2011.02.21 Autopsy; COD & TOD Discussion *Warning: Graphic*

[Mountain_Kat]

Good thinking Mountain Kat.

I think I need to go to bed...this is all starting to sound like Cluedo to me Maybe I'm starting to dissociate from the anguish of this past couple of days of painful thinking.

O/T

I know exactly where you are coming from, Flakes. After I read my last post in this thread, I actually cried (and I very rarely ever cry). The detachment you have to have to even discuss some of these things (or maybe it's the detachment that occurs WHEN you allow yourself to discuss these things...I don't know), it's damaging. For me, anyway. What helps me find a way to come back from that (for lack of a better phrase) is the Emotional Toll thread. It truly does help to have a safe place to express some of these emotions, and not feel alone in them.

JMO

 

[westsidefox64]

GRAPHIC

I'm not seeing dismemberment occuring in the bedroom. In my mind, her body was taken and laid out on the bathroom floor for this task, and then the parts tossed into the bathtub as they were removed. When I saw the cut marks diagram from the autopsy, the first thing I did was go to my bathroom, and stand over my tub. I tried to make sawing motions from this angle. Can't be done. Try it, and you'll immediately see what I mean...your arm is at an impossible angle when you try to "saw" the side of the bone closest to the edge of the tub.

If we look at the pictures of the bathroom, it's easy to see that the bulk of the blood evidence was found in this room. The entire floor is missing, along with the vanity and sink. And, to my mind anyway, it is painfully obvious that the paint job in this room was rushed. It doesn't go all the way around the room, doesn't go all the way behind the toilet, and there are black brush strokes on the tank of the toilet. Ask yourself...would YOU leave a "finished" room of your house like this?

My gut feeling is that the murder occurred in the bedroom, the dismemberment occured in the bathroom, and the clean up of the cleanup occured in the kitchen. Part of the kitchen floor by the refridgerator has been removed. My first thought when I saw that was that a trash bag leaked. That's still my gut feeling, although, I have nothing to base that on other than gut feeling.

All JMO

Thank you MK. I have been trying to run every senerio Ive seen through my mind and this is the first one that makes sense. It seems so clear to me that this is what happened.
The bedroom didnt make sense because the matress would be too giving. If it had taken place on the bedroom floor much more of it would have been removed by LE. JMO

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Thank you MK. I have been trying to run every senerio Ive seen through my mind and this is the first one that makes sense. It seems so clear to me that this is what happened.
The bedroom didnt make sense because the matress would be too giving. If it had taken place on the bedroom floor much more of it would have been removed by LE. JMO

I think the blood evidence left behind in the bedroom was unintentional. That's a strange way to put it, but what I mean is that dismemberment is an intentional act...you make a conscious choice about where you will do that. You have time to think about what type of surface is most easily cleaned, whether or not you will need access to a water source, etc. etc. What occured in the bedroom, if we choose to believe this was not a premeditated murder, didn't afford the option of a conscious choice with respect to leaving behind evidence. You snap, the evidence is now all over the place, you have no option but to try to deal with it the best you can. I think that is why we see the bedroom walls being repainted, the mattress discarded, and imo, bedroom carpet removed. You can't clean blood out of a mattress and carpet and not leave behind dna evidence. You have no choice but to get rid of them. If you had a conscious choice (like you have with dismemberment), I don't believe you would choose large, conspicuous surfaces that you knew you would have to discard afterwards.

Just my thoughts.

 

[tlcya]

I do not mean the following post to be morbid or flip AT ALL so please do not take it as such. I know what this sort of theorizing costs you, me, and all of us here. But as to your thoughts on the dismemberment, the killing, clueanup etc - I love the way you think.

Reading your posts above, I cannot think of anything that makes more practical sense than how you have outlined it. I thank you for thinking it through, I know how this sort of detachment can trouble our souls. But by George, I think you've got it.

You have, for me, resolved the wheres and the whys of that particular aspect of this mystery.

 

[vjlaw]

I think the blood evidence left behind in the bedroom was unintentional. That's a strange way to put it, but what I mean is that dismemberment is an intentional act...you make a conscious choice about where you will do that. You have time to think about what type of surface is most easily cleaned, whether or not you will need access to a water source, etc. etc. What occured in the bedroom, if we choose to believe this was not a premeditated murder, didn't afford the option of a conscious choice with respect to leaving behind evidence. You snap, the evidence is now all over the place, you have no option but to try to deal with it the best you can. I think that is why we see the bedroom walls being repainted, the mattress discarded, and imo, bedroom carpet removed. You can't clean blood out of a mattress and carpet and not leave behind dna evidence. You have no choice but to get rid of them. If you had a conscious choice (like you have with dismemberment), I don't believe you would choose large, conspicuous surfaces that you knew you would have to discard afterwards.

Just my thoughts.

Getting rid of carpet, even cheap carpet is not that easy. I think if you throw it away in small pieces, that would require several trash bags. What dumpster was used for that? It could have been taken in the yard and burned. Thinking about the backyard search and all the flags around the yard, it could have been put through the chipper.

 

[Hickory Born]

I question if the room had carpet.

 

[vjlaw]

I question if the room had carpet.

We don't know either way. If anyone can remember if the picture of AB/EB's bedroom had carpet, then Zahra's probably did too. If the blood splatters caused a painting of the bedroom, then I would think there would be paint splatters and drops on the wood floor. The painting appeared to be hurried, so I can't imagine it being done neatly. I don't remember seeing that on the wood. jmo

 

[tlcya]

Agreed, Hickory Born. I think the floor may have been the wood floor with no carpetting. I do know that several locals were there in shifts watching the SW execution and none of the mentioned LE bringing any out, nor did media who were also mentioning what they saw coming out. But we just don't know for sure, having never seen the interior pre-Zahra disappearance. The only ones who know are the landlord and the tenants and none of them are here to ask.

If there ever was carpetting it was no doubt removed after whatever violent event killed Zahra. I tend to think there was no carpetting there by teh time LE arrived in the picture. We may never know if there was ever any to begin with.

 

[joypath]

SOME GRAPHIC DETAILS WITHIN POST





:seeya: Hi all! While I haven't "followed" Zahra's story as closely as Caylee's, Ynot :rocker:got my curiosity peeked with a link to the post report (and the fact that Zahra was in excellent hands with :innocent: Deborah Radisch, M. D.:rocker: at the helm).

So, having had a few encounters with folks who have left this earthly path, I'm :innocent: betting that the death occurred within the bedroom and that it was NOT exclusively a "soft kill" (aka a death that does not leave massive amounts of bodily fluids) but may have been an OVER KILL (aka a death that involved significant rage where 2 or modes of fatal activities may be involved).
A :loser:neophyte killer :loser: may have ASSUMED that "chopping" up a body is "easy", performing the task on a mattress on a floor would be equally "easy" as of course the bedding would "sop up" any/all fluids. maddening: ummmmm, not so much~). BUT a violent killing or frantic, random dismemberment would result in tissue dispersion within the room and those good ole wood floors and porous walls are just fantastic repositories for occult evidence. (Occult as in NOT VISIBLE by regular light sources:great: and thus, hidden from the :loser: "I cleaned & bleached EVERYTHING" criminal!:loser.

A solid, hard, WASHABLE and NON-POROUS surface is preferable when manipulating a corpse for dissection. The bathroom floor would provide the best surface, if a drain in the floor were present, even better. As mentioned in an earlier response, the methodology of dismemberment would be enhanced by using the body's own "split points", the joints and separating the torso at the waistline, skipping hard tissue structures whenever possible.

:twocents: IMHO, the dissection occurred to facilitate removal of the body, to delay any possible RAPID identification by physical deformity of Zahra's body when/if discovered AND to minimize the RAPID identification of COD.

:twocents: BTW::maddening: This information is NOT a "how to" since I :innocent: left a few details :waitasec: OUT~

 

[Harmony 2]

Agreed, Hickory Born. I think the floor may have been the wood floor with no carpetting. I do know that several locals were there in shifts watching the SW execution and none of the mentioned LE bringing any out, nor did media who were also mentioning what they saw coming out. But we just don't know for sure, having never seen the interior pre-Zahra disappearance. The only ones who know are the landlord and the tenants and none of them are here to ask.

If there ever was carpetting it was no doubt removed after whatever violent event killed Zahra. I tend to think there was no carpetting there by teh time LE arrived in the picture. We may never know if there was ever any to begin with.

Since carpet fibers were mentioned in a search warrant, an area rug (which may have been in front of the bed) is a possibility and it would be easy to roll up and dispose of in a dumpster.

 

[Hickory Born]

Agreed, Hickory Born. I think the floor may have been the wood floor with no carpetting. I do know that several locals were there in shifts watching the SW execution and none of the mentioned LE bringing any out, nor did media who were also mentioning what they saw coming out. But we just don't know for sure, having never seen the interior pre-Zahra disappearance. The only ones who know are the landlord and the tenants and none of them are here to ask.

If there ever was carpetting it was no doubt removed after whatever violent event killed Zahra. I tend to think there was no carpetting there by teh time LE arrived in the picture. We may never know if there was ever any to begin with.

If carpet had been in Zahra's bedroom, then the Bakers would have had to pull up that strip of wood along the outer edges of the room. I don't know how to describe the strip, but little tacts stick up from it to hold the carpet down. The strip of wood is nailed into the floor and there would have been nail holes left in the floor.

Where can I find the videos of Zahra's room? From what I can remember, I think the living room was carpeted. But that doesn't mean the bedrms were carpeted.

 

[Flakes]

...Where can I find the videos of Zahra's room? From what I can remember, I think the living room was carpeted. But that doesn't mean the bedrms were carpeted.

[ame="http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Zahra%20Baker%20%20-NC-/?action=view&current=110510insidethebakerhouse001.mp4"]Zahra Baker -NC- :: 11/5/10 inside the house video by crankycrankerson - Photobucket@@AMEPARAM@@http://vid296.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Zahra%20Baker%20%20-NC-/110510insidethebakerhouse001.mp4@@AMEPARAM@@vid296@@AMEPARAM@@296@@AMEPARAM@@mm166/crankycrankerson/Zahra%20Baker%20%20-NC-/110510insidethebakerhouse001@@AMEPARAM@@mp4[/ame]

video at that link plus still photos over the next few pages.eg http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/...r%20%20-NC-/?action=view&current=wsoctv-1.jpg

I find the skirting board area bizarre. It looks to have been painted on the right side wall under the window with the pink curtain and central heating duct, but on the other wall with window and cut out section of wall, the skirting board isn't painted. I wonder if that was removed by forensics? Perhaps so they could access the wall to cut, or perhaps because it contained evidence itself? OR it was missing when LE entered the house?

In the photos you can see the floor is very dark in patches like old staining, but lighter grain showing through.

I am sure LE could determine the age of the paint on the walls, just as they could the renovations in the bathroom to establish if they were new. As stated previously by another poster, that info is undoubtedly in the hands of LE as the owners and AB would give evidence on this. I suspect it was done by EB as much was black, and the wallpaper in the lounge and kitchen impressed me as the strange sort of stuff she would choose (based on the mood of her facebook posts that I have read ... she projected a sort of sweetness). The floor of the bathroom was the floating floorboards over the old lino (or tiles). I recall thinking it was odd that there were cotton tips on the lower level of floor as if they didn't clean up when putting in the floorboards. Or maybe it was mess made by LE? All weird.

There are images of the master bedroom (waterbed and wardrobe) on the previous page of the site.

–––––

Also - I recall they took into possession a camera and pics on cards, so I presume they will have printed these. There may be images of Zahra in the house and her bedroom, maybe even with dates. So that would allow for comparison to the existing room condition. These will come out in the courtroom I guess (if they exist).

 

[Hickory Born]

Zahra Baker -NC- :: 11/5/10 inside the house video by crankycrankerson - Photobucket

video at that link plus still photos over the next few pages.eg http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/...r%20%20-NC-/?action=view&current=wsoctv-1.jpg

I find the skirting board area bizarre. It looks to have been painted on the right side wall under the window with the pink curtain and central heating duct, but on the other wall with window and cut out section of wall, the skirting board isn't painted. I wonder if that was removed by forensics? Perhaps so they could access the wall to cut, or perhaps because it contained evidence itself? OR it was missing when LE entered the house?

In the photos you can see the floor is very dark in patches like old staining, but lighter grain showing through.

I am sure LE could determine the age of the paint on the walls, just as they could the renovations in the bathroom to establish if they were new. As stated previously by another poster, that info is undoubtedly in the hands of LE as the owners and AB would give evidence on this. I suspect it was done by EB as much was black, and the wallpaper in the lounge and kitchen impressed me as the strange sort of stuff she would choose (based on the mood of her facebook posts that I have read ... she projected a sort of sweetness). The floor of the bathroom was the floating floorboards over the old lino (or tiles). I recall thinking it was odd that there were cotton tips on the lower level of floor as if they didn't clean up when putting in the floorboards. Or maybe it was mess made by LE? All weird.

There are images of the master bedroom (waterbed and wardrobe) on the previous page of the site.

–––––

Also - I recall they took into possession a camera and pics on cards, so I presume they will have printed these. There may be images of Zahra in the house and her bedroom, maybe even with dates. So that would allow for comparison to the existing room condition. These will come out in the courtroom I guess (if they exist).

Thank you. Zahra's closet floor looks like it is carpeted. photo #382

 

[tlcya]

If carpet had been in Zahra's bedroom, then the Bakers would have had to pull up that strip of wood along the outer edges of the room. I don't know how to describe the strip, but little tacts stick up from it to hold the carpet down. The strip of wood is nailed into the floor and there would have been nail holes left in the floor.

Where can I find the videos of Zahra's room? From what I can remember, I think the living room was carpeted. But that doesn't mean the bedrms were carpeted.

BBM, excellent thought, there most certainly would be tack strips around the perimeter of the room which upon removal would probably be revealed if any of the video of photos are good enough to get a good view of those areas.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Just a few random thoughts this morning:

The carpet in the livingroom appears to be some sort of berber carpet. If you look at the pics taken of the fireplace, you can see that the carpet in this room wasn't tacked down, but simply laid over the floor. That makes me wonder if they didn't use carpet adhesive to hold this carpet in place. If they did, perhaps they also used carpet adhesive to hold down a carpet in Zahra's bedroom (assuming there even was carpet in that room). Perhaps what we are seeing, with respect to the condition of the floor in Zahra's bedroom, is the result of removing carpet adhesive? It certainly appears as if some sort of scraping or sanding was done to that floor. Just a thought.

I have it in my mind that there was carpet in EB's bedroom. Black or dark purple. But it's been ages since I've seen the video from that room, so take my shadowy recollection on this with a boat load of salt. I tried to find video of the bedroom this morning to double check, but no luck. Maybe another WSer will have more luck tracking down that video?

Anyway, whether or not there was carpet in Zahra's bedroom isn't really a sticking point to me with respect to what I believe happened in the bedroom. It really only matters in terms of clean up. I do believe there was carpet in that room, but it's certainly a debatable point.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Flakes, I totally missed your post when I typed my last post. Thank you for the link...trying to get pics to load now. (stupid piecemeal computer!)

 

[Hickory Born]

Just a few random thoughts this morning:

The carpet in the livingroom appears to be some sort of berber carpet. If you look at the pics taken of the fireplace, you can see that the carpet in this room wasn't tacked down, but simply laid over the floor. That makes me wonder if they didn't use carpet adhesive to hold this carpet in place. If they did, perhaps they also used carpet adhesive to hold down a carpet in Zahra's bedroom (assuming there even was carpet in that room). Perhaps what we are seeing, with respect to the condition of the floor in Zahra's bedroom, is the result of removing carpet adhesive? It certainly appears as if some sort of scraping or sanding was done to that floor. Just a thought.

I have it in my mind that there was carpet in EB's bedroom. Black or dark purple. But it's been ages since I've seen the video from that room, so take my shadowy recollection on this with a boat load of salt. I tried to find video of the bedroom this morning to double check, but no luck. Maybe another WSer will have more luck tracking down that video?

Anyway, whether or not there was carpet in Zahra's bedroom isn't really a sticking point to me with respect to what I believe happened in the bedroom. It really only matters in terms of clean up. I do believe there was carpet in that room, but it's certainly a debatable point.

Good morning, I agree, I think there was carpet in that room. I was trying to work through (in my mind) the scenario of EB, ALONE, pulling and rolling up the carpet and disposing of it. IMO this would take some strength and time. Plus, since Adam has told us he looked in Zahra's bedroom EVERY night, did he notice the carpet was missing?

If carpet were in the room, wouldn't the spillage of blood (or whatever) have been a considerable amount, enough to go through the carpet down to the floor where LE cut out.

This might be a moot point because LE could have rolled it up and put it in another room in the house. But if that is true, why didn't Adam notice the spot (blood or bleach) on the carpet?

Tying this to TOD, I think the cleanup might have taken 2 weeks. Now maybe I won't get in trouble with mods.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Good morning, I agree, I think there was carpet in that room. I was trying to work through (in my mind) the scenario of EB, ALONE, pulling and rolling up the carpet and disposing of it. IMO this would take some strength and time. Plus, since Adam has told us he looked in Zahra's bedroom EVERY night, did he notice the carpet was missing?

If carpet were in the room, wouldn't the spillage of blood (or whatever) have been a considerable amount, enough to go through the carpet down to the floor where LE cut out.

This might be a moot point because LE could have rolled it up and put it in another room in the house. But if that is true, why didn't Adam notice the spot (blood or bleach) on the carpet?

Tying this to TOD, I think the cleanup might have taken 2 weeks. Now maybe I won't get in trouble with mods.

(Bare with me mods, I'm actually getting to being on topic here, I promise.)

BBM

That's part of the reason I wondered if there had been carpet in this room. When we first saw the pictures from inside the bedroom, the 3 things that immediately stood out to me was the removal of the wall section, the removal of the floor section, and the appearance of the floor itself. I just had a hard time envisioning a damaged floor left bare like that on purpose. Call it a gut feeling. EB might have questionable decorating skills, but from everything I've seen of the rest of the house, she seemed to care VERY much that her house reflected her personality and, in her mind anyway, looked good. The one room of the house that we can assume wasn't involved in clean up is the livingroom, so I used that for a base of what I thought the house might have looked like prior to cleanup/trashing by LE. The paint is neat, the carpet matches the paint, care was taken in the placement of mirror and acceosries over the mantle, heck even the items on top of the mantle seemed neatly arranged. Then we look at Zahra's room. One of the window treaments remains on the window nearest the closet. Would she bother to do that, but NOT cover a damaged floor? I just didn't think so. So I started to wonder if there had been carpet. It wasn't until I saw the SWs that I had an AHA moment. LE retrieved carpet fibers. They don't say "a carpet", they don't say "a piece of carpet" , and they don't say " a sample of carpet" , they say FIBERS. So, where would they get carpet fibers from? The now bare floor of Zahra's bedroom. Why would they bother to take those carpet fibers into evidence? To show that there HAD been a carpet in there, and to match the carpet fibers to the carpet (if it were ever found).

(Okay Mods...here's where I get on topic.)

The possibility there there might have been carpet in Zahra's room leads to all sorts of interesting questions about TOD, cleanup, how much AB knew or didn't know, etc. etc. But let's for the time being, just look at it in terms of COD.

In my mind, Zahra is standing in her bedroom ( I say standing because of the height of what we think is blood spatter on wall), EB enters the room in a rage and hits her in the head. Zahra falls to the floor bleeding. EB realizes she really screwed up this time, lifts Zahra onto the mattress, and assess the damage, maybe runs to the bathroom for a towel or something. The whole time, the blood on the carpet is soaking through to the floor. And it would have continued soaking through the carpet down to the floor until it dried. Removing a soiled carpet takes ALOT more time than scrubbing a floor stained with blood, so it might have been a day, maybe more, before she could remove this carpet. Especially true if she's trying to hide all this clean up from AB. Anyway, I think the reason LE observed something on the floor that lead them to cut out that part of floor is because the floor was stained (or water damaged). And I think it was stained because the floor itself couldn't be cleaned right away because it was covered in carpet.

(Hope you guys can follow all that. I'm not sure I laid my thoughts out very well. I've editted 5 times because I rambled on about all sorts of things as I was thinking/typing.)

ETA: And I think you're right, I think there is carpet in her closet. Sure looks like it could be carpet. Whatever it is, it doesn't look like it matches the rest of the floor in the room. I never noticed that before.

 

[Lera213]

AB 911 statement of ZB brooding. Could he have seen EB with blood stained hands or clothing or blood somewhere (clean up in bathroom) and EB told him, ZB just had her first Period so she had an accident, don't go in her room she is very embarrassed, I'll handle it. (ZB remains were in the room waiting for AB to leave to dispose of the body) MOO and ?????

 

[Lera213]

The appearence of the floor looking sanded is more than likely due to carpet being there a long time. The backing of a carpet gets worn from years of walking on it, vaccuming, and probably steam cleaned. If you pull up an old carpet you can see what looks to be like sand or saw dust. This rubs on the floor while the carpet is down, therefore it will give the floor a sanded scuffed up look.