2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

logicalgirl

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Hi logicalgirl! This question came up earlier in this thread (post #463 and thereabouts) and AFAIK we are inconclusive about it.



Harmony this is from your post #101 on the "The Single Piece of Henkel Duct Tape found away from the remains" thread:

FBI defines fringe hair as:
Quote:
Fringe Hairs
Hairs originating from areas of the body outside those specifically designated as head or pubic are generally not suitable for significant comparison purposes. These hairs might originate from the neck, sideburns, abdomen, upper leg, and back.

Other Body Area Hairs
Axillary (underarm) hairs, chest hairs, eye hairs, and nose hairs are not routinely compared. As with limb hairs and fringe hairs, their presence may help to corroborate information obtained during an investigation.
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backis...0/deedric1.htm


Which to me sounds like FBI considers limb and fringe hair to be different animals...

Oh good - was afraid I would literally get shot down from the sky with that question. I recall a conversation a while back when I suggested that but was pretty much booed out of the joint LOL, because the majority of the posters thought it would get mucked up, and yet I do the tearing and holding first for exactly that reason. But I've accepted my dyslexic brain does give different orders than the norm. Will check out that thread and see if it is the same. Thanks for your kind response however.
 

logicalgirl

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I was wondering if Casey was wearing short shorts and placed the edges of the duct tape on her leg.... maybe? :waitasec: Might be too far fetched...

Since some pieces were 9 inches long they would probably fold and stick to each other. Nah :snooty:

The fringe hair on Q104 has puzzled me for a while...

I think (well I know) that clear packing tape does roll back, but I was reminded that I also do tape this way when I watched a plumber do that with eight pieces of duct tape this morning - ripped it off, stuck it on his arm and whipped it up onto the sheet he was taping to the ceiling. Says he doesn't have time to cut each piece if it is a water emergency. His tape just had a curl at the end of it and hung there.
 

joypath

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I am looking for an order to seal, not a report. I am looking for reports from Csi Bloise and Steve Hanson. thanks


FYI: You'll probably NOT find any report(s) from Steve Hanson as those documents are considered work product/bench notes per se within the process of the post mortem evaluation. Information contained within may be referenced, included, "postered", charted and otherwise discussed during the trial process as presented by the SA's witnesses.
 

beach

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Now, Casey didn't have the gas can as far as we know until June 23, and presumably taped Caylee's face before that (pre-death by June 16 or very very early in decomp process, i.e., immediately thereafter). So perhaps George put the tape on the gas can after all, even if he described it as a "sloppy job" (which it wasn't). If George ALWAYS kept tape on that vent, as he says, then presumably there was already a piece there when Casey picked it up on June 23.

I'll go there and say straight up that I think GA is lying in his depo about placing that tape on the gas can. After the Sunday afternoon I spent with GA and his depo :bang: - the biggest red flags were his numerous, ""I most definetly recall" , "I am absolutely positive" and "I have NO IDEA how that duct tape got there!!" --- the WHOLE TONE of his depo changed drastically when discussing that "sloppy job" of taping of the gas cans. It was very obvious and it was the only time in his depo when he became extremely defensive. It is my humble opinion that GA: 1) could not handle the thought that the very duct tape he owned and was the same tape that was found on Caylee's face; and 2) he was attempting to do damage control. I think it was his way of trying to make up as best he could for his recorded statements incriminating KC with LE and his Grand Jury testimony. That duct tape haunts GA.

I wish I had a better description of where Q62 was on the skull. I think if it were on top of (and especially if it were underneath) Q64-Q63, it would have had the same big bulge seen in those pieces, and probably would have been removed and photographed as a "set" like they were. My guess, based on the flatness and longer length of that piece, is that it went from ear to ear across the nose. :( On a small skull with no nose, that positioning could easily be described as being in the "mouth area" as reported at the scene, and also as being over the "nasal apertures" as reported by the ME.

BBM

I get your point, but it's not the 'bulge' that bothers me so much, however I totally agree that the rest of the part I bolded is plausible and an excellent hypothesis.

So I would suggest another possibility: perhaps George placed Q66 on the gas can, then Casey placed Missing Piece over Caylee's mouth and Q62 over her nose, then Casey came back and found out that Caylee had managed to remove/chew at/scrunch up Missing Piece so she could breathe, then Casey tossed Missing Piece and used Q104 around Caylee's forearms to stop her from doing that anymore, Q64 on her mouth, and Q63 diagonally and partway under her chin to keep her from moving her jaw and breathing around the edges of the tape. :furious: This would be consistent with the "fringe hairs" and possible T-shirt fibers on Q104.

The T-shirt fibers have always bothered me. I think of those fibers often. I think they have a story to tell. Just not quite sure what it is yet.

I'm tired and this may be an obvious question (heaven knows it isn't my first and won't be the last...) but which piece exactly are you referring to as the 'Missing Piece'? Also, which Q# was it we were looking at one day where we opined that it appeared Caylee may have 'chewed'...?
 

notthatsmart

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FYI: You'll probably NOT find any report(s) from Steve Hanson as those documents are considered work product/bench notes per se within the process of the post mortem evaluation. Information contained within may be referenced, included, "postered", charted and otherwise discussed during the trial process as presented by the SA's witnesses.

Thank you for that information. So, we wont get his take until trial. Csi Welch and Supervisor Mears stated that Hanson took photos. I do not understand why some can consider it work product and others clearly just write a report. I think he should have written a report like most did. He moved the log, he collected the remains and evidence, he cut and tied back vines. His report would be very helpful in finding the truth. I hope he doesn't throw away his bench notes like the evidence garage guy did. Thank you for letting me know this.
 

Sdavidson11

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Was checking through the thread but didn't see this question, or rather the answer to this question. Would the order matter if she ripped off four pieces before she even started? I do that even with duct tape and stick them at the edge to my arm so I can do the task faster, without having to tear off each piece.

Just for reference once again on a surviving duct taped person that I am, the perp that duct taped me had the tape for my face already cut. However, when he tied my arms and legs to the posts he used the roll, wrapped it tight, and then use his knife to cut it. I am sure there are many ways to do this but for efficiency sake I think this makes the most sense. Again, no need for I am sorry what happened. I find this thread most interesting and hope Caylee will get the justice she deserves.
 

logicalgirl

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Just for reference once again on a surviving duct taped person that I am, the perp that duct taped me had the tape for my face already cut. However, when he tied my arms and legs to the posts he used the roll, wrapped it tight, and then use his knife to cut it. I am sure there are many ways to do this but for efficiency sake I think this makes the most sense. Again, no need for I am sorry what happened. I find this thread most interesting and hope Caylee will get the justice she deserves.

Thanks for adding that - I don't think I knew how the duct pate on your arms and legs was applied. But yes, would agree, to me the round and round would be the fastest way. Interesting he had the first piece already cut. And when you mention his knife - it sounds like he had a dangerous kind of knife - like a sharp pocket knife or something like that?
 

beach

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hey guys :)

I am sitting on my hands. Truthfully. And, boy do I ever understand the temptation to respond to OT...uh... chit-chat. ;) <pun intended>

However, this thread is near and dear to me --- almost sacred. :angel:
I honestly feel that this thread contains some of the best work ever done by Ws'ers as far as leading us down the path to finding out what really happened to precious 2 1/2 yr. old Caylee, whom we all have grown to love.

I am certainly no mod, just someone who cares alot about protecting the integrity of this thread. So, I would much appreciate it if we can try not to 'contaminate the scene', so to speak. ;) That never seems to work out well for LE, and I doubt it will for us either, IFYKWIM.

Sorry if I am coming across as bossy, I don't mean to. I just really want to respect the hard work that so many people have invested.
 

AZlawyer

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I'm tired and this may be an obvious question (heaven knows it isn't my first and won't be the last...) but which piece exactly are you referring to as the 'Missing Piece'? Also, which Q# was it we were looking at one day where we opined that it appeared Caylee may have 'chewed'...?

Going back to my 2 posts right before we completely stopped talking about duct tape on this thread: :crazy:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5177708&postcount=486"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5177708&postcount=486[/ame]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5177768&postcount=487"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5177768&postcount=487[/ame]

My proposed order of tape based on logo placement, etc. is:

1. Q66 (gas can)--probably placed by George sometime before June 16.

2. "The Missing Piece"--at least one piece has to be missing from the sequence, and this is the most logical place for it to go--could have been used by George prior to June 16, or could have been the first piece used on Caylee if, as detailed in my first post above, Caylee was able to damage/remove that piece because the chloroform was not as successful as Casey had hoped (based on her research of watching General Hospital lol) at keeping Caylee knocked out.

3. Q62 (possibly over nose).

4. Q104 (possibly on forearms although that depends on whether forearm hair is "fringe hair").

5. Q64 (over mouth).

6. Q63 (diagonally over mouth and perhaps under the chin somewhat).

The one we were talking about looking a little "chewed" in the middle on the inside was Q64.
 

beach

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Thanks much, AZ! Great thinking and sleuthing. I 'get' most of what you are suggesting. Truth is, I just finished taking my last final tonight and I think I will be able to connect all the dots you layed out tomorrow when my mind is a bit fresher. lol

I look forward to a fresh mind! :D
 

A_News_Junkie

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AZ, somewhere I saw a video, not sure who took it, of a roll of Henkel Duct Tape, in a plastic container that belonged to George and Cindy, sitting on a table at a help find a missing Caylee site, but I have not located it yet. It might show what you are looking for as well. I have often wondered if it is the very same roll KC used on Caylee.

Is 1:12 ish the roll you are thinking of? http://www.clickorlando.com/video/22584510/index.html
 

BondJamesBond

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Thanks, Beach. :thumb:

I'd like to encourage everyone to simply be respectful of the many other members that wanna follow the thread topic specifically w/o reading through a page of OT musings.

There's nothing wrong w/ a question that runs tangential to the thread topic...I do that all the time myself. Just recognize it for what it is. And if you have a response that can tackle it in a single post and direct the question to the appropriate thread to have the follow-up discussion - that's great. But, please don't contribute to spinning further & further OT. Just let it go.

Similarly, police yourselves when you're posing a question on a thread. "Am I on the right thread for this question?". IMHO, launching an OT question on a thread happens because it is the easy thing to do vs. doing a forum search for a specific thread/topic, or going to the "List Questions..." thread. Thread tags have been improved in the last year making subject-matter searching much better in case you haven't used this in awhile.

The alert button, the ignore list feature, and your own good judgement are your friends...exercise them.

Moderators can make OT posts go away, and you are typically the first step in that process. Don't make my job harder by giving me 5 OT posts and their offspring to handle. OK? I'd rather be sleuthing myself IYKWIM.

Love ya'. Mean it.

TIA!
 

joypath

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Thank you for that information. So, we wont get his take until trial. Csi Welch and Supervisor Mears stated that Hanson took photos. I do not understand why some can consider it work product and others clearly just write a report. I think he should have written a report like most did. He moved the log, he collected the remains and evidence, he cut and tied back vines. His report would be very helpful in finding the truth. I hope he doesn't throw away his bench notes like the evidence garage guy did. Thank you for letting me know this.


While a "smidge" off topic from the subject of tape, my comment here does have to do with the DEFENSE OF THE ME's office: " His report would be very helpful in finding the truth. I hope he doesn't throw away his ......" This comment is raising a red flag directly at those who incorporate the data received within the investigation and then provide a completed analysis, report, evaluation or in this particular case, a death certificate. Mr. Hansen's report is part of the ME's INVESTIGATION into the case, it is conducted along with the LE but not FOR the LE, not for the DEFENSE but for the VICTIM who frequently gets LOST IN THE SHUFFLE!
AND I doubt strongly that Jan :snooty:would toss any reports from the field AT ANY TIME from ANY record, heck it just isn't done......these records are sacrosanct!

NOW back to my own backlog of paperwork yuck!:banghead:
 

LambChop

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I also doubt that LE did anything but an excellent job at preserving the duct tape evidence on Caylee. Most police officers can handle about anything but when it's a child it is extremely difficult for most of them. These same people were on their hands and knees trying to find the rest of Caylee's bones which were scattered throughout the area. So whatever doubts someone may have about the duct tape we can be assured they did a proper job. JMO
 

5stars

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I hope this is the right place to put this question.Have we seen fingerprints on the duct tape?
 
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