3-28-19 SWAT team with guns drawn raids Arizona home for toddler w/fever

[Breezie]

Me too. That is a very extremely high fever for anyone, but especially a child.

How long had the child had a 105 temp or had been sick?

Once my child's temp continued to rise, I would have immediately sought care then.

We had this happen to one of our daughters when she was four. We rushed her to the hospital, and they packed her in ice back then. We were both scared to death. It took forever for her fever to break. She didnt even remember being taken to the hospital.

Why would they have to come up with $2500 up front? Surely they had walk in clinics that are very reasonable.

If there was a nonprofit hospital close by they wouldnt turn a child away with 105 temp, imo.

A 105 temp can cause brain damage. A parent cant just sit idly by, and do nothing hoping the fever breaks.

That is child neglect, and child edangerment. Imo.

It's obvious when it even reached 103 and climbing the child needed immediate care then, and to know it kept rising is unexplainable as to why no care was sought.

What if it hadn't broken? What a horrible risk to take.

We would probably reading about another dead child or one possibly with brain damage if the sky high fever didn't break.

That's a risk I don't think many parents would want to take with their child's life.

There has to be much more to this story.

Imo

It sounds like the fever spiked and then broke very quickly.

A couple decided not to take their feverish child to the hospital. Hours later police kicked down their door

On February 25, the mother took her 2-year-old boy to the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine clinic in Tempe, according to Chandler police records.

It was dinner time. But the toddler’s fever had spiked to over 100 degrees.

Shortly after 6:30 p.m., the mother called the doctor and told her that her toddler no longer had a fever so she wasn’t taking him to the emergency room.

The parents claim that the fever had gone down was later verified by medical records.

 

[Bugurl747]

IMO, it sounds like the physician had causation to report Emergency Medical Neglect on the parents of the minor.

Delay in Health Care is failure to seek timely and appropriate medical care for a serious health problem which any reasonable layman would have recognized as needing professional medical attention.

...Non- vaccinated, fever of 105, suspicion of meningitis which can be contagious and deadly.

Childhood Neglect and Abuse

The article insinuates that the physician reportedly "sicced a police swat team" on the family and that is simply not true nor is it how the process works.

Physicians are mandated reporters and the physician reported the concerning situation to the Arizona Department of Child Safety.

The department of Child Safety then notified the police. Does this guy have a criminal record/history?
Perhaps they acted accordingly for their safety and others which warranted being armed to some degree?

Was there a history or pattern of other questionable medical care choices or lack there of ? There is likely more to the story that we don't know about regarding medical history which is protected by HIPPA.

The Butterfly Effect comes to mind and think this situation could have had such a different outcome if only a few slightly different moves were made or communicated. It is a shame it reached such extreme levels. IMO

Glad the kid is ok. MOO

KNXV report: SWAT Team called to retrieve sick 2-year-old | Michael Berry | NewsRadio 740 KTRH

Police raid home to take unvaccinated child to the hospital; lawmaker wants to make sure that doesn’t happen again

Meningitis | Home | CDC

 

[cobalt sky]

It sounds like the fever spiked and then broke very quickly.

A couple decided not to take their feverish child to the hospital. Hours later police kicked down their door

On February 25, the mother took her 2-year-old boy to the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine clinic in Tempe, according to Chandler police records.

It was dinner time. But the toddler’s fever had spiked to over 100 degrees.

Shortly after 6:30 p.m., the mother called the doctor and told her that her toddler no longer had a fever so she wasn’t taking him to the emergency room.

The parents claim that the fever had gone down was later verified by medical records.

BBM - can you link to the article that states this? I don't see that in the original article you posted above.

 

[cobalt sky]

It sounds like the fever spiked and then broke very quickly.
.

RSBM. The issue is, it's not clear what treatment the child received when he was seen by the original Dr. I would be surprised if the child was allowed to leave the Dr. office with a >105 fever (the Dr. could be at risk for law suits if the child was allowed to leave and then seized or worse) without being given Tylenol or something to control the fever (antipyretic). If the child did receive such medication, then you would expect the fever to have "broke" a short time later, which matches the time that the mother said the child's fever had gone down and he was playing with his siblings. The problem is, just because an antipyretic is successful at reducing the fever, there could still be a dangerous undiagnosed condition that needs further treatment. Which is why the Dr. was insistent on the mother taking the child to the Emergency Room for further workup. IMO.

 

[Breezie]

BBM - can you link to the article that states this? I don't see that in the original article you posted above. Or did you add that part yourself?

It is in the same very long article.

A couple decided not to take their feverish child to the hospital. Hours later police kicked down their door

Attorneys for the parents claimed DCS was angry at the parents for speaking with the media and as retribution DCS officials were making it more difficult for the family to regain custody of their children. They said the child’s fever had gone down, as evidenced in medical reports.

 

[cobalt sky]

It is in the same article.

A couple decided not to take their feverish child to the hospital. Hours later police kicked down their door

Attorneys for the parents claimed DCS was angry at the parents for speaking with the media and as retribution DCS officials were making it more difficult for the family to regain custody of their children. They said the child’s fever had gone down, as evidenced in medical reports.

Any evidence in medical reports of the child's fever going down would have been AFTER the child was removed from the parents and taken to the hospital though. So because the parents refused to allow the child to be examined by anyone, DCS would have had no way to know for sure if the fever had really come down to a safe level or not. Until they forcibly removed the child and took him to medical professional themselves.

 

[Bugurl747]

Snipped for brevity

"Officers said the home was “messy” with clothing piles and concrete floors. In the parent’s room, a shotgun lay next to the bed, according to police records."

The judge said the removal was warranted, citing the mother’s refusal to follow the doctor’s orders. She said records showed the family had a history of domestic violence, noting an incident in which the father punched a wall."

Well, there is the smoking gun!

MOO

 

[Breezie]

Any evidence in medical reports of the child's fever going down would have been AFTER the child was removed from the parents and taken to the hospital though. So because the parents refused to allow the child to be examined by anyone, DCS would have had no way to know for sure if the fever had really come down to a safe level or not. Until they forcibly removed the child and took him to medical professional themselves.

This would set a precedent that parents are not to be trusted at all. It is a slippery slope ....

The doctor was not an MD. Her concern about meningitis turned out to be wrong. Did the child really need to go to the ER when the temp was almost back to normal?

 

[Laughing]

Now hang on -- when a child is found dead, CPS & LE should have done more.

Yes this child seems to be OK now -- and CPS & LE should have done less.

Should CPS, LE, doctors, neighbors, anyone have done less for Adam Herrman? Erika Parsons? Zahra Baker? Noah McIntosh? Mary & Elvin in Georgia?

Consider -- what if medical staff & CPS did more for Gypsy?

Generally, posters here are seeking more protection for children -- not less.

Sorta confused by some of the posts here.

JMHO YMMV

 

[Simply Southern]

RSBM. The issue is, it's not clear what treatment the child received when he was seen by the original Dr. I would be surprised if the child was allowed to leave the Dr. office with a >105 fever (the Dr. could be at risk for law suits if the child was allowed to leave and then seized or worse) without being given Tylenol or something to control the fever (antipyretic). If the child did receive such medication, then you would expect the fever to have "broke" a short time later, which matches the time that the mother said the child's fever had gone down and he was playing with his siblings. The problem is, just because an antipyretic is successful at reducing the fever, there could still be a dangerous undiagnosed condition that needs further treatment. Which is why the Dr. was insistent on the mother taking the child to the Emergency Room for further workup. IMO.

They took the child to the Southwestern College of Naturopathic Medicine. I don't think they give any medication, it all natural. Interesting.... wonder why not an MD??
www.scnm.edu


Naturopathy or naturopathic medicine is a form of alternative medicine that employs an array of pseudoscientific practices branded as "natural", "non-invasive", and as promoting "self-healing". The ideology and methods of naturopathy are based on vitalism and folk medicine, rather than evidence-based medicine.[1] Naturopathic practitioners generally recommend against following modern medical practices, including but not limited to medical testing, drugs, vaccinations, and surgery.[2][3][4][5] Instead, naturopathic study and practice rely on unscientific notions, often leading naturopathic doctors to diagnoses and treatments that have no factual merit.[6][7]
from Naturopathy - Wikipedia

 

[Bugurl747]

They took the child to the Southwestern College of Naturopathic Medicine. I don't think they give any medication, it all natural. Interesting.... wonder why not an MD??
www.scnm.edu


Naturopathy or naturopathic medicine is a form of alternative medicine that employs an array of pseudoscientific practices branded as "natural", "non-invasive", and as promoting "self-healing". The ideology and methods of naturopathy are based on vitalism and folk medicine, rather than evidence-based medicine.[1] Naturopathic practitioners generally recommend against following modern medical practices, including but not limited to medical testing, drugs, vaccinations, and surgery.[2][3][4][5] Instead, naturopathic study and practice rely on unscientific notions, often leading naturopathic doctors to diagnoses and treatments that have no factual merit.[6][7]
from Naturopathy - Wikipedia

It is likely they sought care and advice there because it aligned with their view and approach to medicine, MOO.

 

[cobalt sky]

This would set a precedent that parents are not to be trusted at all. It is a slippery slope ....

The doctor was not an MD. Her concern about meningitis turned out to be wrong. Did the child really need to go to the ER when the temp was almost back to normal?

Easy to say "welp it was nothing" weeks after the incident occurred. The Dr. was right to be concerned and act accordingly in the child's best interest.

Did the child really need to go to the ER? Well, I think taking the child to the ER would have been a much better decision than refusing to do so, followed by then refusing to cooperate with DCS, then refusing to cooperate with LE, then refusing to cooperate with SWAT team, then having your door kicked in and put in handcuffs while all 3 children are taken away from you, then having to spend $$$ on attorneys to represent you in court to fight to get your kids back, never mind the humiliation to yourselves and your family and also the trauma and suffering of your kids through all of this, and now having to go through psychological testing and heaven knows what else, just to get your kids back, and now literally being under DCS microscope until your youngest child turns 18....yeah, it probably would have been best to just take the child to the ER. IMO.

 

[cobalt sky]

They took the child to the Southwestern College of Naturopathic Medicine. I don't think they give any medication, it all natural. Interesting.... wonder why not an MD??
www.scnm.edu


Naturopathy or naturopathic medicine is a form of alternative medicine that employs an array of pseudoscientific practices branded as "natural", "non-invasive", and as promoting "self-healing". The ideology and methods of naturopathy are based on vitalism and folk medicine, rather than evidence-based medicine.[1] Naturopathic practitioners generally recommend against following modern medical practices, including but not limited to medical testing, drugs, vaccinations, and surgery.[2][3][4][5] Instead, naturopathic study and practice rely on unscientific notions, often leading naturopathic doctors to diagnoses and treatments that have no factual merit.[6][7]
from Naturopathy - Wikipedia

It is likely they sought care and advice there because it aligned with their view and approach to medicine, MOO.

Hmmm I don't know why the mother took the boy there. I think it's because she was avoiding taking him to an actual hospital for some reason. IMO.

 

[Simply Southern]

It is likely they sought care and advice there because it aligned with their view and approach to medicine, MOO.

I agree and I think the person she saw, who was not an MD knew the child was seriously ill. That's the reason for the extensive follow up with the ER and family. When she realised they were not going to take the child, she did the right thing. The child was seriously ill, with RSV, which is life threatening if untreated. Usually IV antibiotics, oxygen, breathing treatments, they could not have cured this with pink amoxicillin.
https://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/rsv-in-babies

The child may have perked up and seemed cooler being outside. However, when the first officers arrived they could hear the the child coughing and later found a different child that had throw up in her bed.

These kids just break my heart.

 

[Breezie]

I agree and I think the person she saw, who was not an MD knew the child was seriously ill. That's the reason for the extensive follow up with the ER and family. When she realised they were not going to take the child, she did the right thing. The child was seriously ill, with RSV, which is life threatening if untreated. Usually IV antibiotics, oxygen, breathing treatments, they could not have cured this with pink amoxicillin.
https://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/rsv-in-babies

The child may have perked up and seemed cooler being outside. However, when the first officers arrived they could hear the the child coughing and later found a different child that had throw up in her bed.

These kids just break my heart.

They heard someone coughing, the child was supposedly sleeping.

Why could there not have been an option to go to urgent care first thing in the morning? If the fever had abated, would waiting a few hours make a difference? This would not be in the international news if there were not legitimate concerns about the way the whole situation was handled.

 

[Simply Southern]

They heard someone coughing, the child was supposedly sleeping.

Why could there not have been an option to go to urgent care first thing in the morning? If the fever had abated, would waiting a few hours make a difference? This would not be in the international news if there were not legitimate concerns about the way the whole situation was handled.

Yes, I agree if the fever was actually down, and based on the ER diagnosis the child had RSV a very serious life threatening respiratory virus, I'll bet the farm it was 105 or above. They gave the child no meds, not even Tylenol, not much chance it went down. With a 105 temp, seizures, brain damage, death can result in temps over 103 in children.
They had a naturalist practitioner so concerned, she called the ER, the family and finally DSS.

 

[Bugurl747]

Hmmm I don't know why the mother took the boy there. I think it's because she was avoiding taking him to an actual hospital for some reason. IMO.

There could be some darker reason as to why she didn't take him to the hospital or it's possible that she hates modern medicine?

I'm curious as to what the percentage of people that don't subscribe to modern medicine that seek out alternative medicine and providers vs seeing an actual medical physician or go to a hospital?

Where I live we have Amish and Mennonite populations and the hospital is an absolute last resort. More often then not they leave AMA, refuse certain procedures and prescribed medicines. MOO

 

[Simply Southern]

There could be some darker reason as to why she didn't take him to the hospital or it's possible that she hates modern medicine?

I'm curious as to what the percentage of people that don't subscribe to modern medicine that seek out alternative medicine and providers vs seeing an actual medical physician or go to a hospital?

Where I live we have Amish and Mennonite populations and the hospital is an absolute last resort. More often then not they leave AMA, refuse certain procedures and prescribed medicines. MOO

Yes, IMHO, why the judge ordered the psychological evals. I have many friends that live naturally, off the grid, naturalists, however, they do seek medical treatment... open heart surgeries, knee replacements, as you say as a last resort.

IMHO, if religious reasons were a factor, the Arizona DCS Oversite Group would have made sure the attorneys sited this. They seem to be advising the family on what to do. They even showed up at the visitation.

This whole thing gets stranger. I sure hope and pray these kids are taken care of.

 

[Breezie]

Why Police Were Called for 2-Year-Old Arizona Boy With Fever

Inside Edition includes interview with parents and attorney

 

[katydid23]

This is the paragraph directly following the that paragraph.

One of the parent’s attorneys asked the DCS investigator to outline specific steps the parents must follow to get their children back. The caseworker said she couldn’t remember any of them.

I have to keep in mind thst the description of that conversation is coming from the parents attorney. I think it might be framed in a way that Is not positive towards DCS

I am quite sure thst the parents were already informed ,a few times , about what they needed to do to regain custody. There is an entire large department dedicated solely to keeping families together.

Just because the abuse investigator did not have that information off the top of their head—it doesn’t mean the case workers had not fully informed the parents what steps they needed to take