2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

[BaileyandBella]

Dr. Utz explained that they took a picture of it in the position it was on the skull but after the skull was removed. That's why it was circular in shape. Because Caylee's skull formed the circle.

I too was surprised at how far around her head one of those pieces went!

Did the pieces meet together at the back?

 

[ynotdivein]

What I am wondering about is how it looked circular today.

I don't know how to answer this in a way that is respectful to Caylee's remains...

Imagine the rounded frontal plane of a small child's head. Imagine wrapping a strip of tape around that surface so that the tape extended from behind one ear to behind the other.

Even if one end of that tape came loose, there would still be a "curve" to the tape from having been over the front/jaw portion of the skull for so long.

If that makes sense?

 

[Soulmagent]

Hey Pink Panther. Today, there was not any discussion about this. IIRC, Dr. Garavaglia indicated in the autopsy report that the duct tape was placed "peri-mortem"--meaning either shortly before or shortly after death.

IMO the SA is being fairly methodical about presenting information to the jury, and so I expect to see Dr. Garavaglia testify sometime tomorrow.

Interesting word

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:aG6WMgnv7UwJ:anthropology.si.edu/writteninbone/comic/activity/pdf/Perimortem.pdf+perimortem+definition&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiRSlrggXTB0B44VVH0K8LlKfv5enJyk7W8VW_hnt8ODMztkEKeSfEtNkaeUsbP2PzHMPUpa-s6Nv4bCZOwQFycz6lvnlv8WRVydfs_ezEBGRw8e7z95nKzfDY_J3arSCVNkQjt&sig=AHIEtbRz-C1_Uvcqfk_G0MVSyAGHfRp72Q

I guess we wont ever know the truth there.

 

[Soulmagent]

I don't know how to answer this in a way that is respectful to Caylee's remains...

Imagine the rounded frontal plane of a small child's head. Imagine wrapping a strip of tape around that surface so that the tape extended from behind one ear to behind the other.

Even if one end of that tape came loose, there would still be a "curve" to the tape from having been over the front/jaw portion of the skull for so long.

If that makes sense?

after it lost structural integrity it wouldnt hold a specific form so it should of just flopped arround ,given that the tape could have only been so tight until the body decomposed within a week it would not have been tight after that.

a curve would have been due to the tape itself and not a form. All tape will curve.

 

[ynotdivein]

True that Soul. Perhaps the roots growing through the remains will tell the rest of the story?

Also, the type of Henkel tape used is fireproof to 200 degrees. I am only speculating here, but perhaps the silver coated side of the tape was more firm/more likely to hold a shape?

At any rate, when the ME got to the remains site, the mandible was stuck tightly enough to the skull that it "came up" with it. The jurors had the misfortune today of witnessing that. I think we will hear more tomorrow about how this came to be.

 

[wenwe4]

What I am wondering about is how it looked circular today.

First - see Ynot's post
Second - while on the stand going through the pictures today he explained that the delaminated fiber weave on the back of the tape had pulled away from the silver part and he pointed to the part at the back of the picture (where it appears to curve together to form a complete circle) and said that was the fibrous weave of the backing of the duct tape.

 

[MissJames]

What I am wondering about is how it looked circular today.

I'm not sure I understand . What other shape would it take?

 

[MissJames]

after it lost structural integrity it wouldnt hold a specific form so it should of just flopped arround ,given that the tape could have only been so tight until the body decomposed within a week it would not have been tight after that.

a curve would have been due to the tape itself and not a form. All tape will curve.

Well,it was layered ,somewhat,so each piece was reinforced which adds firmness. .Also ,it was tightly stuck into the hair in back,correct? So that holds it in place there. If it became loose in the front,due to decomposition ,it could still only go so far ,up or down in front because it was held in place in the back.It would be loose,but not flopping around,as you suggest. The skull still acts as a form . It can't flatten out or fold together because the skull is in the way.
Hope that helps.

 

[QuietStorm]

It's Friday and I may be more nuts than usual after my evening cocktail - but if you look at image 3 here http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/21249759/detail.html - not the up close version but at the bottom row, I think you can see a heart outline on the bottom left of that image... or is it me??

Please tell me that's not Caylee's hair stuck to the duct tape. I'm shaking in horror. I've never looked at these before.

 

[Soulmagent]

I am confused as to the picture I saw today of the duct tape. That thinner piece at the top....was the around the back of Caylee's head?

I thought it was determined that she had 3 straight pieces of tape on the front of her face/mouth.

Thanks

I thought this post was asking about duct tape after it was removed and its shape.

Well,it was layered ,somewhat,so each piece was reinforced which adds firmness. .Also ,it was tightly stuck into the hair in back,correct? So that holds it in place there. If it became loose in the front,due to decomposition ,it could still only go so far ,up or down in front because it was held in place in the back.It would be loose,but not flopping around,as you suggest. The skull still acts as a form . It can't flatten out or fold together because the skull is in the way.
Hope that helps.

My floppy tape was meaning to respond to that.

 

[Desdemona]

Hey Pink Panther. Today, there was not any discussion about this. IIRC, Dr. Garavaglia indicated in the autopsy report that the duct tape was placed "peri-mortem"--meaning either shortly before or shortly after death.

IMO the SA is being fairly methodical about presenting information to the jury, and so I expect to see Dr. Garavaglia testify sometime tomorrow.

Here is a link to the WS thread where Huck vs. Florida has been previously discussed, addressing the issue of duct tape being applied before or after death, and the affirmed assumption by the expert witness that it was applied antemortem, based on the concept of what is reasonable versus unreasonable.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104985"]Implications of Huck Case Ruling RE: duct tape on nose and mouth - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


In Huck, it is stated that in a circumstantial case, the State may assert reasonable assumptions as to the evidence, and has no obligation to refute unreasonable claims by the Defense. In this case, the unreasonable claim was that duct tape had been applied to the victim's eyes and mouth AFTER death. The appeals court decision stated that it was NOT reasonable to assume duct tape had been applied to someone already deceased, but that the State was right to contend that the duct tape had been applied during the commission of the murder.

Page 13
http://www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/Huck.pdf

P.S. The Huck ruling, citing Buenoano v. State and Butts v. State, also says:

The Florida Supreme Court has held that "expert medical testimony as to the cause of death need not be stated with reasonable certainty in a homicide prosecution and is competent if the expert can show that, in his opinion, the occurrence could cause death or that the occurrence might have or probably did cause death."

Same document as above, see pages 19-21.
http://www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/Huck.pdf

 

[MissJames]

Here is a link to the WS thread where Huck vs. Florida has been previously discussed, addressing the issue of duct tape being applied before or after death, and the affirmed assumption by the expert witness that it was applied antemortem, based on the concept of what is reasonable versus unreasonable.

Implications of Huck Case Ruling RE: duct tape on nose and mouth - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


In Huck, it is stated that in a circumstantial case, the State may assert reasonable assumptions as to the evidence, and has no obligation to refute unreasonable claims by the Defense. In this case, the unreasonable claim was that duct tape had been applied to the victim's eyes and mouth AFTER death. The appeals court decision stated that it was NOT reasonable to assume duct tape had been applied to someone already deceased, but that the State was right to contend that the duct tape had been applied during the commission of the murder.

Page 13
http://www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/Huck.pdf

P.S. The Huck ruling, citing Buenoano v. State and Butts v. State, also says:

The Florida Supreme Court has held that "expert medical testimony as to the cause of death need not be stated with reasonable certainty in a homicide prosecution and is competent if the expert can show that, in his opinion, the occurrence could cause death or that the occurrence might have or probably did cause death."

Same document as above, see pages 19-21.
http://www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/Huck.pdf

BBM
Of interest, When Judge Perry was a Prosecutor he tried the Buenoano case and sought the death penalty,which she received. He attended Ms. Buenoano's execution.

 

[MissJames]

Please tell me that's not Caylee's hair stuck to the duct tape. I'm shaking in horror. I've never looked at these before.

Duct tape has a layer of mesh type material . I believe what you are seeing is the threads of that material in a state of partial disintegration. Those are loose threads.

 

[MissJames]

I would like to suggest to the DT that if Ms. Anthony feels the need to vomit today they can cover her mouth with duct tape to prevent the purging .

 

[TxJan1971]

I would like to suggest to the DT that if Ms. Anthony feels the need to vomit today they can cover her mouth with duct tape to prevent the purging .

I also think that it would be appropriate for ICA to receive a "cocktail" of Chloroform followed by duct tape over her mouth as her form of lethal injection if she is found guilty and sentenced to death. Death by Chloroform Cocktail and Duct Tape.

 

[celticthyme]

Bond, thank you for all this incredible work. What was that thing they used to test in school along with math and reading? Spatial relationships? Yeah, I'm not too good at those. So I've been twisting my head around at my computer and flipping pictures and I have no idea if I have this right, BUT it seems to me that, based on the position of the Henkel logo in the first attached photo (the "inside" of the tape) and the assumption of a right-handed person applying the tape so the logo is toward their right-hand side, Q63 (the top one of the crossed tape pieces) was placed lower than Q64, not higher. But I agree that where it would diverge from the placement of Q64 would be to the right side of Caylee's face (the left side from our point of view looking at your drawing of the face), as you have shown.

So...I know that was the worst sentence ever, but the point is if you take the second page of the attached .pdf and hit "rotate clockwise" twice, that should be the placement of Q64, with Q63 crossed on top, from Casey's point of view looking at Caylee. Which might help if we are looking for impressions of the jaw area, etc.

This excellent post is worth taking a closer look at

 

[celticthyme]

Bond gave AZlawyer and I a little experiment over the weekend. :book: He must have thought we were bored or at least did not have anything better to do. Like a dutiful rube, I volunteered. :wave:

Here is his request:

I skipped blowtorch because my plumber's sweat torch was out of liquid propane. I also skipped pocket knife because, believe it or not, I do not own one. But I did do numbers 1 - 4.

Even though it is the most popular brand of tape in the world, I do not own Henkel tape. My roll was made by Intertape. In fact, it was manufactured in Florida (unless they secretly manufacture it in China and purposefully mislabel their rolls :deal. Here is a picture of my tape:

View attachment 9043

The tape is not industrial grade, nor is it fire resistant. But it seems pretty heavy duty. I've used it to tape the seat on my exercise bike and it has held up well.

Here is an image taken after cutting the tape with scissors. The cut was clean and smooth - no rough edges. FWIW, I use scissors when cutting duct tape for applications such as patching a bike seat.

View attachment 9047

Here is an image taken after cutting the tape with a knife, with the tape laying on a flat surface (a counter top). I used a steak knife, because it is similar to what was found in KC's Pontiac. Even though I did not have Henkel tape, I did use a Henckel steak knife. :thumb:

Note that at the start of the cut the tape pulls a little before cutting takes place. I tried this a couple of times, and got the same result every time.

View attachment 9046

Next I tried stretching out a piece of tape and cutting it with the knife. It was harder to coordinate than I expected, because one really needs three hands to get the job done. I ended up grasping the roll between my knees, holding the free end of the tape with my left hand, and making a quick slice with my right. It wasn't until I finished the maneuver that I realized how close I came to reenacting the Bobbit saga all by myself. :yow:

I tried this a couple times (I am a slow learner :bang and found I always had trouble with the "finish". In one case I had to finish the cut with a second swipe of the knife. In the other, the cut kind of trailed off on a curve. The knife cuts were clean, but not straight.

View attachment 9045

Finally, I tore with my hands. It was neither hard nor easy. In the following image both ends were hand torn. My hand is shown to make it easy for me to identify the picture as the hand-torn one. Nice idea, huh? :idea: I sure need to do something with my nails.

View attachment 9044

The straight but ragged edges look to me to be much more in line with the duct tape evidence we have seen, leading me to conclude that KC tore the tape with her hands and did not cut it with a knife or scissors.

Woops . . I brought over the wrong one . . Also trying to find BJB's original entry AZ is referring to ... amazing sleuthing these folks did about the tape

 

[beach]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5197128&postcount=646"]AZlawyer's depiction of the placement of the duct tape is right here w/ thumbnail pic.[/ame]

 

[SATA]

Ugh, those pictures.

So typical Casey. Wraps a bunch of ducktape around the head of her helpless little daughter. Then tops it off with a heart-sticker - then it´s OK, right? Mommy loves you. :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

It is like something out of a horror movie - ALL of it.

 

[beach]

In light of today's testimony and because this is without a doubt my favorite thread in this forum :heartbeat:....

Anyone who has not read this thread and wants to understand how VITAL the duct tape story is to this case, owes it to themselves to read it. If you don't want to read the complete thread from begining, post #376 is a good starting point. Keep reading though because the theories change as we discover, study and continue sleuthing for weeks and months. This is some great stuff people. Take a look at what a magnificent group of sleuthers can do when we work together.

Okay, that is all for my PSA and sales pitch. For now anyway.