. Caylee's hair looked fine and rather thin. Once the tape was placed, I had to purse or pucker my lips to try to get some room to breathe. It was not easy. The tape can not be removed like a band aide where you can try to do the quick pull from side to side. What I had to do once I was cut loose was to pull the tape down around my chin and then stretched it to slide around my neck. My hair held the tape in place and it had to be cut out. It would be my assumption that because of Caylee's baby hair that the tape was able to adhere to her scalp and ear area. With the tape over my eyes, I could not see, but my forehead allowed the tape to rest on my cheekbones rather than stick to my eyes and eyelashes. Again, I could not remove it but rolled it up to my forehead and my hair had to be cut out to remove it. I think the tape could be the cause of death from my experience because I was 22 and had a hard time manipulating my lips to allow me to breathe. Poor Caylee didn't have a chance. Also, even if her hands were not bound I don't think she could remove the tape because 1. it hurts and 2. to find where to pull the tape off is quite difficult because you have to be strong enough to stretch the tape. Since Caylee is in a skeletonized state, I imagine the exact cause of death would be almost impossible to rule on involving soft tissue. The fact that an adult could survive having their face duct taped does not mean that an almost 3 year old child could survive the same. BJB is definitely on to something with the diagram of the tape placement IMO.


Thank you so much for sharing your terrifying story.
Because of it, I was able to better visualize how a small child could not remove any duct tape that was placed on them. A small child would automatically try to pull off the tape from the mouth/nose area where the duct tape is strong. A small child would not have the strength to stretch the tape to loosen it. A small child would not even think of going to the side of her head to get to the end of the tape to pull it off.
Caylee was a small child with a big heart.
Rest in peace dear dear child.
 

wenwe4

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
9,480
Reaction score
7,156
I vote we start a thread called "putting the pieces together" and include things like these posts pages from 16 - 18, the stain in the trunk posts that outline Caylee's body, stains on the bag posts, cell phone ping posts, etc. Everyone could add the best 2-3 pages of each thread for theory/explanations that actually have the ability to stand up in court. Just thinking we could put together a quick reference that wouldn't require reading through thousands of pages but just get down and dirty with our best WS theories. (Anyone agree?) Don't wanna get in big touble from the Mods for going OT if the topics include so many subjects. Not sure if it is even do-able but would be so informative for the 2 or 3 theories for each scenario for a quick reference.
 

Aedrys

If justice doesn't get you, karma will.
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Messages
6,719
Reaction score
17
Hang onto the logo-orientation for justabit. I re-oriented the divergent side to Caylee's left. Here you go.







I made it harder than it had to be :bang: LE flipped the Q63/64 over on its longest axis, effectively placing the "chin" at the bottom. You prolly sent me this pic originally, and I overlooked it...ran w/ the adhesive side image and started doin' spatial gymnastics...couldn't stick the landing though :bang:

Thanks!

Wow, Bond. From that last picture, it's as if Casey didn't want to see Caylee's entire face anymore. I had no idea that much of her face would have been covered up. It was like Casey was trying to erase Caylee's face from her mind with that duct tape. God, she must have woken up, couldn't breathe, couldn't see, and probably did try to pull if off but couldn't. God, that poor child...
 

Anais

New Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
1,465
Reaction score
5
Wow, Bond. From that last picture, it's as if Casey didn't want to see Caylee's entire face anymore. I had no idea that much of her face would have been covered up. It was like Casey was trying to erase Caylee's face from her mind with that duct tape. God, she must have woken up, couldn't breathe, couldn't see, and probably did try to pull if off but couldn't. God, that poor child...


Wow, that is incredibly horrendous! I am so ill just contemplating what Caylee must have lived through. I pray that she did not suffer. :furious:
 

BondJamesBond

Blunt Instrument
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
3,872
Reaction score
14
Wow, Bond. From that last picture, it's as if Casey didn't want to see Caylee's entire face anymore. I had no idea that much of her face would have been covered up. It was like Casey was trying to erase Caylee's face from her mind with that duct tape. God, she must have woken up, couldn't breathe, couldn't see, and probably did try to pull if off but couldn't. God, that poor child...

Wow, that is incredibly horrendous! I am so ill just contemplating what Caylee must have lived through. I pray that she did not suffer. :furious:

I haven't caught up on the thread yet. Just popped inside to grab a drink. Wanted to take the opportunity to comment.

:twocents:

We're starting to get to precisely the reason why I wanted to go through the "Tale of the Tape" a.k.a. sequence-of-the-duct-tape analysis. Not until I have more time...prolly later tonight, but, I think we can consider what this particular sequence of application may tell us. With one possible exception that I can think of...this sequence/scenario of application takes 1 of the 3 uses off the table. And, if that's the case, it means we can go down 2 branches of theories w/ more focus.

If you're interested in taking a run @ what comes off the table in the meantime, be my guest. ;)
 

beach

Verified Expert
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
18,372
Reaction score
4,535
I vote we start a thread called "putting the pieces together" and include things like these posts pages from 16 - 18, the stain in the trunk posts that outline Caylee's body, stains on the bag posts, cell phone ping posts, etc. Everyone could add the best 2-3 pages of each thread for theory/explanations that actually have the ability to stand up in court. Just thinking we could put together a quick reference that wouldn't require reading through thousands of pages but just get down and dirty with our best WS theories. (Anyone agree?) Don't wanna get in big touble from the Mods for going OT if the topics include so many subjects. Not sure if it is even do-able but would be so informative for the 2 or 3 theories for each scenario for a quick reference.


I totally respect your idea and wish to heck we could figure out a way this could be done. However, I don't have a clue without it becoming 'jumbled'. Actually, I thought about the same thing because since Bond posted his most recent findings, I feel I have more clarity and have ruled out certain theories that I once considered. So, I have been jumping between this thread, the Theory #7 thread, the ping threads, depos, reports, etc... Finally, I just decided to start putting my thoughts down in a word doc - I listed things I feel confident of, things I feel pretty darn sure of, those that I have ruled out completely and, in addition, I have included questions that I need to sleuth or ask those more 'in the know' that would help me in formulating a final theory. It has helped me focus more, organized my thoughts and eliminated a lot of distractions. (I can easily get distracted :rolleyes: ) I even made notations of thread links & post#'s that supported why/how I made my conclusions. :loser: There is so much info scattered through the forums/threads/posts - for me, I would never find it again if I didn't organize it in some way.

I do LOVE your idea though. If any mod can figure out a way it could be done, that would be the icing on the cake.
 

wenwe4

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
9,480
Reaction score
7,156
I totally respect your idea and wish to heck we could figure out a way this could be done. However, I don't have a clue without it becoming 'jumbled'. Actually, I thought about the same thing because since Bond posted his most recent findings, I feel I have more clarity and have ruled out certain theories that I once considered. So, I have been jumping between this thread, the Theory #7 thread, the ping threads, depos, reports, etc... Finally, I just decided to start putting my thoughts down in a word doc - I listed things I feel confident of, things I feel pretty darn sure of, those that I have ruled out completely and, in addition, I have included questions that I need to sleuth or ask those more 'in the know' that would help me in formulating a final theory. It has helped me focus more, organized my thoughts and eliminated a lot of distractions. (I can easily get distracted :rolleyes: ) I even made notations of thread links & post#'s that supported why/how I made my conclusions. :loser: There is so much info scattered through the forums/threads/posts - for me, I would never find it again if I didn't organize it in some way.

I do LOVE your idea though. If any mod can figure out a way it could be done, that would be the icing on the cake.

Some sort of "the best of WS'rs work" - maybe even incorporating a "decision tree" of sorts (ie: if this - then this could be probable; or if not this - then this could be probable). I have no idea how techy people could do this (I am really far on the other end of the continuum - in the lunatic fringe of no hope to be a techy sort of person). It just seems a shame that all of this incredible work (ie: BJB's duct tape analysis - to name just one) is hidden (buried) in the many thousands of pages of reading to find the "jewels". (Unless someone keeps bringing specific posts forward each page).
 

beach

Verified Expert
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
18,372
Reaction score
4,535
Some sort of "the best of WS'rs work" - maybe even incorporating a "decision tree" of sorts (ie: if this - then this could be probable; or if not this - then this could be probable). I have no idea how techy people could do this (I am really far on the other end of the continuum - in the lunatic fringe of no hope to be a techy sort of person). It just seems a shame that all of this incredible work (ie: BJB's duct tape analysis - to name just one) is hidden (buried) in the many thousands of pages of reading to find the "jewels". (Unless someone keeps bringing specific posts forward each page).

I went snooping around in the Resource forum 'cause I recalled an old thread that Muzikman had started about something similar.

Check out the thread linked below (only 3 pgs.) and see if you think some of the suggestions posted there might work. We probably should continue this brainstorming over there so we don't get toooo O/T, until we can figure out a way to incorporate. At the very least, there are some tech savvy peeps posting on that thread that might be able to help us out. If you think the suggestions posted there might be too broad, maybe we could pm one of the active members to help us come up with another idea.

Feel free to pm me with your thoughts after checking it out!

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90709"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90709[/ame]
 

rotterdam

New Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
1,999
Reaction score
8
For what it is worth, I have used lots of duct tape in the past. I use it on winter boxes for feral cats. Duct tape will not stick to a greasy and/or wet surface based on my experience. Therefor I suspect the duct tape was not used postmortem IMO ofcourse.
 

ynotdivein

Retired WS Staff
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
11,425
Reaction score
53
Great Scott, Sleuthers! Had to take one day off and returned to pages and pages of brilliance to catch up on in this thread alone.

AZ you are right--this thread is getting hard to read. Yet I have great faith that means we are on the right track, doing right work. :grouphug:

After reading all the new posts I did have to step away from the computer for a bit as I was in a grim, grim headspace. Don't know if this happens to any of you, but when I step away to "give myself space," all too often that space just allows me to keep thinking about the case. And so with teeth gritted I submit this theory:

100/104 was placed first, covering the eyes.

Then 64 which connected on one end to 100 if I am reading correctly. Then 63, then 62.

I had never considered that she would tape Caylee's eyes first. Perhaps I am just horribly misreading in my haste?
 

beach

Verified Expert
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
18,372
Reaction score
4,535
Great Scott, Sleuthers! Had to take one day off and returned to pages and pages of brilliance to catch up on in this thread alone.

AZ you are right--this thread is getting hard to read. Yet I have great faith that means we are on the right track, doing right work. :grouphug:

After reading all the new posts I did have to step away from the computer for a bit as I was in a grim, grim headspace. Don't know if this happens to any of you, but when I step away to "give myself space," all too often that space just allows me to keep thinking about the case. And so with teeth gritted I submit this theory:

100/104 was placed first, covering the eyes.

Then 64 which connected on one end to 100 if I am reading correctly. Then 63, then 62.

I had never considered that she would tape Caylee's eyes first. Perhaps I am just horribly misreading in my haste?

ynot, I think according to Bond's theory it went:

Q64 ---> Q100 --->Q63 --->Q62

You're certainly not alone in having to step away from this thread to get some "head space" and find yourself still haunted by it. :hug:
 

ynotdivein

Retired WS Staff
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
11,425
Reaction score
53
ynot, I think according to Bond's theory it went:

Q64 ---> Q100 --->Q63 --->Q62

You're certainly not alone in having to step away from this thread to get some "head space" and find yourself still haunted by it. :hug:

:hug: back atcha beach, and many thanks.

As far as the actual order of events, I just can't fathom KC putting tape over the mouth first (64), then covering the eyes (100), then going back to the mouth (63-62)...

...unless...

who was that upward in this thread that said it so succinctly--KC in a rage. Rip, place. Rip, place. Oh you're still making noise? Rip, place, rip, place.

:furious:
 
Top