2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

beach

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:hug: back atcha beach, and many thanks.

As far as the actual order of events, I just can't fathom KC putting tape over the mouth first (64), then covering the eyes (100), then going back to the mouth (63-62)...

...unless...

who was that upward in this thread that said it so succinctly--KC in a rage. Rip, place. Rip, place. Oh you're still making noise? Rip, place, rip, place.

:furious:

I think that was Mamabear, in post #389. Like many others on this thread, that post gave me chills.
 

BondJamesBond

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Great Scott, Sleuthers! Had to take one day off and returned to pages and pages of brilliance to catch up on in this thread alone.

AZ you are right--this thread is getting hard to read. Yet I have great faith that means we are on the right track, doing right work. :grouphug:

After reading all the new posts I did have to step away from the computer for a bit as I was in a grim, grim headspace. Don't know if this happens to any of you, but when I step away to "give myself space," all too often that space just allows me to keep thinking about the case. And so with teeth gritted I submit this theory:
*snipped*

You're certainly not alone, Ynot. And this sentiment reminds me of the brilliant thread you started [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101538"]here[/ame].

100/104 was placed first, covering the eyes.

Then 64 which connected on one end to 100 if I am reading correctly. Then 63, then 62.

I had never considered that she would tape Caylee's eyes first. Perhaps I am just horribly misreading in my haste?
*snipped*

ynot, I think according to Bond's theory it went:

Q64 ---> Q100 --->Q63 --->Q62
*snipped*

Thanks, Beach. That's the order the tape came off of the roll, IMHO, per the analysis. And, while it isn't impossible that the taper tore off all 4 pieces at once THEN applied them...with 3 of the 4 being applied on top of each other in the same sequence that they came off the roll it certainly suggests to me that it is very likely they came off the roll [email protected] I'm explaining this to acknowledge what ynot proposed isn't impossible...it would only require a [email protected] mechanism IYKWIM.

BTW...perhaps worth noting that I had no idea...zero...what segments were placed in what order on the skull when I started this analysis. I DID know that one piece of Henkel was found away from the other three. I DIDN'T know which one it was, but I DID know that there was speculation this lone piece might've been used to bind Caylee's hand. I DID know there was a logo pattern, and for some time I wanted to do the matching analysis. I thought the logo analysis would be harder because I had very briefly - and I mean very briefly - looked @ the FBI pics of the cleaned & straightened segments and only remembered seeing maybe one logo. It was for this reason that I asked AZ & JWG to do the scission exercise. I thought besides helping us to determine if Casey had used the knife to cut the tape we might learn something more about matching the characteristics of two torn tape edges that were known to have come from each other...and i thought this would be needed ALONG WITH the logo analysis to be more definitive. And so...I headed into the logo thing w/ sorta low expectations and without a pre-disposed (no pun intended) notion of what the results *needed* to be in order to agree with what I now know about the layering sequence. Last admission...I DID have a hope that the piece found away from the skull wouldn't be either first or last...because I knew that result would be more telling, IMHO. So...without trying to sound like I'm boasting...the Q64=>Q104=>Q63=>Q62 sequence was actually very easy to determine once I created the 'virtual' tool. There were plenty of logos on the tape...they were easy to find...and the result synched extremely well with what I later learned the as-found layering to be.
 

ynotdivein

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Oh gah, just ran across this--post 97 on thread "The Single Piece of Henkel Duct Tape Found NOT on remains":

Posted the following on the George deposition thread, but I think it should be discussed here:

Page 270 (George deposition) has an interesting question.

George is asked whether or not Caylee could pull Velcro apart. George does not know - has not seen her do it, but possible. He was also asked about manual dexterity and whether or not she was able to button / un-button things as well as snap and unsnap things.

I think I know why Ashton asked that question. Pulling Velcro apart is about as difficult as pulling duct tape off a surface, like skin. We know from the latest dump (an FBI email) that the SA is looking to do a computer 3D graphic showing the tape over Caylee's mouth and nose. I'm thinking the SA believes KC did this to suffocate Caylee.

It's possible the lone piece of Henkel's tape (Q-100) that was found away from the skull is the one piece of tape Caylee was able to remove before she died. It is damaged on one end. Folks have hypothesized it was due to animals. I think the SA believes it was due to Caylee clawing at it. :cry:

P. 10265 (from the last dump) has a picture of the tape.

Prescient much, JWG?
 

beach

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For clarity to avoid any confusion -

the pieces of tape identified as Q100 and Q104 are the SAME PIECES OF TAPE. Somehow they were assigned two evidence #'s. I forget why/how - but I know that has been verified.
 

Aedrys

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Oh gah, just ran across this--post 97 on thread "The Single Piece of Henkel Duct Tape Found NOT on remains":



Prescient much, JWG? :bow:

I have to applaud all of you smart, brilliant WS'ers for your hard work, but at the same time, after reading this thread, and realizing how horrible this really was, I am the saddest I have ever been in this case. Dear God, if the prosecution can present it like this at trial...Casey is so so SO very dead...and I think her punishment should be having her face duct taped up and then she's thrown in a swamp to rot...

What makes me even sicker is that Casey had to have known that Caylee pulled that one piece off, and didn't care. She just threw Caylee and the lone piece of duct tape that fell off into those bags and tossed her into the swamp to rot. She KNEW Caylee suffered and didn't give a CRAP about it...she is beyond evil. She has no soul. She is as inhuman as one can possibly get. I am feeling so nauseous right now...
 

BondJamesBond

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For clarity to avoid any confusion -

the pieces of tape identified as Q100 and Q104 are the SAME PIECES OF TAPE. Somehow they were assigned two evidence #'s. I forget why/how - but I know that has been verified.

Thanks, again, Beach. And I've just contributed to the confusion further by using Q100 moreso than Q104. :bang: Q100 was the designation given by OCSO, while Q104 was the designation given it by the FBI.

I'll try to consistently use Q104 going forward.
 

ynotdivein

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Thanks, again, Beach. And I've just contributed to the confusion further by using Q100 moreso than Q104. :bang: Q100 was the designation given by OCSO, while Q104 was the designation given it by the FBI.

I'll try to consistently use Q104 going forward.

Signing on to same pact with audible sigh of relief. :innocent:
 

BondJamesBond

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Sorry I didn't get to this earlier. Got wrapped up in something else. So this'll be brief:

Thus far, IMHO, there have been 3 basic scenarios for the purpose of the duct tape:

1) To keep Caylee quiet should she awake from sedation
2) The method of murder
3) Post-mortem application to:
a) To stem decomp or,
b) As a psychological death mask
c) To stage a kidnapping​

Without much elaboration, perhaps the Q64=>Q104=>Q63=>Q62 sequence takes purpose #1 off the table. It appears to me the application was [email protected]once, which included covering the nostrils (and speculate the eyes). IF this is correct, then, the purpose of the tape was either 2 or 3, IMHO.
 

thedeviledadvocate

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Sorry I didn't get to this earlier. Got wrapped up in something else. So this'll be brief:

Thus far, IMHO, there have been 3 basic scenarios for the purpose of the duct tape:

1) To keep Caylee quiet should she awake from sedation
2) The method of murder
3) Post-mortem application to:
a) To stem decomp or,
b) As a psychological death mask
c) To stage a kidnapping​

Without much elaboration, perhaps the Q64=>Q104=>Q63=>Q62 sequence takes purpose #1 off the table. It appears to me the application was [email protected], which included covering the nostrils (and speculate the eyes). IF this is correct, then, the purpose of the tape was either 2 or 3, IMHO.

BJB, thanks for all the time you spend trying to help us all figure out what actually happened in this case. Although your recap does not do justice to all the work you have done, I agree that scenarios 1, 2 or 3 will prove to be the most likely scenarios behind the purpose of the tape. IMHO
 

wenwe4

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Sorry I didn't get to this earlier. Got wrapped up in something else. So this'll be brief:

Thus far, IMHO, there have been 3 basic scenarios for the purpose of the duct tape:

1) To keep Caylee quiet should she awake from sedation
2) The method of murder
3) Post-mortem application to:
a) To stem decomp or,
b) As a psychological death mask
c) To stage a kidnapping​

Without much elaboration, perhaps the Q64=>Q104=>Q63=>Q62 sequence takes purpose #1 off the table. It appears to me the application was [email protected], which included covering the nostrils (and speculate the eyes). IF this is correct, then, the purpose of the tape was either 2 or 3, IMHO.


ITA! I now am wondering if the tape over the eyes didn't stick because
1) Not enough surface to stick to if not pressed over the eye socket area.
2) Tears and/or fluids prevented the tape from sticking

I think if a child was suffocating - natural instincts would have her pulling the tape from her nose and mouth first - before her eyes. It could be that this was the only piece of tape not stuck down by other pieces of tape so it was easier for the animals to peel one edge up.

For me, this brings much more credence to the taping happening while Caylee was not physically fighting/thrashing/moving or the tape would be crumpled and it was smoothly laid out over her nose and mouth. It seems to me it is much easier to dump the "faceless" when you have a cold heart. I think the taping was done to protect KC - not anything more.
 

countzero

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Light bulb moment here. I am now pondering the fact that not only the placement of the tape indicated extreme rage, but far more. The tape was pressed against Caylee's head with enough force that it actually stuck into clumps of her long flowing hair.

I guess my sub conscience always knew this, my brain just connected with it. Ugh .. gotta hug my little ones now.
 

beach

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Sorry I didn't get to this earlier. Got wrapped up in something else. So this'll be brief:

Thus far, IMHO, there have been 3 basic scenarios for the purpose of the duct tape:

1) To keep Caylee quiet should she awake from sedation
2) The method of murder
3) Post-mortem application to:
a) To stem decomp or,
b) As a psychological death mask
c) To stage a kidnapping​

Without much elaboration, perhaps the Q64=>Q104=>Q63=>Q62 sequence takes purpose #1 off the table. It appears to me the application was [email protected], which included covering the nostrils (and speculate the eyes). IF this is correct, then, the purpose of the tape was either 2 or 3, IMHO.

BBM

Okay, I'm not quite ready to totally disregard purpose #1. fwiw, I AM ready to set my emotional reasons aside (thanks in part to a personal post #148 by okiedokietoo on the Theory #7 thread :blowkiss:). However, there are several evidentiary stumbling blocks that need to be cleared up for me.

Specifically this snippet of JWG's post (linked below) in the Theory #7 thread concerning the chloroform levels.

--respectfully snipped for emphasis
But then that final report came out telling us the positive control sample (dead-baby blanket from Montana) had zero chloroform and that the levels found in Casey's trunk were a million times higher than normally found with a decomposing adult. :eek: On top of that, Dr. Vass's emails with OCSO showed he was clearly alarmed by the chloroform levels and suspected a not-so-innocent explanation. :eek: As hard as it might be to believe, the science seems to indicate chloroform really was used on Caylee to put her to sleep that night.

The question comes up time and again though, if chloroform were used to knock Caylee out, was it somehow spilled in the trunk? The signature is missing from the car's interior and from the white garbage bag. The high levels are found only in the trunk. Why?

Using a not-so-new thought to tie the above together, it is probable that chloroform was applied to something that comforted Caylee as she went to sleep - the Winnie the Pooh blanket. Clearly OCSO and the FBI felt that it was applied to something that comforted her, because they tested both the car seat and her "mama" doll, :sleuth: coming up negative. I don't recall seeing a test on the blanket, but given it lay in a swamp for 6 months I doubt they'd find anything.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5130902&postcount=68"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5130902&postcount=68[/ame]


If I understand it correctly, the ONLY evidence of chloroform was found in the trunk. (I know there was speculation about the syringe/Gatorade bottle, but I can't recall any confirmation :waitasec:) IMO, the high levels are there for SOME reason and I find JWG's theory about the blanket very plausible. I agree that after sitting in the FL heat & swampy elements for 6 months any test would come up negative. So, unless some scientific specialist can convince me otherwise, that means nada to me. So, I need someone to explain to me why the massive chloroform levels exist in the trunk AT ALL, before I can disregard #1. I realize this thread is about the duct tape and not chloroform, so if someone can help me out and wants to post it in another thread, just give me the directions and I will follow behind.



Now, my next request is not in re. challenging any of the scenarios Bond proposed, but moreso to get clarity regarding the condition of Q104. In fact, it probably supports Bond's theory #2 and Jeff Ashton's compelling description of the SA's theory of COD. I am referring to the quote that ynot posted by JWG. I would love to hear more input. (I realize this was posted back in Oct. '09, so please advise me if your opinion has changed, JWG.)

Posted the following on the George deposition thread, but I think it should be discussed here:

Page 270 (George deposition) has an interesting question.

George is asked whether or not Caylee could pull Velcro apart. George does not know - has not seen her do it, but possible. He was also asked about manual dexterity and whether or not she was able to button / un-button things as well as snap and unsnap things.

I think I know why Ashton asked that question. Pulling Velcro apart is about as difficult as pulling duct tape off a surface, like skin. We know from the latest dump (an FBI email) that the SA is looking to do a computer 3D graphic showing the tape over Caylee's mouth and nose. I'm thinking the SA believes KC did this to suffocate Caylee.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4298891&postcount=97"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4298891&postcount=97[/ame]



As to proposed scenario #3 (a) - I threw that one out the window a long, long time ago and it is going to take a HUGE LEAP for me to be able to remotely consider that the tape was the instrument KC decided upon to use to contain the decomp fluids. Without boring everyone to death by elaborating on my reasons AGAIN, briefly: 1) I don't think decomp fluids even occurred to Casey Anthony, especially at the time she murdered Caylee (unless one of you guys can show me where she googled it ;) ); 2) the trash bags and lined laundry bag she chose to use as a disrespectful casket served the purpose just fine, even though I doubt Casey even realized it. Oh, I could go on forever about why I don't believe this scenario is even plausible, but this post is long enough already. I'll just refer to various observations made by AZLawyer throughout several threads, quote logicalgirl's and LambChop's observations on this thread posts #418 & #419, respectively and call it a day.

But if it was done pre-decomp as the ME has declared - what killer thinks about fluids leaking immediately after the murder? That's where I keep getting stuck on this - no way would I think after I killed someone - well gee, now what to do about the fluids. Not trying to be a smart azz but honestly I wouldn't in a million years have that thought.



--respectfully snipped for subject matter

I hate to write this but upon death everything is your system purges out. The face is the least of your worries. It would have been faster to put her in a bag then sit there and tear four pieces of tape to tape over those areas. Plus ears have canals, too.

jmo


In re. 3 (b) & (c) - I dunno. It is still a stretch for me believing the tape was applied post-mortem. But, those 2 options I can remain open-minded about.
 

beach

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ITA! I now am wondering if the tape over the eyes didn't stick because
1) Not enough surface to stick to if not pressed over the eye socket area.
2) Tears and/or fluids prevented the tape from sticking

I think if a child was suffocating - natural instincts would have her pulling the tape from her nose and mouth first - before her eyes. It could be that this was the only piece of tape not stuck down by other pieces of tape so it was easier for the animals to peel one edge up.

For me, this brings much more credence to the taping happening while Caylee was not physically fighting/thrashing/moving or the tape would be crumpled and it was smoothly laid out over her nose and mouth. It seems to me it is much easier to dump the "faceless" when you have a cold heart. I think the taping was done to protect KC - not anything more.

BBM

Great observations!!!

in re. the portion I bolded, why do you think Caylee was not thrashing about? Was she already dead by this point? If so, how? Was she sedated?
 

beach

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Sorry I didn't get to this earlier. Got wrapped up in something else. So this'll be brief:

Thus far, IMHO, there have been 3 basic scenarios for the purpose of the duct tape:

1) To keep Caylee quiet should she awake from sedation
2) The method of murder

3) Post-mortem application to:
a) To stem decomp or,
b) As a psychological death mask
c) To stage a kidnapping​

Without much elaboration, perhaps the Q64=>Q104=>Q63=>Q62 sequence takes purpose #1 off the table. It appears to me the application was [email protected], which included covering the nostrils (and speculate the eyes). IF this is correct, then, the purpose of the tape was either 2 or 3, IMHO.

BBM

Do scenarios #1 and #2 HAVE to be exclusive? I mean couldn't KC have wrapped Caylee in a blanket soaked in chloroform, knocking her unconcious and THEN taped her entire face? That would explain her not thrashing around and the precisely layed pieces of duct tape.

Honestly, I am ready to accept #2, if only someone could explain away the chloroform levels in the trunk. :banghead:

It could be something as simple as Casey kept it in the trunk and used it many times before as a sick sort of sedative when she wanted to go out and party and the bottle spilled in the trunk. I just need to understand why the astronomical levels are there at all.
 

BondJamesBond

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BBM

Do scenarios #1 and #2 HAVE to be exclusive? I mean couldn't KC have wrapped Caylee in a blanket soaked in chloroform, knocking her unconcious and THEN taped her entire face? That would explain her not thrashing around and the precisely layed pieces of duct tape.

Honestly, I am ready to accept #2, if only someone could explain away the chloroform levels in the trunk. :banghead:

It could be something as simple as Casey kept it in the trunk and used it many times before as a sick sort of sedative when she wanted to go out and party and the bottle spilled in the trunk. I just need to understand why the astronomical levels are there at all.

IMHO, I distinguished #1 from #2 by intent.

#1 was a stoopid mistake. Just wanted to get away for awhile and needed some insurance that Caylee wouldn't attract attention if/when she awoke from sedation (of any kind)

#2 was 110% intentional. Placed the tape & ensured no further breathing. Done & meant to do it.

Yes - you can kluge together variations on these (e.g. sedated first, then, place Q63 over the nostrils...but, I tried to keep it simple...which has me thinking Q63 going over the nostrils in very short succession to Q64 going over the mouth...meant it to be over...whether sedation was involved or not...."blue on black".

BTW...just another reason I hold AZ in such high regard :thumb:. She just showed me Q62 isn't a great match to follow Q63. So....more homework for me. I had no clue :doh: some of the logos were much easier to see from the backside of the tape. Valhall used these images in her analysis...so will hafta see how this all shakes out. Just FYI.

And to throw in one more random comment into a single post. :bang: We'd prolly have to launch another thread on asphyxia to educate ourselves on this subject and consider how it might play into placing duct tape as THE method of murder, vs. combination w/ sedation, etc. Just a suggestion.
 

beach

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IMHO, I distinguished #1 from #2 by intent.

#1 was a stoopid mistake. Just wanted to get away for awhile and needed some insurance that Caylee wouldn't attract attention if/when she awoke from sedation (of any kind)

#2 was 110% intentional. Placed the tape & ensured no further breathing. Done & meant to do it.

Yes - you can kluge together variations on these (e.g. sedated first, then, place Q63 over the nostrils...but, I tried to keep it simple...which has me thinking Q63 going over the nostrils in very short succession to Q64 going over the mouth...meant it to be over...whether sedation was involved or not...."blue on black".

BTW...just another reason I hold AZ in such high regard :thumb:. She just showed me Q62 isn't a great match to follow Q63. So....more homework for me. I had no clue :doh: some of the logos were much easier to see from the backside of the tape. Valhall used these images in her analysis...so will hafta see how this all shakes out. Just FYI.

And to throw in one more random comment into a single post. :bang: We'd prolly have to launch another thread on asphyxia to educate ourselves on this subject and consider how it might play into placing duct tape as THE method of murder, vs. combination w/ sedation, etc. Just a suggestion.


BBM

Ohhhhhh! OKAY! Gotcha!

In that case - YES! I am all about excluding #1 (aka stoopid mistake) totally. Tossed out. Kaput, in my book.
 

wenwe4

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BBM

Great observations!!!

in re. the portion I bolded, why do you think Caylee was not thrashing about? Was she already dead by this point? If so, how? Was she sedated?

Thanks! (since you asked) I think she was incapacitated by sleeping either short term or "forever". I honestly think kc didn't tape this baby's face to cover up her crimes - but really it was more about not having to "face" her own crimes. If she could cover Caylee's face with a death mask - she would not have to look at the harm she had caused her own flesh and blood. I think it was about helping KC to cope while triple bagging her dead daughter. If she did try to contain fluids - I think it was a day or two later when she came upon the fluids, not immediately after causing her death. I think KC chloroformed Caylee w/the blanket and put her in the trunk to catch a few zzzzzzzzz's (Zany the Nanny). I think she did not discover that Caylee had perished until she snuck out late that night to check on the baby. When she figured out Caylee had passed away, she just put herself in "clean-up mode" and did whatever she could to protect herself from having to look at her baby in the face while she bagged and later dumped her. At least this seems to be my theory today based upon the clues I have picked up by recent phenomenal works submitted by talented people. I could be way off - just my speculations.
 

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Trying not to stray too far over into "theory" space, but...when it comes to factoring in Caylee's potential ability to remove duct tape herself...

FWIW...consider that a child's car seat can readily become a means to restrain their arms with almost no effort @ all. I cringe @ the thought.
 

beach

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And to throw in one more random comment into a single post. :bang: We'd prolly have to launch another thread on asphyxia to educate ourselves on this subject and consider how it might play into placing duct tape as THE method of murder, vs. combination w/ sedation, etc. Just a suggestion.

Give me about an hour and I will be glad to do it, so that this thread stays true to the duct tape only.

I've gotta run take a quick exam and take care of a couple of personal responsibilities, then I will be back online.

So, please ignore and resist responding to the chloroform chat coming from me for now and hold any thoughts so we can discuss it in the new thread.
 

wenwe4

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Trying not to stray too far over into "theory" space, but...when it comes to factoring in Caylee's potential ability to remove duct tape herself...

FWIW...consider that a child's car seat can readily become a means to restrain their arms with almost no effort @ all. I cringe @ the thought.

I suppose that someone could restrain a child's arms in a carseat - but they are not normally restrained - just their chest and body. Even if Caylee were sitting in a carseat - I remember many times trying to wipe a runny nose and getting a thrashing child - trying to avoid the tissue. I would imagine that even if Caylee were awake and aware when she was taped with the first piect she would certainly fight off the second and third and fourth. This would be an autonomic nervous system response - not just a defiant child response (like the tissue wiping scenario) or possibly a child with PTSD from too harsh of wipings (god forbid). Anyway - just throwing this out there for speculation.
 
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