4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

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Not a lot of options out there. His other choice was through Moscow, so less direct and probably not the best choice. If you look at the map, you'll see:
But he was bold enough to (return) to the scene that morning right in Moscow…. (And captured on CCTV in the process)

So going the long way back to Pullman would appear more obvious than taking the highway …. IMO
Now that they have the phone and CCTV data all correlated ….


BUT it’s JMO ….
 
Moscow suspect Bryan Kohberger changed title of Hyundai Elantra five days after murders

“According to a public records request filed by KTVB, Kohberger, 28, applied to transfer the title of the Elantra from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, which was issued on April 20, 2022, to Whitman County, Washington, on Nov. 18, 2022. It was then issued Dec. 5, 2022. Records show the vehicle was also registered.”

HTH

So it was entirely *after* the murders. He really did wait past what a reasonable grad student would do. However, they are students and often late with such things.

Appears to have nothing to do with the expiration from PA (which should have been good until April 2023). Interesting that he applied after the murders. I need to go check what people have been posting about when he got the new plate - it seems he did not get it until Dec. 5. While I guess this could be seen as some kind of attempt to cover his tracks (like the visit to the doctor), it's hard to say. Seems like it made him a bit more suspicious.

Maybe he was losing it.

IMO.
 
So going the long way back to Pullman would appear more obvious than taking the highway …. IMO
We may be talking about two different times. I'm talking about when he dropped down to go shopping on Sunday and back into Pullman.

If I'd been the killer, I'd have gone Sand Road both ways the night before and gone in through the arboretum. No cameras.
 
Adding this:

BK was not out of compliance with WA State laws by not registering within the 30 days. It's not a one-size-fits-all for o/o/s residents:


May a vehicle properly licensed or registered in another jurisdiction be operated in Washington without further registration requirements?

Yes, as provided in RCW 46.85.060 and 46.85.080 the following conditions and restrictions apply:

(1) Nonresident students: The student must be in full-time attendance at a college or university in Washington accredited by the Northwest Association of Schools and Colleges or at a private vocational school as that term is defined by RCW 28C.10.020(7) and maintain their legal home of record at a location outside the state of Washington.
Vehicles must be registered in the student's or in the name of their parent or legal guardian in the resident state of record. The student must carry documentation issued by the college, university or vocational school that readily establishes the nonresident status. Employment incidental to the full-time student status is permitted. The spouse of a nonresident student has the same licensing privilege as long as the vehicle is registered to the student or jointly to the student and spouse, regardless of the spouse's legal residence or employment.

That's true in my experience as well. Even for students applying for in-state tuition, it should be ok to use a car with out-of-state plates. My college roommate did this -- was a resident of the state, but the car was a gift from her mom and mom lived in another state. JMO.
 
I don't think we know whether he was out of compliance with the WA Vehicle Code or at least I don't. The link on that code you provided says it applies to people who move to WA AND are considered residents. It further says "You are considered a resident when you register to vote, receive state benefits, apply for any state license at residential rates, or seek in-state tuition rates." Honestly we don't know if he'd done any of those things prior or to November, do we? I know I don't. There's no reason to suspect he'd applied for in-state tuition rates yet (although he got a waiver from being a TA) and I doubt TA pay is considered a "state benefit." Do we know if he'd registered to vote?

According to this story, he received the WA plate on Dec 5.

So he was driving with PA plates well past the deadline of Nov 30 assuming he drove the car between Dec 1& Dec 5. (The link also notes the affidavit noted the PA plate expired Nov 30.) I know in my state, a receipt showing the new plate has been ordered can be shown to LE if it doesn't arrive in time. At any rate, he doesn't appear to have been stopped for having an expired plate. And it's unclear to me if he was in violation of the Vehicle Code.

JMO

Well, BK was getting an in-state tuition deferment, contingent upon being a resident for the next year. IMO, he ought to have complied, therefore, with WA law (30 days to register) unless he intended to move back to PA.

He applied late, but I think most localities excuse students from strict compliance (something that is perhaps not the best idea, since we are trying to form them into adults in the universities, but I digress). WA law says that if you are living there, you must apply within 30 days. Otherwise, you are basically stating (legally) that you aren't intending to live there.

If not intending to reside in WA, no further tuition breaks. But, for first year students, it's clear the law looks the other way. Just as the officer did when she didn't write him a ticket (either for the plates or for the moving violation). I suppose that only the teachers in the classroom are supposed to keep the rules, but it used to be that police did too.

He was definitely driving well past the deadline. However, in most college towns (and elsewhere), students do indeed get a pass. With so many things. Only a fraction of underage drinkers are caught, etc. The expired PA plate is the icing on the (non-law abiding) cake.

I think he was in violation of the vehicle code if he was intending residency - as stipulated by his Washington taxpayer paid tuition break. Bad look for a criminologist, if you ask me.

IMO.
 
Lots of evidence is circumstantial, but yes, it would have to be something really OTT to get this in imo. And then there's AT's statement. She is going to have to argue the motion to compel on 6.27, so I doubt she made up the exonerating evidence because I can't imagine a judge being okay with that. IMO.

ETA: Searches like "which cleaner is best to destroy DNA after stabbing multiple people to death?" or things along those lines would be more compelling than "which oxygen bleach is best?". As I've joked (dark humor) before, his purchase of a gallon or two of Blood-B-Gone would have made this cleaning up discussion re the evidence a whole lot cleaner.
Some great humour here Sister Golden Hair. "Blood-B-Gone" - such a great name for an oxygen bleach. :D
Perhaps you could register it as a trademark. Oxygen bleach manufacturers would be lining up to buy the name.
MOO of course...
 
I think that the trick with this is that oxygen bleaches are not an unusual shopping item. I buy Oxyclean, and I'm not cleaning up a crime scene, haven't murdered anyone, and I think that's probably the case for most Oxyclean buyers. Church & Dwight sell millions of dollars a year in the stuff.


I think the trick with the prosecution using Oxyclean or some other innocuous cleaning product would be to prove that it was unusual (at least for him, and good luck with that) and in enough quantity and there would need to be physical evidence (via testing, for example) to show the presence of that cleaner. Just showing that he had the innocuous cleaning product wouldn't be enough because probably most of the people in the courtroom and on the jury have innocuous cleaning products, too. Without being able to tie those products to the crime in obvious, compelling fashion, IMO ERs 401, 402, 403 would be stumbling blocks to admission.

Article IV. Relevancy and its Limits

401. Test for Relevant Evidence.
402. General Admissibility of Relevant Evidence.
403. Excluding Relevant Evidence for Prejudice, Confusion, Waste of Time, or Other Reasons.

The use of white vinegar and baking soda was also discussed a few threads back, but again, not unusual for cleaning (esp in the PNW), so even if it can be used to clean a crime scene, most people who are buying it are not using it to clean crime scenes. Again, there would have to be evidence that he'd done some big clean up. At the time, the discussion was around his apartment, and whether or not he'd done a clean-up there. I believe that if LE had found evidence of a big clean-up, they'd have removed the evidence for testing (for ex, a chunk of carpet where it was suspected) or some other physical piece of the apartment. LE did remove a part of the countertop to test for blood.

Page 10, Marked A - Collected item


Everything that was considered evidence (either because of that it was or because it tested presumptive positive for blood) was taken because it's evidence and can't just be left there. Everything else was left (not evidence). If there had been any massive clean-up apparent in the apartment, the evidence of that would have been collected. According to the Evidence Collection Log (starting page 8), there was nothing like that taken.

Point of all of that is to say that if there was a massive clean-up of the car using bleach or the Oxyclean version, that would probably show up in tests. It could be that is the case but the reason I question that is the exonerating evidence cited by the defense. I have a hard time believing AT would make a false claim in a motion to compel. Just me and IMO.
We have a janitorial business. A couple weeks ago one of my customers asked me to go to his brother in law's condo. BIL had had a biopsy on his ankle that bled. It didn't just bleed, it looked like a murder had taken place. (BIL is a functional <modsnip> gentleman in his 70's. He has no common sense.) I cleaned everything that was a hard surface and suggested they get a company that could handle the blood now imbedded in the cream color carpet. They hired carpet cleaners. They stains did not come out. So once again I was asked to go back and give it my best shot. I brought Oxyclean for clothing. Sprayed the now commercially cleaned stains and waited. Then I used a Bissell hand held carpet machine. Stains all disappeared like magic. It's truly an amazing cleaner that I have used on other blood stains over the years while working. It does not damage the different types of materials I have used it on so it is not obvious like chlorine bleach. I've always told my hubby, if you murder me, use Oxyclean.
 
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ADMIN NOTE

This post lands at random.

Okay folks, bleach was speculation so please move on from that discussion.

As for what unsavory types might read here and get hints about, I'm sure there are a zillion other things they would zero in on. We can't control the universe, and we've never yet heard a perp exclaim "I did it because I read it on Websleuths" ;)
 
Well, BK was getting an in-state tuition deferment, contingent upon being a resident for the next year. IMO, he ought to have complied, therefore, with WA law (30 days to register) unless he intended to move back to PA.

He applied late, but I think most localities excuse students from strict compliance (something that is perhaps not the best idea, since we are trying to form them into adults in the universities, but I digress). WA law says that if you are living there, you must apply within 30 days. Otherwise, you are basically stating (legally) that you aren't intending to live there.

If not intending to reside in WA, no further tuition breaks. But, for first year students, it's clear the law looks the other way. Just as the officer did when she didn't write him a ticket (either for the plates or for the moving violation). I suppose that only the teachers in the classroom are supposed to keep the rules, but it used to be that police did too.

He was definitely driving well past the deadline. However, in most college towns (and elsewhere), students do indeed get a pass. With so many things. Only a fraction of underage drinkers are caught, etc. The expired PA plate is the icing on the (non-law abiding) cake.

I think he was in violation of the vehicle code if he was intending residency - as stipulated by his Washington taxpayer paid tuition break. Bad look for a criminologist, if you ask me.

IMO.
What I quoted from the link you provided did not say "WA law says that if you are living there, you must apply within 30 days." Otherwise every undergrad in the state would need to title his/her car in WA and that's not true. (See, for example @Sister Golden Hair's discussion of students and car registrations.) There are some conditions included in what's said. It says "Just moved to Washington State? You have 30 days to title, register and get WA plates on your vehicle. (You can get a $529 minimum traffic fine if you are a resident and do not license your vehicle in this state. You are considered a resident when you register to vote, receive state benefits, apply for any state license at residential rates, or seek in-state tuition rates.)

We don't know if BK had done any of the things to make himself a legal resident within the first 30 days he was in WA. (You say a tuition waiver makes him a resident-- I'm not so sure about that. Many students get waivers and aren't residents.) While it seems obvious he intended to live there for tuition purposes, unless students do the things that make them residents per the law, I suspect cops in college towns know those kinds of tickets aren't worth writing.
JMO
 
Moscow suspect Bryan Kohberger changed title of Hyundai Elantra five days after murders

“According to a public records request filed by KTVB, Kohberger, 28, applied to transfer the title of the Elantra from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, which was issued on April 20, 2022, to Whitman County, Washington, on Nov. 18, 2022. It was then issued Dec. 5, 2022. Records show the vehicle was also registered.”

HTH

I don't think it's true the plate expired in April
as the registration date above implies and as other posts have concluded from the original registration date. I know in my state it's possible (or used to be possible) to transfer a tag from one's last car to a new car and the registration is good for however long it would have been good for on the old car. So the expiration date is NOT a year from the date the new car was registered.

Anyway, when discussing BK's traffic stop in Aug 2022 the PCA states "At the time, Kohberger, who was the sole occupant, was driving a white 2015 Hyundai Elanta with Pennsylvania plate LFZ'8649 which was set to expire on November 30, 2022." (Bold added by me.) Bryan Kohberger Probable Cause Affidavit

So the plate expired in Nov per LE. That's definite. BK must have done the transfer and new tag ordering online because he received the tag in Dec (Dec 5 per this article Idaho murders: Bryan Kohberger changed license plate five days after student slayings) having ordered it Nov 18 per the PCA. As other posts have stated, it should have taken about 3 weeks to get the tag and apparently it did. Nov 18 until Dec 5 is 18 days, 3 days short of 3 weeks. The transfer to WA was done before Dec 5 though as the car showed a WA registration per the PCA when an officer ran it on Nov 25.

Maybe BK should have transferred the registration earlier to be sure to get in-state tuition for the next year. I can't say. But he had to do it before the end of Nov so I don't find the timing of Nov 18 odd. And students are often tardy AND students may not have the money to do those kinds of tasks after incurring lots of moving expenses.
JMO
 
Thankyou for that information …. I have never considered using those products on anything but washing …. So thanks for the tip!

If BK did infact use these products hopefully LE have been able to track his purchases of same … I think it would take a few bottles to clean an entire car… or maybe I am just very heavy handed!!!

I guess if it was a well planned attack, he could have added one bottle to each shopping list for a while before November to lessen the obvious multi purchases…

A case in Australia was recently cracked with the assistance of unusual shopping items …..
Yup!

Just like we are seeing in this case, it is often the circumstantial evidence that transpired before a crime occurred that helps convict defendants.

Amateur killers concentrate on the crime scenes, thus, missing evidence they left behind before the crime is committed. I have seen many examples of this in murder Cases I have followed.

Killers will concentrate on not being seen which includes waiting until dark, taking away security cameras and using stolen cars. Also they try not to leave evidence such as DNA, footprints, fingerprints and items brought in. Sometimes they try to fool investigators by tampering with the crime scene to look like a robbery or to look like a drug deal gone bad, such as throwing money on the victim, which happened in a case I followed.

Like with Kohberger, investigators look to see what purchases were made leading up to the homicide and they get receipts from stores with high security like Walmart, including camera footage of the killer shopping for the items. Online purchases are a big thing. I followed a Case where a defendant bought a Glock through Facebook, meeting the seller at a highway rest stop.

Searches on computers are another "before the crime" evidence investigators try to find. In a case I followed a lady who was subpoenaed to the GJ looked up "how to lie to the GJ" the night before she gave her testimony. Later she was indicted for lying to the GJ.

Another thing is text messages (Lori Vallow Chad Daybell) on phones and photos taken on phones. The defendant in a Case I followed took a photo of his gun they think he used in his murders. They identified his hand holding the gun from his partial palm print and ring tattoo.

Social media activity is another avenue studied. There has been possible social media connections between Kohberger and one or more of the women. There is the Reddit survey which may or may not be used as evidence, and possible other posts from the past that could be from Kohberger showing his state of mind that again, may or may not be used.

Usually prosecutors show what the defendant was doing in the months before their crime and this will likely include the 12 trips to Moscow, 11 of them late at night/early morning. It could possibly include the altercation with the professor and the accusations that he was unfair towards women students.

Someone just mentioned the possibility of LE finding evidence of Kohberger buying bleach and other cleaning products before the crime and this could also include buying dark clothes, possible Van shoes, a mask, the sheath and even the knife used that night.

Then there is usually circumstantial evidence from the days and weeks after the killer commits their murder. I'm sure LE will have some evidence in that vein.

Before = (could be)
social media connections - 12 Moscow trips in very late hours - variety of "murder kit" purchases - computer searches - connections to victims on computer, for example, such as house floor plans - online postings showing state of mind - ID cards stolen from other women.

After = (could be)
not getting rid of all traces of evidence including blood, DNA, hair, "murder kit items," evidence of clean up -
new and different behaviors such as obsessive car cleaning, wearing gloves in house, taking personal items out of family trash, putting trash in neighbors' bin - keeping "souvenirs" from the victims - going towards Moscow the next morning then suddenly turning around - suspicious online searches, for example, looking up murders on phone or computer before they are reported - incriminating comments made in online discussions of the murders.

That Night = (could be )

phone pings of travel from Pullman to Moscow - video record of travel to crime scene and arriving at crime scene - phone turning off during time of crime then being turned back on - shoe print (might not tie to BK)
- being seen by a witness in the house (description cannot rule him out) - video evidence of leaving crime scene and travel back to Pullman - video evidence of surreptitiously driving back to Pullman - phone pings of travel to Pullman from Moscow.
 
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Again, in MOO, students attempting to establish residency for in-state tuition purposes at UI or WSU generally get going right away, so the decision to not register his vehicle in WA until 5 days after the murders (and well after the 30 days allowed by law) rather than when he arrived in July cost him thousands of dollars & is curious to me.

Especially if, as WSers here have speculated, BK had no intention of returning to WSU following Winter break.
AH, my apologies I see what you are saying now. I misunderstood, was thinking more re continuity of registration rather than the implications for BK of not within 30 days OF ARRIVAL in WA, changing his plates over. I do see what you are getting at now and again apologies for any confusion. He was within the law re keeping his registration up to date, but not changing plate to WA within 30 days of arrival may have had ramifications. MOO
 
IMO "totality of the evidence" gets thrown around a lot. Yes, it is important; it's how we evaluate the overall set of circumstances to draw a conclusion. But the individual pieces that comprise the totality need to be compelling and (in most cases) numerous. For example, the totality of two pieces isn't really going to get us to BARD after the defense chips away at each separate piece of evidence (which is what they will do). General thinking seems to be that the prosecution has so much evidence based on the volume of evidence provided to the defense during discovery, but volume alone means nothing (example: Barry Morphew.)

Right now, as @SLouTh and @BeginnerSleuther and @NCWatcher have laid out for us this a.m., the totality of the evidence that we know about at this time isn't overwhelming, and we know that there are mitigating factors that the defense will introduce.

Without blood evidence, that's one less piece to add to the sum total.

Without GPS nailing him at the scene as opposed to cell tower evidence that places him somewhere around Moscow, that's an easily argued piece for the defense. One of the examples in the PCA put him 1.6 miles from the house at 11 pm. I mean, that's a stretch IMO - with the intention of making the evidence more compelling than it actually would be if all of the facts were included (Moscow is 6ish square miles, the university, banking and shopping were located at that busy and brightly lit intersection, etc.)

Without BK's DNA in the house or at least some kind of physical evidence placing him there other than touch DNA, there's less to add to that totality pile. The defense can put up a solid argument against touch DNA, if it's allowed as evidence at all. They can argue chain of custody.

White Elantra with no license plate or photo of BK in it at the scene - a little less compelling.

Potentially different testimony from BF and DM, a little more damage... and on it goes.

And after all that, IMO the totality of evidence at this point in time and based on what we know in this case doesn't make BARD. IMO the prosecution has some work to do.

To be clear, I'm not arguing for or against BK. I just don't know enough. I think the media and others have a real vested interest in making the pieces fit to accuse him - and that's the only story line we're getting. I think there's tunnel vision for a lot of parties. I do think he's awkward, but from the videos I've seen of him, he doesn't seem to be Satan Incarnate either - on video, superficially speaking.

I don't think that the state has begun to meet BARD in my mind, and that's before the defense rolls up with their evidence and arguments. So totality of evidence - yes - BUT the individual pieces that comprise the totality need to be compelling and (in most cases) numerous, and so far, that's not where I see this case.
Pair everything you stated with BK, the “ Criminology PhD. student/teaching assistant” and we have a defendant who, IMOO, is going to micro-examine every word on every document (I would do the same) and his excellent defense team-
yes, I am a little more than nervous. Like you said and I agree, IMO as well, the state is no where near meeting BARD. Praying we will be pleasantly surprised when the evidence is introduced.
 
What I quoted from the link you provided did not say "WA law says that if you are living there, you must apply within 30 days." Otherwise every undergrad in the state would need to title his/her car in WA and that's not true. (See, for example @Sister Golden Hair's discussion of students and car registrations.) There are some conditions included in what's said. It says "Just moved to Washington State? You have 30 days to title, register and get WA plates on your vehicle. (You can get a $529 minimum traffic fine if you are a resident and do not license your vehicle in this state. You are considered a resident when you register to vote, receive state benefits, apply for any state license at residential rates, or seek in-state tuition rates.)

We don't know if BK had done any of the things to make himself a legal resident within the first 30 days he was in WA. (You say a tuition waiver makes him a resident-- I'm not so sure about that. Many students get waivers and aren't residents.) While it seems obvious he intended to live there for tuition purposes, unless students do the things that make them residents per the law, I suspect cops in college towns know those kinds of tickets aren't worth writing.
JMO

EXACTLY. BK hadn't even violated the law. He did not need to become a WA State citizen to live and work and drive legally in WA. The links I posted are quite clear.

Also, a tuition waiver does not make someone a resident of WA State. Nor does a scholarship. There are international students working on campus in WA receiving full tuition waivers - would they automatically become a citizen of the US and a resident of WA State? No. That's ludicrous. If BK automatically became a WA State citizen because of the tuition waiver, then this entire set of instructions on the WSU website would be a moot point:

Assistantship Tuition Waivers

...Non-resident graduate students on assistantship appointments are eligible for a non-resident waiver for the out-of-state portion of tuition during the first year they are on assistantship appointment at WSU. During that first year, students are responsible for taking all necessary steps to establish legal residency in the state of Washington. If residency is not established, non-resident graduate students will be responsible for non-resident tuition after their first academic year. International students are provided an out-of-state tuition waiver with their assistantship appointment throughout their academic career.

TAs/RAs, Faculty and Staff and their Spouses and Dependents, and Immigrant Refugees and their Spouses and Dependents


The University is authorized to waive the non-resident portion of tuition for a person residing in the state of Washington if they hold a graduate service appointment (as a teaching assistant or research assistant) or are employed by an academic department for not less than twenty hours per week, are a University employee who is recruited for employment from another state to work at the University or that employee’s spouse or dependent child, or are an immigrant refugee or the spouse or child of a refugee. Review WAC 478-161-020 for restrictions on duration of eligibility for faculty, staff, and refugees.


Also, JIC it's a question, resident status is not automatically conferred upon someone just because they get money from WA State. Working in WA does not make someone a resident, either. It doesn't work that way.
 
But he was bold enough to (return) to the scene that morning right in Moscow…. (And captured on CCTV in the process)

So going the long way back to Pullman would appear more obvious than taking the highway …. IMO
Now that they have the phone and CCTV data all correlated ….


BUT it’s JMO ….
I don't recall that he was seen on cctv the next morning -- can you remind me where/when that capture was?

I only recall that he came close enough to Moscow to access the same cell tower that serves King Rd. But that doesn't mean he actually returned to King Rd, as tempting as it is to think that.

If I am wrong (I'm unable to entirely keep current with this case), I apologize and someone please set me straight.

MOO
 
Pair everything you stated with BK, the “ Criminology PhD. student/teaching assistant” and we have a defendant who, IMOO, is going to micro-examine every word on every document (I would do the same) and his excellent defense team-
yes, I am a little more than nervous. Like you said and I agree, IMO as well, the state is no where near meeting BARD. Praying we will be pleasantly surprised when the evidence is introduced.
The jury will weigh the facts, I trust them.
 
we've never yet heard a perp exclaim "I did it because I read it on Websleuths" ;)
And to think that's just the angle my attorney and I were planning. I guess it's back to Twinkies for me. ;)

Praying we will be pleasantly surprised when the evidence is introduced.
What I'm hoping is that the evidence is quite clear either way. I'm not vested in his guilt or his innocence. What I really want to see is all of the evidence laid out, and I want to see it be obvious, no namby-pamby-sorta-kinda BARD. I want it to be either Oh yeah he did it or No way he did it. But definitely we're not there yet. And I want the June 27 hearing re the motion to compel to fill in some of those blanks. Oh, and I want all of my questions answered or at least the Top 10 during the trial. But then that's all I want. That's it :)
 
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