2011.02.21 Autopsy; COD & TOD Discussion *Warning: Graphic*

[WhyaDuck?]

I am not sure if a sternum would be completely fused yet in a ten year old - some people take a while for that. I don't think it would be terribly odd for it to have been lost/scavenged. I don't think EB would have the know-how/why to remove the sternum.

Just MOO.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Other than the skull, the sternum would be one of the best places to tell COD.

I hate to revisit the elephant in my bed... :blush:...but, ummm...why is that?

 

[WhyaDuck?]

I hate to revisit the elephant in my bed... :blush:...but, ummm...why is that?

The sternum is the most likely bone to show stab wounds, being spongy and in the middle of the chest, where most non-professional killers aim for. It would also show signs of a severe beating, I think.

 

[Claudette]

Um....I never ask but this one time...why was my comment deleted? I didn't go against TOS in anything I said?

 

[WhyaDuck?]

Um....I never ask but this one time...why was my comment deleted? I didn't go against TOS in anything I said?

No, not deleted. It was moved to the thread discussing whether AB new what EB was doing to Zahra - the topic was a better fit, as we don't have a thread about AB's involvement in the murder any more in light of recent developments.

Sorry, I just hadn't gotten around to PMing you about the move.

 

[Pugnolia]

Has anyone else noticed, in the diagram of the skeleton's missing bones, that the skull shows a small 'chip' on the right side (on the left as we look at it) that appears to me to be a 'found piece.' Can anyone weigh in on this? If indeed a tiny piece of the skull was found, that would indicate, at least to me, a blow to the head.

http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-national/zahra-baker-autopsy-and-medical-examiner-s-report-video

 

[westsidefox64]

Has anyone else noticed, in the diagram of the skeleton's missing bones, that the skull shows a small 'chip' on the right side (on the left as we look at it) that appears to me to be a 'found piece.' Can anyone weigh in on this? If indeed a tiny piece of the skull was found, that would indicate, at least to me, a blow to the head.

http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-national/zahra-baker-autopsy-and-medical-examiner-s-report-video

I noticed that myself and automatically though hear wound. Seems strange that one little piece would be there.

I wondered also how hard it was to determine where that piece went. I feel so bad for LE.

 

[strach304]

IMO LE must have evidence of blood and tissue on the wall and floor in Zahra's bedroom that supports murder versus natural death. Plus evidence from the bathtub drain that supports dismemberment happened there.

I wonder if they can tell the difference between blood from the dismemberment and blood loss from when she was alive? I'm hoping there's a way to distinguish the two otherwise EB will say the blood was entirely from dismemberment.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

I wonder if they can tell the difference between blood from the dismemberment and blood loss from when she was alive? I'm hoping there's a way to distinguish the two otherwise EB will say the blood was entirely from dismemberment.

There are ways to tell if a blood stain was made antemortem or postmortem, but I think it depends on how long after death the dismemberment occurred. (Though the spray pattern would also be different, IIRC.)

I.e.:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7861641

 

[Hickory Born]

There are ways to tell if a blood stain was made antemortem or postmortem, but I think it depends on how long after death the dismemberment occurred. (Though the spray pattern would also be different, IIRC.)

I.e.:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7861641

If the body were not in a state of rigamortis, I think it would be difficult to dismember it in a deep bathtub without scaring the tub. It is my understanding that full rigamortis sets in around 12 hrs. after death.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

If the body were not in a state of rigamortis, I think it would be difficult to dismember it in a deep bathtub without scaring the tub. It is my understanding that full rigamortis sets in around 12 hrs. after death.

Personally, I don't think it would be easier to dismember once rigor sets in. I think it would be easiest to do it soon after death, when you can actually move the limbs the way you need to.

 

[Hickory Born]

Personally, I don't think it would be easier to dismember once rigor sets in. I think it would be easiest to do it soon after death, when you can actually move the limbs the way you need to.

You might be right. I have only dissected a cat in a Comparative Anatomy course (many moons ago) and I didn't dismember it. I was thinking more of a floppy body in a deep bathtub being difficult.

 

[joypath]

If the body were not in a state of rigamortis, I think it would be difficult to dismember it in a deep bathtub without scaring the tub. It is my understanding that full rigamortis sets in around 12 hrs. after death.

:twocents: If I :innocent: may jump in, working on a body in full rigor mortis is extremely difficult and unwieldy as there is NO flexibility in the corpse. Many a member of the OCME's :innocent: office could share a story or two of transporting a case in extremis as is and sometimes with ancillary materials (think: grasped tree branches) unless the ME has attended the scene and authorized "relaxation".

ITA that randomized attacking of a body by a hatchet, Halligan, axe or other such item within a bathtub would leave marks unless one were as proficient as the proverbial circus knife thrower!

The more efficient "dismemberer" would wait until rigor dissipated and performed the cuts at the joints rather than random hacking.

 

[tlcya]

I may have to revisit the photos of the home on 21st (interior). If I recall Zahra's room had pink walls with some really horrid looking attempt at a faux finish. I recall we speculated it may have been a quick attempt at painting over evidence. I also seem to recall her room not being carpetted but instead having wood floor, a portion of which was removed by LE. Whether it was carpetted prior to the search or whether carpetting was removed during the execution of SW I do not know. I do know there were several local members present outside the home and watching what items were being removed. There were also alot of press present cataloging whatever they could see being removed from the house.

I do not think it is a "given" that dismemberment ocurred in the tub. I think it possible, but I think it equally possible that she may have been dismembered in her bedroom and if carpetting existed it was removed and dumped. If there was never carpetting to begin with but simply the hardwood flooring, that would have made for an easier cleanup I suspect and may also explain why a section of flooring was removed by LE.

 

[Allusonz]

O/T (Oh, the irony!)

Are you trying to imply that I suck at staying on topic? :innocent:

ummmm i believe that i probably hold the record for that as WhyaDuck i am sure can attest to :innocent:

 

[tlcya]

Since we are discussing our propensity for OT I feel I should chime in and post that I just realized I went running off on a tanget over in the "was AB fooled" thread thinking I was over here.

Maybe I am gettin to tired to be a coherent contributor here. yawn.

My mind is on the floorboard sections removed from Z's room during SW execution tonight. The more I think on it, the more I think the dismemberment happened in the bedroom and the drain evidence was from the cleanup efforts afterwards.

 

[Ssejors]

:twocents: If I :innocent: may jump in, working on a body in full rigor mortis is extremely difficult and unwieldy as there is NO flexibility in the corpse. Many a member of the OCME's :innocent: office could share a story or two of transporting a case in extremis as is and sometimes with ancillary materials (think: grasped tree branches) unless the ME has attended the scene and authorized "relaxation".

ITA that randomized attacking of a body by a hatchet, Halligan, axe or other such item within a bathtub would leave marks unless one were as proficient as the proverbial circus knife thrower!

The more efficient "dismemberer" would wait until rigor dissipated and performed the cuts at the joints rather than random hacking.

I would have to agree with Joy here, and tlcox

My mind is on the floorboard sections removed from Z's room during SW execution tonight. The more I think on it, the more I think the dismemberment happened in the bedroom and the drain evidence was from the cleanup efforts afterwards.

I would assume that if one was using tools such as axes, saws, knives and such, to dismember a body, you wouldnt want to do that IN the bath tub. You would scratch the bejeebiz out of your tub. And a giant Handsaw blade mark on your bath tub is all kinds of awesome evidence! Seeing as her mattress was thrown out.. one would assume that Zahra's bedroom was where all this happened


This story is just too crazy for me.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

GRAPHIC

I'm not seeing dismemberment occuring in the bedroom. In my mind, her body was taken and laid out on the bathroom floor for this task, and then the parts tossed into the bathtub as they were removed. When I saw the cut marks diagram from the autopsy, the first thing I did was go to my bathroom, and stand over my tub. I tried to make sawing motions from this angle. Can't be done. Try it, and you'll immediately see what I mean...your arm is at an impossible angle when you try to "saw" the side of the bone closest to the edge of the tub.

If we look at the pictures of the bathroom, it's easy to see that the bulk of the blood evidence was found in this room. The entire floor is missing, along with the vanity and sink. And, to my mind anyway, it is painfully obvious that the paint job in this room was rushed. It doesn't go all the way around the room, doesn't go all the way behind the toilet, and there are black brush strokes on the tank of the toilet. Ask yourself...would YOU leave a "finished" room of your house like this?

My gut feeling is that the murder occurred in the bedroom, the dismemberment occured in the bathroom, and the clean up of the cleanup occured in the kitchen. Part of the kitchen floor by the refridgerator has been removed. My first thought when I saw that was that a trash bag leaked. That's still my gut feeling, although, I have nothing to base that on other than gut feeling.

All JMO

 

[Flakes]

Good thinking Mountain Kat.

I think I need to go to bed...this is all starting to sound like Cluedo to me Maybe I'm starting to dissociate from the anguish of this past couple of days of painful thinking.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

ummmm i believe that i probably hold the record for that as WhyaDuck i am sure can attest to :innocent:

FWIW, I really appreciate the posters in this forum. By and large, you guys accept policy change with graciousness, and I can see the effort people put into following the rules, and I really do appreciate it. Under those conditions, I am very rarely ruffled by directing traffic once in a while, since I know people are generally quite mindful of the board regs. This forum is actually a refuge compared to some of the other cases I help with.

Sorry for the OT, but I wanted to take a moment to say thanks and keep up with the good work.