4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 76

[Cool Cats]

Tulip Break.
Just saw this. "Ethan's Smile" tulips are offered again. Ethan's family is going to volunteer at Tulip Valley Farms for a bit in April.
"Starting in April, Tulip Valley Farms will offer the "Ethan's Smile" tulip bulb mix."

'Ethan's Smile': Family of Ethan Chapin partners with Tulip Valley Farms for new scholarship foundation

MOUNT VERNON, Wash. - Stacy Chapin says life without her son Ethan just won't be the same.

www.kxly.com

Nice, I'm Nobody!

Ethan's Smile - Tulip Valley

Bulb mix will ship in the Fall of 2023. Yellow and white tulip bulb mix Each Set comes in bundles of 25

tulipvalley.com

Ethan's Smile - Tulip Valley

In the fall of 2022 we were approached about creating a tulip mix in honor of Ethan Chapin, a native of Skagit Valley.

tulipvalley.com

Ethan's yellow and white tulips:



Ethan was a beloved citizen of Conway and Mount Vernon, that like so many other local kids, worked in the fields that make Skagit Valley so spectacular. While working the 2021 Tulip Festival on Andrew’s crew Ethan set the bar for showing up with a smile and making everyone else happy to be on the job, regardless of the weather or the work.

As a strong kid with a big heart, Ethan was the kind of guy who would do the hardest jobs and never complain. Usually, with a smile on his face.

After Ethan’s death, his friends and family reach out to Andrew to see if there was something they could do to memorialize Ethan’s beautiful life.

“We couldn’t name a tulip after Ethan because that’s actually really bureaucratic and involves a lot of international organizations,” Andrew said. “But what we came up with is even better, I think.”

What they came up with is the Ethan’s Smile tulip bulb mix in his honor. This mix of yellow and white tulips has already been planted in several areas around Skagit Valley, meaningful to Ethan and his family, as well as the University of Idaho.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Imo jmo I don't think that there is anything we can post here that will hurt the prosecution's case in this trial. In fact, I think that if anything our questioning points of the evidence that we know of at this time might even help the prosecution to see a hole they wouldn't have otherwise considered. Sure it might be out there crazy, but if I were either side of this, I'd be scouring everything for 'what did I miss?' points. Online and IRL.

Once we see what the defense is going to do with the evidence, I know I'll be looking for the same holes. I just don't know what the defense will say yet, so hard to question it. We have very little to go on, and lots of disparate pieces that could play out in ways we can't predict. idk jmo imo.

Imo jmo I think it is important to look at the totality of the evidence and to look specifically at each piece of evidence as well. In the same way that in medical diagnosis (@BeginnerSleuther correct me if I'm wrong here), the doctor considers all of the symptoms and sees one thing, but among the multiple symptoms, there may be the anomaly that changes everything. I've accidentally found a situation where someone who was a friend was embezzling - only one check over several months set me on the trail. What if I'd only looked at a sample instead of everything? What if I'd not pursued it or made an easy excuse - both of those thing were options, but by looking at it objectively, I did the right thing in the end. In Kohberger's case, the defense and prosecution will not just build their own case, but they will bolster their own cases by considering everything they can find - not just that which is to their benefit.

All that said, I think that the study and/or practice of any field that requires a high degree of objective thinking and analysis (criminology, law, accounting, medicine, fraud investigation, etc.) naturally teaches us to look more impersonally and critically at information on offer.

Sometimes that may seem hurtful, especially to those who've been involved personally. The objective perspective is never meant to hurt or offend, but it happens. I hate that, and if I've inadvertently done that, I apologize, but imo jmo it's not done because I or others don't care or want to see a quadruple murderer walk the streets; it's because we don't let emotion cloud our judgment so much that we miss the weak spots.

As @Bogbacal2 wisely said above, we all want the same things in this case: justice for everyone involved. IMO JMO once we see the evidence presented at the hearing in June and hear the defense's case, I think we'll all come together on what 'justice' means. imo jmo I hope so.

some add'l information, for those unfamiliar with the ABA rules of professional conduct, some of this might surprise, too: https//www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/rule_3_3_candor_toward_the_tribunal/

some add'l information re preparing to make an argument and defend:

http://https//ablconnect.harvard.edu/defend-model-or-argument

It is also important to be able to defend your argument against those who have an opposing view. Often, this involves acknowledging the contrarian viewpoint and providing counter-arguments to convince them otherwise.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Imo jmo I don't think that there is anything we can post here that will hurt the prosecution's case in this trial. In fact, I think that if anything our questioning points of the evidence that we know of at this time might even help the prosecution to see a hole they wouldn't have otherwise considered. Sure it might be out there crazy, but if I were either side of this, I'd be scouring everything for 'what did I miss?' points. Online and IRL.

Once we see what the defense is going to do with the evidence, I know I'll be looking for the same holes. I just don't know what the defense will say yet, so hard to question it. We have very little to go on, and lots of disparate pieces that could play out in ways we can't predict. idk jmo imo.

Imo jmo I think it is important to look at the totality of the evidence and to look specifically at each piece of evidence as well. In the same way that in medical diagnosis (@BeginnerSleuther correct me if I'm wrong here), the doctor considers all of the symptoms and sees one thing, but among the multiple symptoms, there may be the anomaly that changes everything. I've accidentally found a situation where someone who was a friend was embezzling - only one check over several months set me on the trail. What if I'd only looked at a sample instead of everything? What if I'd not pursued it or made an easy excuse - both of those thing were options, but by looking at it objectively, I did the right thing in the end. In Kohberger's case, the defense and prosecution will not just build their own case, but they will bolster their own cases by considering everything they can find - not just that which is to their benefit.

All that said, I think that the study and/or practice of any field that requires a high degree of objective thinking and analysis (criminology, law, accounting, medicine, fraud investigators, etc.) naturally teaches us to look more impersonally and critically at information on offer.

Sometimes that may seem hurtful, especially to those who've been involved personally. The objective perspective is never meant to hurt or offend, but it happens. I hate that, and if I've inadvertently done that, I apologize, but imo jmo it's not done because I or others don't care or want to see a quadruple murderer walk the streets; it's because we don't let emotion cloud our judgment so much that we miss the weak spots.

As @Bogbacal2 wisely said above, we all want the same things in this case: justice for everyone involved. IMO JMO once we see the evidence presented at the hearing in June and hear the defense's case, I think we'll all come together on what 'justice' means. imo jmo I hope so.

some add'l information, for those unfamiliar with the ABA rules of professional conduct, some of this might surprise, too: https//www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/rule_3_3_candor_toward_the_tribunal/

some add'l information re preparing to make an argument and defend:

http://https//ablconnect.harvard.edu/defend-model-or-argument

It is also important to be able to defend your argument against those who have an opposing view. Often, this involves acknowledging the contrarian viewpoint and providing counter-arguments to convince them otherwise.

Interesting that you brought the medical analogy. In medical terms what you describe is often termed as "looking for the zebra." It's a warning to not make a diagnosis more complicated than its initial presentation - as well as a warning to keep your eyes out for the unexpected.
I hope I'm not seeing the shadow of a zebra here but we should explore every possibility.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

@schooling <modsnip> I love your analogy of poking holes aka finding mistakes. It's the defense's job to poke holes in the evidence against her client. From the Brady-Giglio request, Poke Holes files exist. Ideally evidence holes can be plugged.

While I'm in the corner that looks at the totality of the evidence, I've wondered if one piece of evidence is taken away or deemed un-reliable how sure could I be. It depends on which piece. Two pieces of evidence not reliable and I may have to acknowledge doubt even if, in my heart, I believe BK is guilty.

Which is why some of us are focusing on each individual piece of evidence, because it's entirely possible there may be holes and/or one or more pieces will not be allowed to be introduced at trial. Totality of evidence only works if all the evidence is introduced and deemed to be reliable.

MOO.

What if the defendant testified he'd never been at the scene or was in the area for some other reason? His testimony would matter little to me bc his DNA was found at the crime scene and a witness testified she saw him there. If I could not consider DNA nor the witness, I'm left with the car and cell pings and maybe a shoe size. I doubt BK would testify. I trust there is more evidence I haven't heard yet. I trust the prosecution. What-ifs drive me until June.

My speculation only.
JMO

Thus far, a witness hasn't said she saw him there. She said she saw a tall black shadowy figure with bushy brows. That likely describes much of the student population. So you're left with the DNA. If the DNA evidence isn't solid for any reason, you've got nothing to place him inside the house.
MOO.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Interesting that you brought the medical analogy. In medical terms what you describe is often termed as "looking for the zebra." It's a warning to not make a diagnosis more complicated than its initial presentation - as well as a warning to keep your eyes out for the unexpected.
I hope I'm not seeing the shadow of a zebra here but we should explore every possibility.

I had forgotten that expression lol. There's such a fine balance between looking for the zebra that is not there and spotting the zebra that is there but not easily seen. I am not a doctor, however, so it was a spitball analogy. My background/experience is financial/legal/fraud, so I have to check myself all the time. Imo jmo this case may be more than one animal. And in making the case, I would look for all of the evidence that supported my case, I'd do the happy dance, and then I'd look for every possible misstep - and that is not about looking for a zebra where there isn't one. that's knowing that there may only be a baby zebra way off on the horizon, but it's a zebra nonetheless, and I don't want to be surprised when the zebra shows up. and apropos of nothing, why did they use zebra instead of something much less benign?

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Imo jmo I don't think that there is anything we can post here that will hurt the prosecution's case in this trial. In fact, I think that if anything our questioning points of the evidence that we know of at this time might even help the prosecution to see a hole they wouldn't have otherwise considered. Sure it might be out there crazy, but if I were either side of this, I'd be scouring everything for 'what did I miss?' points. Online and IRL.

Once we see what the defense is going to do with the evidence, I know I'll be looking for the same holes. I just don't know what the defense will say yet, so hard to question it. We have very little to go on, and lots of disparate pieces that could play out in ways we can't predict. idk jmo imo.

Imo jmo I think it is important to look at the totality of the evidence and to look specifically at each piece of evidence as well. In the same way that in medical diagnosis (@BeginnerSleuther correct me if I'm wrong here), the doctor considers all of the symptoms and sees one thing, but among the multiple symptoms, there may be the anomaly that changes everything. I've accidentally found a situation where someone who was a friend was embezzling - only one check over several months set me on the trail. What if I'd only looked at a sample instead of everything? What if I'd not pursued it or made an easy excuse - both of those thing were options, but by looking at it objectively, I did the right thing in the end. In Kohberger's case, the defense and prosecution will not just build their own case, but they will bolster their own cases by considering everything they can find - not just that which is to their benefit.

All that said, I think that the study and/or practice of any field that requires a high degree of objective thinking and analysis (criminology, law, accounting, medicine, fraud investigation, etc.) naturally teaches us to look more impersonally and critically at information on offer.

Sometimes that may seem hurtful, especially to those who've been involved personally. The objective perspective is never meant to hurt or offend, but it happens. I hate that, and if I've inadvertently done that, I apologize, but imo jmo it's not done because I or others don't care or want to see a quadruple murderer walk the streets; it's because we don't let emotion cloud our judgment so much that we miss the weak spots.

As @Bogbacal2 wisely said above, we all want the same things in this case: justice for everyone involved. IMO JMO once we see the evidence presented at the hearing in June and hear the defense's case, I think we'll all come together on what 'justice' means. imo jmo I hope so.

some add'l information, for those unfamiliar with the ABA rules of professional conduct, some of this might surprise, too: https//www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/rule_3_3_candor_toward_the_tribunal/

some add'l information re preparing to make an argument and defend:

http://https//ablconnect.harvard.edu/defend-model-or-argument

It is also important to be able to defend your argument against those who have an opposing view. Often, this involves acknowledging the contrarian viewpoint and providing counter-arguments to convince them otherwise.

Question to me BBM. That is correct. Totality of evidence, much like totality of symptoms matters, but only after each piece can stand up to scrutiny.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Interesting that you brought the medical analogy. In medical terms what you describe is often termed as "looking for the zebra." It's a warning to not make a diagnosis more complicated than its initial presentation - as well as a warning to keep your eyes out for the unexpected.
I hope I'm not seeing the shadow of a zebra here but we should explore every possibility.

A zebra is something that isn't common. Doesn't really have much to do with examining individual symptoms. I think what SGH was saying is that in medicine, you don't look at the totality of symptoms without exploring each symptom on its own and asking if anything else can cause that.

I'll leave it there so we don't veer off-topic. Suffice it to say, I do think that analogy works and in BK's case, each individual piece of evidence has to be examined before we can put it all together. Based on what we know right now, there are a lot of holes and a lot of room for the defense to poke holes and for a jury to wonder.

MOO.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

So you're left with the DNA. If the DNA evidence isn't solid for any reason, you've got nothing to place him inside the house.

and not to be the zebra party pooper, but the DNA is on an inside snap of a sheath. Yeah, it matters, and may be allowed into evidence, but there's a lot that can go wrong and potentially raise doubt imo jmo. imo it's not a compelling piece of proof unless there's other DNA of his at the crime scene or the victims' dna in his car. Then we're talking... imo jmo

in BK's case, each individual piece of evidence has to be examined before we can put it all together. Based on what we know right now, there are a lot of holes and a lot of room for the defense to poke holes and for a jury to wonder.

and imo jmo I hope the jurors chosen care enough to wonder (that doesn't always happen obvs), but I also hope that this is a strong case one way or another, leaving very little doubt. jmo imo.

 

[Helechawagirl]

I thought so, too, though it made me sad that Xana and Maddie had both had to deal with parents with addictions and legal problems. There were a couple of things in there I hadn't heard, but maybe those were the inconsistencies? jmo imo. editing to add: I know what it was I didn't know that really surprised me! THIS:

The Idaho Murders, Part 1: How 4 College Kids Lived and Loved

The brutal murders of four Idaho college students shocked millions. Through social media posts, court records, and other primary sources, author Kathleen Hale forensically reconstructs their lives before the crime, and the night they were killed.

www.vanityfair.com

What happened between Dylan’s encounter and the 911 call hours later remains unknown to the public. The two surviving roommates woke to discover the aftermath of those strange noises and voices in the night. In the kitchen, red liquid dripped down the cabinets, coming from the direction of one of the third-floor bedrooms. Off the hallway lay Ethan and Xana. On the exterior of Xana’s bedroom wall, more red liquid dripped down the concrete foundation. Upstairs, Maddie’s body was sprawled beside Kaylee’s. Investigators later called it the worst crime scene they’d ever seen.

Yea I don’t think this information is necessarily correct; <modsnip - no link>

I think the author assumed a bit of info in order to be creative as this is a feature article—not a news article. My belief is that Kaylee was awake and went to assist Maddie and was killed and fell on the bed, or was in Maddie’s room already and put up a fight, but I’ve been wrong before. JMO

 

[Helechawagirl]

Speculation.

A receipt I remember is a Dickies purchase that all we know is something Dickies brand. Nothing concrete there either.

JMO

Idk. 6 mos in advance? Why would you keep the receipt and how would police find it? Questionable in my opinion. IMO

 

[CSIDreamer]

Idk. 6 mos in advance? Why would you keep the receipt and how would police find it? Questionable in my opinion. IMO

I can't remember if the date of the receipt was disclosed, but I don't think it was. But I agree, doubt he kept it for 6 months +/- a month or two. JMO

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yea I don’t think this information is necessarily correct; <modsnip - no link>

I think the author assumed a bit of info in order to be creative as this is a feature article—not a news article. My belief is that Kaylee was awake and went to assist Maddie and was killed and fell on the bed, or was in Maddie’s room already and put up a fight, but I’ve been wrong before. JMO

I would hope the writer didn't assume, but potentially had inside information confirmed by multiple, if anonymous, legitimate sources. Vanity Fair

But I can't assume any of this is the case. I believed that K & M were up doing girl chat about K's ex and they were calling him together, but that's another leap and obvs idk jmo and I've been wrong before, too.

 

[Karin1974]

Appeals by prosecution are extraordinary. Regardless, if an entire jury finds this guy not guilty I will literally eat my home live on the internet. Yes, eat my home if 12 reasonable people all come to the conclusion that he’s not guilty.

Worst case scenario? IMO a Mistrial because 1 juror. And in that case the prosecutors will be willing to break the 8 retrials record to find him guilty.

MOO

Ha, I thought something similar at the beginning of the OJ trial….gulp!

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Appeals by prosecution are extraordinary. Regardless, if an entire jury finds this guy not guilty I will literally eat my home live on the internet. Yes, eat my home if 12 reasonable people all come to the conclusion that he’s not guilty.

Worst case scenario? IMO a Mistrial because 1 juror. And in that case the prosecutors will be willing to break the 8 retrials record to find him guilty.

MOO

1 juror would cause a hung jury, I'll eat only my hat.

 

[Sundog]

@schooling <modsnip> I love your analogy of poking holes aka finding mistakes. It's the defense's job to poke holes in the evidence against her client. From the Brady-Giglio request, Poke Holes files exist. Ideally evidence holes can be plugged.

While I'm in the corner that looks at the totality of the evidence, I've wondered if one piece of evidence is taken away or deemed un-reliable how sure could I be. It depends on which piece. Two pieces of evidence not reliable and I may have to acknowledge doubt even if, in my heart, I believe BK is guilty. What if the defendant testified he'd never been at the scene or was in the area for some other reason? His testimony would matter little to me bc his DNA was found at the crime scene and a witness testified she saw him there. If I could not consider DNA nor the witness, I'm left with the car and cell pings and maybe a shoe size. I doubt BK would testify. I trust there is more evidence I haven't heard yet. I trust the prosecution. What-ifs drive me until June.

My speculation only.
JMO

I don't think that DM will testify that she saw BK in the house, only that she saw a masked person walk by her room. I also think that the defense will likely be able to discredit DM's testimony if the prosecution makes too much of DM's testimony. I don't think most members of a jury in a death penalty case would be willing to convict someone based on the description of "bushy eyebrows" which is somewhat subjective and vague and also could apply to many people. JMO.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Ha, I thought something similar at the beginning of the OJ trial….gulp!

Your OJ reminder is an excellent case in point imo jmo.

I think of that all the time, the mistakes the prosecution made, the issues with chain of custody re the evidence, the voir dire sinkhole, no gag order, mistakes with witnesses, etc. I think one can be logical and apply the logic to each piece of evidence, not to consider whether we 'believe' it or not, but to consider whether or not it has potential weaknesses where doubt can be raised - imo jmo, that's logical, too.

I question the evidence with this case because 1) I know how important it is to make the case on both sides and 2) we can't look at the totality of the evidence yet. imo jmo

We can only look at the totality of what we know which is not very much at all jmo imo and there is no information at all from the defense, and before I could condemn a man to life in prison, I'd need to hear all the evidence first, with context, so that I knew I'd fullfilled my duty and my conscience was clear imo jmo.

 

[Sundog]

We don't have anything to look at from the defense yet in this case, but I found it interesting to read some MSM articles regarding how BK's attorney, Anne Taylor, presented the defense in another case that she represented. In a case she is well-known for in Idaho, she won an appeal for a retrial based on the testimony of a member of LE who challenged a defense expert witness, and who played a key role in the case. His testimony was later found to be false based on presentations he had made in other settings (training of other LE). Also her team were able to find witnesses who buttressed their case for the defense, etc. It seemed to me that they are strong researchers and do an incredible amount of research both before, during and even after a verdict to make sure that nothing is left unexamined to allow for reasonable doubt and/or appeal.

At this juncture, I don't think this case will be a slam dunk for the prosecution, by any means.

edited typos

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

BK's attorney, Anne Taylor, presented the defense in another case that she represented. In a case she is well-known for in Idaha, she won an appeal for a retrial based on the testimony of a member of LE who challenged a defense expert witness, and who played a key role in the case. His testimony was later found to be false based on presentations he had made in other settings (training of other LE). Also her team were able to find witnesses that buttressed their case for the defense, etc

I'd expect nothing less than a vigorous defense or else it wouldn't be justice.
In the other case, despite the unforeseen lying witness in the 1st trial, the 2nd trial ended up in conviction. Apparently, the evidence was strong enough to convict without the now-excluded (false) testimony.

Jury convicts man in 2nd road rage murder trial

A jury today convicted a North Idaho man of second-degree murder for fatally running over a woman during a 2006 road rage incident with her husband and two daughters.

www.spokesman.com

 

[jjleroche]

Nice, I'm Nobody!

Ethan's Smile - Tulip Valley

Bulb mix will ship in the Fall of 2023. Yellow and white tulip bulb mix Each Set comes in bundles of 25

tulipvalley.com

Ethan's Smile - Tulip Valley

In the fall of 2022 we were approached about creating a tulip mix in honor of Ethan Chapin, a native of Skagit Valley.

tulipvalley.com

Ethan's yellow and white tulips:

View attachment 412512

Ethan was a beloved citizen of Conway and Mount Vernon, that like so many other local kids, worked in the fields that make Skagit Valley so spectacular. While working the 2021 Tulip Festival on Andrew’s crew Ethan set the bar for showing up with a smile and making everyone else happy to be on the job, regardless of the weather or the work.

As a strong kid with a big heart, Ethan was the kind of guy who would do the hardest jobs and never complain. Usually, with a smile on his face.

After Ethan’s death, his friends and family reach out to Andrew to see if there was something they could do to memorialize Ethan’s beautiful life.

“We couldn’t name a tulip after Ethan because that’s actually really bureaucratic and involves a lot of international organizations,” Andrew said. “But what we came up with is even better, I think.”

What they came up with is the Ethan’s Smile tulip bulb mix in his honor. This mix of yellow and white tulips has already been planted in several areas around Skagit Valley, meaningful to Ethan and his family, as well as the University of Idaho.

I'm tearing up, reading these posts about this lovely idea, to memorialise Ethan's life with the "Ethan's Smile" tulip bulb mix, How very precious. (I'm guessing if Ethan is looking down, that smile'd be right there).
Never forgetting E,X,M and K.)

 

[jepop]

Where is the document that is suppose to show BK bought the type of knife that could have been used that night?

If true, very damning circumstantial evidence unless he can produce the knife showing it was used for benign purposes.

There is no document that the public could be aware of AFAIK. We have redacted return of inventories from several warrants served on Walmart, KBar,Ebay, Blue Ridge and so forth. Then we have returns from BK's residence (no knife receipt mentioned - just receipt and tag from Dickies -from memory-but definately no knife receipt). We have the Return of Inventory from PA residence, white elantra and BK's person. The PA Return does include a couple of knives, but again no specific mention of any document that could be inferred at this point to show BK purchased a likely murder weopen. Some papers and documents are listed but no specifics. I hope it is ok not to post all those links again right now. They are available at the Court Pages for Idaho and Pennsylvannia and have been posted quite a few times prior on this thread and all the most recent threads.

That's not to say some kind of documentation hasn't been uncovered. We don't know either way.

MOO