4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 75

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BeginnerSleuther said:
So then there'd be blood from the glove OR he took the time to change his gloves, which we'd have to factor into the 15 minutes, along with the missing footprints. It has to be one or the other, IMO.
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How much time would it take to take off the used gloves, put them in a plastic bag, slip on new gloves, take booties off of his shoes, throw the in the bag, and then walk out of the blood room to his escape route?
 
PrairieWind said:
I don't think it is out of the question at all to consider that they sheath was left behind on purpose. When we first heard about the sheath I thought it seemed odd a killer would leave it.
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Me too because I assumed the sheath was attached to his pants somehow. Why would it be sitting around and not kept on his clothing so he could pull the knife out when needed? And why wouldn't he notice it was missing when he was done with the knife and wanted to put it back in the sheath for his exit?
 
Caylee Advocate said:
Just a "what if" that came to mind... what if BK had loaned his car to someone, and his K Bar was in the vehicle along with his cell phone? I am just tacking a little on to your last sentence. ;) Nice seein' ya' kd23.
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I'll just say that if BK had leant his car, let's say overnight for 12th/13th November, and he kept his K Bar in the glove box and, let's say his phone had slid between the seats and he forgot about it, then:

a) Would he not have contacted police once the call went out Re elantras, given those circumstances (loaned car overnight 12/13th Nov,large knife in car)? Heck, would he not have perhaps contacted police even before that? But let's say he forgot what night he leant the car or was not following the case or missed the call out for elantras; and/or
b) Would he not have told his alibi by now? Would his defense be obligated to inform LE about this alibi and the name of the person he loaned the car (and by extension the knife) to? Because if he really had leant his car in those circumstances then that person needs to be investigated ASAP, as per danger to the public. Surely he would have wanted to be interviewed at initial arrest and spilled the beans if this was true? MOO

Anyway, MOO, I doubt he leant his car that night whilst having a kbar in it and his phone.
 
Caylee Advocate said:
Just a "what if" that came to mind... what if BK had loaned his car to someone, and his K Bar was in the vehicle along with his cell phone? I am just tacking a little on to your last sentence. ;) Nice seein' ya' kd23.
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I'd imagine he'd have told investigators about loaning his car, knife and phone out the night of the murders. IF it had happened. And we'd have another suspect to be sleuthing.
Nice seeing' you too, lol
 
<modsnip - quoted post was rude response to another member>

1. Can't explain the DNA. IMO, this is the strongest piece of evidence. I have read and can agree that it is possible to leave trace DNA without touching something.

2. Is there evidence his phone put him at the house months before? What I've read is that his phone put him in the area, which can mean a host of things. We also don't know that he never attended any of their parties in the past. I think we've all put together a narrative in which he doesn't know these kids and everyone's a stranger, but there's no evidence of that that we know of. He might have crashed one or two of their parties, maybe even posing as a Door Dash driver as was brought up earlier during discussion of the DD warrants.

3. Don't have explanation for the dark period.

4. The gloves he wore at grocery stores, like most of America during the pandemic? I could explain it as a hold-out from the pandemic. I still will occasionally see someone wearing gloves out and about.

5. Flight to PA? It wasn't a flight to PA (in either sense of the word). A graduate student going home for the holidays is easily explainable. In fact, had he NOT gone home for the holidays, to me, that would be more suspicious and I'm sure it would get people wondering if his family wants him home or if he stayed to check in on his crime, etc. This is the least suspicious thing in this case, IMO.

6. He cleaned his car after a long road trip that soiled it. I would do the same thing after a cross-country road trip in the winter. You get salt, mud, and road debris all over your car. Again, one of the least suspicious things, IMO.

7. As others pointed out, we don't know the background of this. Is this something he did regularly? We don't know what police found in the neighbor's trash, do we? Had he thrown away bloody clothes in the neighbor's trash or something incriminating, I might agree. But I don't believe that was the case. So maybe this was something they did for whatever reason. Maybe his parents trash was full and the neighbors wasn't. Without more information, I don't think this conclusively points to guilt in a murder 6 weeks earlier.

All above speculation and in MOO, but I do think all the explanations are plausible.
 
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NCWatcher said:
True, but why cite a weaker piece of evidence vs a stronger one? Not that the print cited is not relevant but a "second-pass" latent print? If there were other footprints as so many here seem to think, why not cite a "stronger" one? The only answers it seems I've seen here are, in effect, "they didn't want to" or "they didn't have to."
JMO
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Why is it weaker? but regardless I think it's clear. The print was mentioned to corroborate the time line and the mention of it assisted with the case for probable cause for arrest. Discussed in detail thread #72. MOO
 
katydid23 said:
How much time would it take to take off the used gloves, put them in a plastic bag, slip on new gloves, take booties off of his shoes, throw the in the bag, and then walk out of the blood room to his escape route?
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Depends, but I can't see him standing in the middle of the crime scene and doing this, especially the booties. He would have had to have had extra gloves and a baggie in his pockets and have had the presence of mind after the murders but before exiting to make the change. Based on how fast we assume he high tailed it out of there, I think he would have been too frantic. It also still begs the question, why no blood on hsi shoes as he walked out except for that one print that wasn't even seen the first time?

MOO.
 
BeginnerSleuther said:
Depends, but I can't see him standing in the middle of the crime scene and doing this, especially the booties. He would have had to have had extra gloves and a baggie in his pockets and have had the presence of mind after the murders but before exiting to make the change. Based on how fast we assume he high tailed it out of there, I think he would have been too frantic. It also still begs the question, why no blood on hsi shoes as he walked out except for that one print that wasn't even seen the first time?

MOO.
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If he was studying criminology and forensics at the PHD level, why wouldn't he think to have a baggie and extra gloves in his pocket?

As to the presence of mind, he must have been somewhat calm, if the crime scene did not have much of his blood/DNA left behind.

SOMEONE stabbed these 4 victims, so someone must have had the presence of mind not to leave a lot of forensics behind. It makers more sense to me that a PHD in criminology was that careful, compared to it being a drunken frat boy or a crazy stalker or neighbor.

According to DM, he was not frantic. He was walking with purpose, but was not panicky.

If he had booties on over his shoes, there wouldn't have been any blood present. He may have taken them off as he left the bloody bedroom....Maybe he did step in a small spot of blood on the way out and leave that partial print?

But there is a strong possibility there are other prints we have not learned about yet. The PCA is not all inclusive.
 
Caylee Advocate said:
Just a "what if" that came to mind... what if BK had loaned his car to someone, and his K Bar was in the vehicle along with his cell phone? I am just tacking a little on to your last sentence. ;) Nice seein' ya' kd23.
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And this same person turned BK's phone on and off of airplane mode while they had it? Why not just leave his phone on since it would point police away from the "real killer"? Personally, I don't see him being close enough with anyone to loan them his car. That's just me though.

ETA idea of just leaving phone on.
 
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jepop said:
The second half of your post made me think of another matter that may be an issue for the defense. Assuming for the moment that the phone evidence we are aware of so far- just the pings - makes it into evidence (and not speculating on what else may come out re BK's movements from the forensic analysis of his actual phone etc) and the defense present a normalising argument for the at least 12 times BK's phone pinged in the vicinity of King Road prior to Nov 13th (ie late night shopping,jogging, insomniac late night driving etc); then how will it look that between Nov 14th and mid DEc when BK left for PA with his Dad, his phone never pinged again in that area? Did his regular/normalised activity prior to Nov 13th just suddenly stop? Did he continue the driving/shopping/jogging but with phone turned off? Did the battery keep dying? Was coverage suddenly sketchy? In a nutshell, to my mind it is not a good look, if the defense tries to normalise BK's late night sojourns to Moscow only to have to explain their sudden cessation after Nov 13th. MOO
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This would depend on how often he was in the area. Every two or three weeks or every day just prior to the crime? MOO

We really do not know his movements between the crime and his trip. MOO

He may have had more than one phone. MOO

The phone number in the att warrant is redacted:

Three unknown numbers in the verizon and tmobile warrants:

One Verizon warrant and one ATT warrant are completely sealed:

And the ATT GPS coordinates warrant gives no Ph#:

If he was stalking those 12 times, why didn't he turn his phone off? MOO

From my reading of cell coverage in Moscow, it is poor in certain areas...not suddenly...according to users, the coverage drops out depending on the area you are in and your provider.
www.cellreception.com

Who's the Best Carrier In Moscow? 27 People Agree It's This.

The best signal in the neighborhood is...
www.cellreception.com

People might have avoided the King Road area due to heavy police/press presence and the murderer/s not being apprehended yet. MOO

Personal experience: I was in Gainesville during Rolling: After the murders, many people left school and went home. My program did not allow that option so I stayed home and did not venture out unless absolutely necessary. I went to school and back not stopping anywhere. I did not go out for anything other than school lectures/labs, grocery food and gas. I particularly remember not wanting to go to the grocery store right down my street (I did go, but rarely). I avoided traveling anywhere near the crime scene locations. MOO
 
katydid23 said:
If he was studying criminology and forensics at the PHD level, why wouldn't he think to have a baggie and extra gloves in his pocket?

As to the presence of mind, he must have been somewhat calm, if the crime scene did not have much of his blood/DNA left behind.

SOMEONE stabbed these 4 victims, so someone must have had the presence of mind not to leave a lot of forensics behind. It makers more sense to me that a PHD in criminology was that careful, compared to it being a drunken frat boy or a crazy stalker or neighbor.

According to DM, he was not frantic. He was walking with purpose, but was not panicky.

If he had booties on over his shoes, there wouldn't have been any blood present. He may have taken them off as he left the bloody bedroom....Maybe he did step in a small spot of blood on the way out and leave that partial print?

But there is a strong possibility there are other prints we have not learned about yet. The PCA is not all inclusive.
Click to expand...

I'm not ruling out that he did exactly as you say. I'm just saying given how fast he left, I'm having trouble picturing it. But maybe it's true. It would still have to be factored in time-wise. How long it takes depends on his level of calm and how methodical or obsessive he was about it.
 
BeginnerSleuther said:
2. Is there evidence his phone put him at the house months before? What I've read is that his phone put him in the area, which can mean a host of things. We also don't know that he never attended any of their parties in the past. I think we've all put together a narrative in which he doesn't know these kids and everyone's a stranger, but there's no evidence of that that we know of. He might have crashed one or two of their parties, maybe even posing as a Door Dash driver as was brought up earlier during discussion of the DD warrants.

<snipped for focus>
Click to expand...

I believe the only actual evidence we have seen is his phone putting him in the area, as stated in the PCA. I am wondering how accurate SG's statement about BK's phone trying to connect to the King Road house's network will turn out to be. So far, his statements have mostly ended up being correct. If that really happened, then they've got proof he was pretty darned close to the house rather than just in the neighborhood. We shall see, eventually.
 
Nila Aella said:
This would depend on how often he was in the area. Every two or three weeks or every day just prior to the crime? MOO

We really do not know his movements between the crime and his trip. MOO

He may have had more than one phone. MOO

The phone number in the att warrant is redacted:

Three unknown numbers in the verizon and tmobile warrants:

One Verizon warrant and one ATT warrant are completely sealed:

And the ATT GPS coordinates warrant gives no Ph#:

If he was stalking those 12 times, why didn't he turn his phone off? MOO

From my reading of cell coverage in Moscow, it is poor in certain areas...not suddenly...according to users, the coverage drops out depending on the area you are in and your provider.
www.cellreception.com

Who's the Best Carrier In Moscow? 27 People Agree It's This.

The best signal in the neighborhood is...
www.cellreception.com

People might have avoided the King Road area due to heavy police/press presence and the murderer/s not being apprehended yet. MOO

Personal experience: I was in Gainesville during Rolling: After the murders, many people left school and went home. My program did not allow that option so I stayed home and did not venture out unless absolutely necessary. I went to school and back not stopping anywhere. I did not go out for anything other than school lectures/labs, grocery food and gas. I particularly remember not wanting to go to the grocery store right down my street (I did go, but rarely). I avoided traveling anywhere near the crime scene locations. MOO
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All possibilities. I'll only note that re the possibilities of stalking, there is mention in the PCA where the affiant opines that in his experience stalkers sometimes do not turn off their phones when stalking because they do not intend to committ a crime on those occasions. That's proof of nothing ofcourse, but was included I think to present a leanrned hypothesis on why a suspect might turn off his phone if the intention was to do more then watch. MOO

Thanks for the links to the phone warants. I haven't studied all of them yet for BK. I only noticed the one that was for the BK phone forensics from the Moscow lab and that was related to the number LE ended up tracking/getting ping data for that was included in the PCA. I'll have a look at them at some point. According to return of inventories from WA and PA only one phone was discovered IMO but I guess that doesn't rule out BK maybe having another that he ditched before arrest. MOO

ETA: re the warrants in your post. I will look but at least one of them has to be the so called geo fence warrant that LE got probably within days of the crime? It may be the completely sealed one or it may be another dated in the immediate days after the murders. The warrant would be sealed ofcourse on the basis of privacy. The PCA notes that BK's number did not come up in the results of a warrant that was issued very early on. Later when LE got the 23rd December warrant from ATT for BK's number and accessed the historical pings it became clear why BK's number had not come up in that early Geo fence warrant. And that makes me think that one of the ATT warrants (or possibly two? - per PCA LE got two warrants on 23 rd DEc, one for historical data, and one for pen register and track and trace for the BK number) in your list will be for the ping data from BK's phone. MOO
 
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BeginnerSleuther said:
Already addressed, but this was my initial thought too. But someone else said in this thread that they don't believe the house was bloody, just the rooms in which the murders occurred. So my point is, if the house wasn't bloody, then his clean hands must have left fingerprints all over the place. And if they didn't and we want to assume he wore gloves, then I would assume the gloves were wiped clean and/or he changed gloves to leave if we really think he didn't leave blood places other than the site of the murders. MOO.
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After thinking about what you wrote above, I'm wondering if the killer had to touch anything inside the house after the first murders.

It's plausible that both bedroom doors were open--the 3rd floor if Kaylee went to Maddie's room with the intent to return to her own room. If
schooling said:
This is purely my opinion but jurors aren't going to dismiss all evidence just because one piece of evidence is shaky. There's only so many coincidences you have to be able to accept.

I know there was someone in here doing probability calculations. Can they tell me the probability of...
  • a car that looks like yours with no front plate (like your car) on video heading east towards the murder seen in the dead of night.

  • And coincidentally your cell phone is also headed east in the same direction.

  • And coincidentally your phone battery dies within the window of time the murders were committed?

  • And coincidentally someone with bushy eye brows and around your height is seen inside.

  • And coincidentally that car is seen leaving the scene at a high speed.

  • And coincidentally the phone is turned back on and the car is seen heading into your apartment building.

  • And coincidentally there's evidence of you being in the area multiple times of the murder scene.

  • And coincidentally you were pulled over in the area at night in August.

  • Did I mention that your DNA is on a piece of the murder weapon inside of the house? Do we know the probability of DNA. 1 in how many billions? Is this a multiplier to the above?

In the 530,000 minutes that make up a year. BK just happens to be in the area with a piece of him in the house (via DNA) on the night 4 people are murdered. Is BK the unluckiest guy in the world or what?

All MOO, of course.
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I've been told that attorney's like to have jurors with my profession. However, I could be that juror. I always wonder which is worse--a guilty person going free or an innocent person rotting in jail or worse, being executed--and the guilty person being free.

If I had only the information currently available, I'd have a hard time convicting BK. There would be a lot of coincidences, but there are also a lot of holes. I would definitely need more concrete evidence. At a minimum, I'd want the prosecutor to prove that BK's car was the one at the scene and GPS activity that he was at least on the same street as the house on the 12 times he was in the area prior to the murders.

Far better would be his DNA in the house or the victims' DNA on something of his. There is little chance I'd find him not guilty with either of the above.
 
U.N. Known said:
After thinking about what you wrote above, I'm wondering if the killer had to touch anything inside the house after the first murders.

It's plausible that both bedroom doors were open--the 3rd floor if Kaylee went to Maddie's room with the intent to return to her own room. If

I've been told that attorney's like to have jurors with my profession. However, I could be that juror. I always wonder which is worse--a guilty person going free or an innocent person rotting in jail or worse, being executed--and the guilty person being free.

If I had only the information currently available, I'd have a hard time convicting BK. There would be a lot of coincidences, but there are also a lot of holes. I would definitely need more concrete evidence. At a minimum, I'd want the prosecutor to prove that BK's car was the one at the scene and GPS activity that he was at least on the same street as the house on the 12 times he was in the area prior to the murders.

Far better would be his DNA in the house or the victims' DNA on something of his. There is little chance I'd find him not guilty with either of the above.
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What specific holes?
 
maskedwoman said:
I believe the only actual evidence we have seen is his phone putting him in the area, as stated in the PCA. I am wondering how accurate SG's statement about BK's phone trying to connect to the King Road house's network will turn out to be. So far, his statements have mostly ended up being correct. If that really happened, then they've got proof he was pretty darned close to the house rather than just in the neighborhood. We shall see, eventually.
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Question for anyone: Do we know exactly what SG meant by BK's phone trying to connect to the King Road's network? Was it open, without a password?

I'm often alerted to open wifi networks, but I've never connected to one unless I chose to do so and/or signed in previously and turned on auto-connect.

Would he even have that information without knowing BK's phone number? Even if he somehow had the phone number, are all of the network attempts available? If the Intenet company keeps track, would that be available without a warrant?
 
jepop said:
Me too because I assumed the sheath was attached to his pants somehow. Why would it be sitting around and not kept on his clothing so he could pull the knife out when needed? And why wouldn't he notice it was missing when he was done with the knife and wanted to put it back in the sheath for his exit?
Click to expand...

I don't feel he would have worn the sheath. It's not something that is overly comfortable, if you're not used to them and there isn't a lot of room in a small car for a sheathed knife over a foot long on your hip.

I have spent time with first time hunters and people who have had to put down livestock for the first time and adrenaline compounded with the reality of death and blood cause them to react much differently than you expect.

I think his game plan was simplistic in the sense that he expected his victims were asleep, which didn't happen, the dog may have been agitated, a roommate reportedly shouted for quiet, as well as the reality of taking human lives very likely distracted him from small details, like the sheath.
 
BeginnerSleuther said:
1. Can't explain the DNA. IMO, this is the strongest piece of evidence. I have read and can agree that it is possible to leave trace DNA without touching something.

2. Is there evidence his phone put him at the house months before? What I've read is that his phone put him in the area, which can mean a host of things. We also don't know that he never attended any of their parties in the past. I think we've all put together a narrative in which he doesn't know these kids and everyone's a stranger, but there's no evidence of that that we know of. He might have crashed one or two of their parties, maybe even posing as a Door Dash driver as was brought up earlier during discussion of the DD warrants.

3. Don't have explanation for the dark period.

4. The gloves he wore at grocery stores, like most of America during the pandemic? I could explain it as a hold-out from the pandemic. I still will occasionally see someone wearing gloves out and about.

5. Flight to PA? It wasn't a flight to PA (in either sense of the word). A graduate student going home for the holidays is easily explainable. In fact, had he NOT gone home for the holidays, to me, that would be more suspicious and I'm sure it would get people wondering if his family wants him home or if he stayed to check in on his crime, etc. This is the least suspicious thing in this case, IMO.

6. He cleaned his car after a long road trip that soiled it. I would do the same thing after a cross-country road trip in the winter. You get salt, mud, and road debris all over your car. Again, one of the least suspicious things, IMO.

7. As others pointed out, we don't know the background of this. Is this something he did regularly? We don't know what police found in the neighbor's trash, do we? Had he thrown away bloody clothes in the neighbor's trash or something incriminating, I might agree. But I don't believe that was the case. So maybe this was something they did for whatever reason. Maybe his parents trash was full and the neighbors wasn't. Without more information, I don't think this conclusively points to guilt in a murder 6 weeks earlier.

All above speculation and in MOO, but I do think all the explanations are plausible.
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As speculation, this is fine. But juries are instructed not to speculate, but to base their conclusions from the evidence and reasonable inferences from the evidence. If the jury is to find reasonable doubt, the defense will have to produce testimony to support an alternative purpose for a lot of adverse facts. MOO.
 
U.N. Known said:
Question for anyone: Do we know exactly what SG meant by BK's phone trying to connect to the King Road's network? Was it open, without a password?

I'm often alerted to open wifi networks, but I've never connected to one unless I chose to do so and/or signed in previously and turned on auto-connect.

Would he even have that information without knowing BK's phone number? Even if he somehow had the phone number, are all of the network attempts available? If the Intenet company keeps track, would that be available without a warrant?
Click to expand...
I'm not going to torture anyone by making a terrible hash of the technical terms, LOL. But, you know how you often get a list of available networks and whether they require passwords? As it was explained a few weeks ago, the modem has a record of all the devices that check in and get the network information, even if the device does not end up signing in. That info is then available for a certain period of time. There is a physical limitation to how far wifi signals can travel. So, based on what SG said, we can infer that (at least to his understanding) BK's phone was close enough to their modem (and house) for the modem to identify itself to BK's phone.
 
katydid23 said:
Me too because I assumed the sheath was attached to his pants somehow. Why would it be sitting around and not kept on his clothing so he could pull the knife out when needed? And why wouldn't he notice it was missing when he was done with the knife and wanted to put it back in the sheath for his exit?
Click to expand...
The sheath is certainly designed to be attached to pants/belt. What he wore that night has been discussed quite a bit. Given the amount of blood, the thought has been that he had to have worn coveralls or something he could strip off, or he would have gotten a decent amount of blood on his clothes. That would also have minimized any DNA transfer back and forth. That idea came up again when they seized a dickie's tag from his apartment, because they make a lot of coveralls and work clothes. DM described the intruder as wearing black, so the idea is that he perhaps wore black coveralls and discarded them later. Dickies happens to make those, but it's been determined that those do not have any beltloops. Plus, the k-bar is large enough that it would be uncomfortable while driving. So it's been suggested he may have carried it, sheath and all.
 
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