4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

[wary]

LE Exams of Homicide Victims' Vehicles for Other Suspect? Acquaintance of Vic(s)?

@Boxer Yes, makes sense that LE/FBI did extensive exams of victims' vehicles.

Like you said, it's possible --- speaking gen'ly now and not specifically to this case necessarily --- an acquaintance of a vic committed the homicides. Or may have been involved in some capacity. Aiding & abetting, destroying evd, etc.?

Even after focusing attn on a stranger as killer, later, LE & prosecution do not want the stranger-being-tried to claim LE had tunnel vision from early on, so did not investigate for other possible suspects.

That def. argument is raised so frequently, it seems automatic.
imo

And it’s amusing, in a very darkly humorous way, that LE’s investigation of other possible suspects is then used as a defense argument. I think we’ll see/have already seen those possibilities in this case.

MOO

 

[Nova]

...
Cool Cats indicated:
Final examinations began on Monday, December 12, 2022 to Friday, December 16, 2022...He would be extremely busy administering final exams as a TA and may have known he might not be back....

Unless there is some special policy at WSU that nobody has uncovered to date, a professor has all sorts of options re testing. Some don't give final exams, either because they want to get out of town early for the holiday or because they don't want to encourage students to wait and cram just for a test.

Others give a smaller test during the last scheduled class period rather than waiting for finals week.

Etc. and so forth. Without more specific course info--a copy of the course syllabus might tell us--we can't know that BK had to proctor or grade final exams. His scheduled departure suggests he did not (or he was able to take the exams back to PA and grade them there).

 

[al66pine]

Why Have Phone at Homicide Site? Pix?

I’ve wondered if he took photos of his crime.

@Helechawagirl Good point.
I do not recall WS discussion on this point.

First, do we know as a FACT that BK did have phone INSIDE the house? Anyone?
IIRC, PCA did not verify.

______________________________________
(Mention of a killer taking photos of/during crime flashed me back to Jodi Arias trial for murdering Travis Alexander and all evd. & testimony re camera & memory card in the washer, etc. Yikes, trial was 10 years ago. Enough of that. Back to current case)

 

[jepop]

The only remaining pieces of evidence that would make sense for his defense to believe could be exculpatory, and they may not have gotten yet, would be all of the DNA results from all the items tested in his parent's home, trash cans and receptacles, and his car.

I think BK/his defense realize his only hope of potentially being exonerated is through picking apart the DNA results (a) on the knife sheath and attempting to demonstrate it wasn't 100% his, and (b) that were collected and shown to be someone else's at his parent's home and/or in his car.

Two ways he might try and circle back to that and attack the DNA evidence, IMO, are:

Parent's House / Trash -- He wants to compare all the DNA results and labs and techniques used for all samples collected, including those LE did not submit in discovery because they were from a family member or unknown person. He wants to look for irregularities or results that can't be explained or might not fit with LE's lines of evidence. For instance, "See, they've got it all wrong, they can't even say exclusively that's my DNA right on my own pillow, it's a mix and can only be narrowed down to "close family member"!" kind of thing, or "They used different labs and/or methods for the DNA tests in PA than in ID, and they're inconsistent."

Or

His Car -- He knows there was someone else's DNA in his car that LE should have found and said something about, and he believes they should not have been eliminated as a suspect, the old SODDI or TODDI defense. He could have had an accomplice or friend or acquaintance ride in his car, or he could have planted someone else's DNA on purpose to set up SODDI/TODDI as a fallback, in the house and/or in his car. And that's why he supposedly asked if anyone else had been arrested when he was arrested.

JMO

Very interesting possibilities. Great post IMO. I agree that it's possible dna evidence is what the defense are after. Though I have a different take on speculated details.

Item 49 in Motion to Compel includes many potential forensic reports. I think it's safe to assume from the prosecution's response to the motion that some/many reports have been handed over already but due to the way these items were originally listed and numbered, the wording remains the same in defense's motion - ie ALL forensic reports et al. from a. PA ROS (return of service on search warrant); b. trash/receptacle items; and c. vehicle ROS. MOO

But I think in this motion defense isn't after all those reports. It already has some/many according to the state's response. IMO, they are after one or two particular thing/s in within the broader category but have not yet specified what it/they is/are (which report etc). June 27th for that to become clearer? MOO

RE dna, I've thought the "exculpatory information on belief and information" might be to do with forensic testing method of the trash (paternal testing and so forth) that was used to identify the suspect profile on the snap button of the sheath as BK's (ie forensic reports et al related to items from trash cans and receptacles). The snap button dna test result was part of the PCA and Defense might be looking to go there/have that questioned. Speculation only. However, if that is the case not sure how far that might go. Remember the supplemental disclosure re dna test result? That was used to ensure the search warrants in WA would still stand sans dna test result. This disclosure was not used in PA search warrant apps, but nonetheless all three search warrants (the PA residence, the vehicle and BK's person) were issued on the basis of a modified PCA. The PCA attached to the applications for PA warrants makes no mention of the dna test result on the snap button so in theory (on paper) those warrants were issued by a judge sans the sheath button evidence. So if the defense is looking to ultimately question the validity of a/all PA search warrant/s through this motion item (that's an if and speculation) then it may not go down. MOO
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Bouncing off...

All this speculation on item 49 of motion to compel made me think again of what the rationale/strategy might have been behind BK's standing silent/mute at the arraignment.

In at least four States that I could find, private law firms use this standard language on their websites regarding standing "mute" at arraignment. The states I found were New York, Michigan and Pennsylvannia. @wary found a reference to Texas, and is the OP who originally came up with this.

From what I can understand, it appears that the standard reason for a defendant to be advised by counsel to stand mute in the above states is:

"“Mute” plea: ...you may “stand mute” instead of making a plea. The court will then enter a plea of not guilty. By standing mute, you avoid silently admitting to the correctness of the proceedings against you until that point. You are then free to attack all previous proceedings that may have been irregular.""

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My question is, would the same appply in Idaho? If so is this why the defendant stood silent/mute at arraignment? And if so, are some of the items in Motion to Compel part of a defense strategy to " attack previous proceedings that may have been.. [from the Defense's POV]...irregular"? Just speculation. MOO

EBM structure

 

[Nova]

I agree, plus all 4 of the indictment charges for the murders include the word "premeditated", so it doesn't seem like anything he did that night would have been "on the fly", IMO, JMO.

As jury instructions always emphasize, "premeditation" can occur in an instant. It doesn't mean the crime was well-planned in advance, only that the perp had time to form the required intent to commit murder.

 

[jepop]

LE Exams of Homicide Victims' Vehicles for Other Suspect? Acquaintance of Vic(s)?

@Boxer Yes, makes sense that LE/FBI did extensive exams of victims' vehicles.

Like you said, it's possible --- speaking gen'ly now and not specifically to this case necessarily --- an acquaintance of a vic committed the homicides. Or may have been involved in some capacity. Aiding & abetting, destroying evd, etc.?

Even after focusing attn on a stranger as killer, later, LE & prosecution do not want the stranger-being-tried to claim LE had tunnel vision from early on, so did not investigate for other possible suspects.

That def. argument is raised so frequently, it seems automatic.
imo

Absolutely. I'm confident the DA has been fully aware of potential tunnel vision defense strategies from the get go (It's a well known area for defense attack IMO). And that LE investigative procedure was in accordance. Chief Fry was repeatedly saying "we are looking at all angles" as he again addressed the throng. MOO.

Remember the phrase from press conferences when there was a lot of public pressure (via media) to hurry things along (where is a suspect etc)?.I'm paraphrasing from memory "We aren't just looking for an arrest, we are looking for a conviction". MOO

ETA: It completely blows my mind when I look back on the investigation and the result. Personally speaking, I'm in awe of how LE got there and in awe of the professionalism applied. MOO

 

[NCWatcher]

I think we are wrong to assume BK forfeited his chance at in-state tuition in 2023 by not registering his car until November.

There must be out-of-state students who don't even own cars, so that can't be the only way to prove residency. Getting his WA drivers' licence sometime earlier would accomplish the same purpose. So might things like utility bills or his lease.

BK was both a student and WSU employee (TA) beginning in August of 2022, so that would have gone a long way to proving residency in Washington state.

It's possible that BK took care to change his plates before they expired in PA. Perhaps he thought that doing so was a way of "hiding in place" or perhaps he simply wanted to avoid being stopped for expired tags. Occam's Razor.

In MOO we are overthinking it to assume the new plates were part of some master-criminal plan. (BTW, I had one colleague in grad school who was from out-of-state. My memory--of 30 years ago--is that she was able to establish residency retroactively, without too much trouble. This was in California.)

I personally do not think the timing of changing the car registration & plate is meaningful. I think it's more likely (and simpler-- Occam) to think BK didn't have the money to make all the changes when he first moved. The cost of a DL is high in WA, supposedly the highest in the US.
https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/state/washington/article273923140.html. He had to have a WA DL before he could register his car there. And there are costs to registering the car too. Possibly pretty hefty costs if he had to change insurance companies.

People have used the adage "penny wise and pound foolish" to describe putting off changing the registration as it could impact tuition costs. But people without much money often look like they operate that way. For example, they don't buy groceries in any kind of bulk even though the cost per serving would be much lower than the way they buy. But if they don't have the money for bulk...Or they end up paying interest on a credit card so a $10 item that may not have been a great buy to begin with really costs $20...It seems likely BK would have been in that situation. Most grad students I've known that have moved for school are, especially for the first few months. And it's not like his parents had money to give him.

I don't think we can say if he messed up getting in-state tuition by waiting until Nov. This link says he may have. Establishing Residency But the story "on the ground" may be different and BK easily could have known that. I know when I was in grad school there were some published policies everybody knew were not enforced.

I'm not sure why he would have thought he'd stand out less with a PA plate than with a WA one. He wouldn't have had a front PA plate but WA plates would be much more common in ID than PA plates. So the idea that he was hiding with a PA plate before the murders doesn't make sense to me. But some people posting and some click-bait headlines are implying that within a few days of the murders, to hide any hint of his PA car's connection to the crime, his car sported WA plates. Bryan Kohberger Changed License Plate Days After Idaho Murders, Was Stopped Near Victims' Home in August
That's simply not true. The PCA states the PA registration expired Nov 30, he initiated the transfer in Nov (apparently on SATURDAY Nov 19, a day the physical office was closed) but he didn't get his WA tag until Dec. (Dec 5 or later) That's because he didn't go to the local DMV office to do the transaction. He did it by mail & online instead. The instructions on the DMV site clearly state the tag will be mailed in about 3 weeks if that option is chosen instead of coming in. It seems to me if he wanted his car to have a different plate right after the murders he'd have gone to the DMV.
JMO

 

[katydid23]

Criminals are not fundamentally smart. Why beef with your assigned supervising professor?

That^^^ is a really valid point and a good question.

Was he really serious about wanting to get his PHD? If so, why get into heated beef with the supervising professor who has a big say in your future success?

Did he have a lack of self control, when it came to being triggered or feeling disrespected?

 

[Helechawagirl]

I vacillate between compulsion or plan. BK wants to be important IMO.

Can’t both be true?

 

[jepop]

That makes sense, and I can see it, but I think BK didn't need his GPS, especially to get around Moscow, since we know he was in the area at least 12 times previously. Although he did go east for a bit before the murders, so maybe he needed directions for wherever he went first? I don't know. I find it odd and suspicious. My personal guess is he did practice runs, of sorts, and knew exactly what he was going to do and where.

Yeah, I'm not sure either about the idea of BK needing his GPS. I'm still not convinced he didn't turn his phone off but instead placed it airplane mode on the night of the crime. I just don't think we can say for sure either way atm. But I am no expert or anything on phones and have only layperson's knowledge.

My recall from Murdaugh trial is that there are ways through forensic analysis of phone logs and other data for experts to determine if and when a phone might be switched off or alternatively placed into Airplane mode. I also remember something about battery levels also being stored in a phone's logs so experts would also be able to determine if and when a phone's battery had run out. MOO

In regard to Night of crime only: At time of PCA, LE didn't have BK's phone so no access to these logs? I'm not sure that BK's provider AT&T would have that log info and it was the location/ping data provided by AT&T that helped LE determine that BK's phone suddenly disconnected from the network between 2.47 and 4.48am. Also per PCA, BK's phone number did not turn up via the various geofence warrants for towers within a certain close radius of 1122 King Road. MOO

I think that investigators have the forensic results from BK's phone now and probably know what action he took with his phone on the night. Unfortunately, we probably won't find this out until trial. Just MOO.

* As an aside, from memory those geo fence warrants are all redacted but what is available makes interesting reading in terms of how accurate ping data might be. LE sought and received info/numbers from various providers for a very defined and close radius around 1122 - from memory half a mile ot less. I could be wrong/mis-remembering, but the warrants are available on Idaho Cases of Interest page if any others are interested. MOO

EBM for clarity

 

[Rumination1]

Oooh! How very interesting! Kudos to you schooling for spotting Det Payne's interesting phraseology. Thank you also for explaining in layman's terms what this means.

So, please correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not a techie), but could this therefore mean that LE network forensics could show definitively the location of BK, or the Elantra (depending upon whether the phone was on his person, or in the car) at the time of the murders? Further, I'm surmising that the data could also show the exact route which the Elantra took post-murders, along with timestamps and locations showing the amount of time spent stationary, until the phone network was no longer disabled. MOO

In which case, GOSH (for want of a better word...TOS etc) MOO JMO

Perhaps he knew the girls were home eating food truck food because he was a regular watcher of food truck live feed

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Re BK phone, knowing what he does about crime, supposedly, and the same as we here all know from reading these boards over the years...
Why would he not leave his phone at home, placing him sleeping in his bed?

It's not as if he needed it for directions, he probably knew the area like the back of his hand. JMO but I truly don't think he set out to do what he did, if guilty, I think he set out with other intentions... along the lines of forcing something at knife point maybe or targeting one victim for horror and framing someone. He never even imagined he'd be in the picture IMO, that's why he took his phone. MOO.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Perhaps he knew the girls were home eating food truck food because he was a regular watcher of food truck live feed

A lot of people mentioned this right at the beginning when BK wasn't in the frame. JMO but there's something intensely creepy about the food truck live feed and the fact that IIRC viewers can even buy others' foodstuff for them. I get that it's an innocent enterprise with no nefarious intentions. MOO

 

[Warwick7]

\

Does LE still have them?

Who else would?

 

[TL4S]

Re BK phone, knowing what he does about crime, supposedly, and the same as we here all know from reading these boards over the years...
Why would he not leave his phone at home, placing him sleeping in his bed?

It's not as if he needed it for directions, he probably knew the area like the back of his hand. JMO but I truly don't think he set out to do what he did, if guilty, I think he set out with other intentions... along the lines of forcing something at knife point maybe or targeting one victim for horror and framing someone. He never even imagined he'd be in the picture IMO, that's why he took his phone. MOO.

The phone is a major factor, imo. BK knew a thing or two about digital tracing:

He submitted his application to the police department at some point during the fall semester, when he took his first semester of classes at WSU after graduating from DeSales University with a master’s degree in psychology and cloud-based forensics in June 2022.
https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/i...hip-at-pullman-police-department-in-fall-2022

I don't think taking his phone was by accident. He knew that his phone being left at home really wouldn't matter if his vehicle was seen by surveillance cameras, which I also think he was well aware would be everywhere. If he was going to commit a crime, he knew there was no way to avoid leaving some kind of digital trail, imo. That's why I suspect he put some planning into his route, to avoid the license plate being seen where he didn't want it to be, and possibly where he did want it to be. He turned his phone off, or put it in airplane mode, purposefully, and then, more importantly, turned it back on, or took it out of airplane mode, before he even got home. That's odd behavior and specific in timing, to me. I just don't buy it was to use his GPS. Jmo.

I also wonder about the Kendrick footage request by LE. They asked for footage between 11/12 and 11/14, and this request was after they had identified BK as the driver of a white elantra (not publicly, of course). Timing-wise, there's no way he could have gotten to the Kendrick area around the time of the murders, but perhaps his specific cell phone record showed pings in that area the day before and/or the day after, suggesting he was doing something in or east of Kendrick. IDK. All my own speculation.

Link to information about Kendrick footage:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...urveillance-video-related-to-the-killings.amp

 

[Warwick7]

Re BK phone, knowing what he does about crime, supposedly, and the same as we here all know from reading these boards over the years...
Why would he not leave his phone at home, placing him sleeping in his bed?

It's not as if he needed it for directions, he probably knew the area like the back of his hand. JMO but I truly don't think he set out to do what he did, if guilty, I think he set out with other intentions... along the lines of forcing something at knife point maybe or targeting one victim for horror and framing someone. He never even imagined he'd be in the picture IMO, that's why he took his phone. MOO.

A relative of mine is OCD, no matter the circumstances he goes NOWHERE without his phone. To him it is like an appendage. Literally. It is his safety zone. He HAS to have it with him at all times.

Edit: I forgot to boldening the previous comment. Also.....we don't know if he used it to, God forbid, to take pictures.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Back to LE pinpointing TOD between 4-4:20 am we often spoke of how the coroner could have determined it so precisely.

As we have seen in many cases on WS (Mollie Tibbets ) one or more of those students could have been wearing Apple Watches or Fitbits measuring heart rates and rhythms. Most of those devices also have sleep aps that would have shown they were asleep (or not) and then awakened at an exact time also.

All MOO

 

[TL4S]

Back to LE pinpointing TOD between 4-4:20 am we often spoke of how the coroner could have determined it so precisely.

As we have seen in many cases on WS (Mollie Tibbets ) one or more of those students could have been wearing Apple Watches or Fitbits measuring heart rates and rhythms. Most of those devices also have sleep aps that would have shown they were asleep (or not) and then awakened at an exact time also.

All MOO

Plus they had the car arriving at 4:04, X on Tik Tok at 4:12, and the car leaving at 4:20. I love your idea of the apple watch, though! That could be another piece of evidence.

 

[Montecore1]

BBM
In my own opinion, what we see now, is only a fraction of what LE has close to the vest.
Time and time again we watch trial after trial where evidence is laid out (to the defendant's guilt) that no one knew about. And we'd get blown away in court, where we'd pick our chins up off the floor. We are now getting just fraction of what will be introduced at trial.

You could be right, but we don't know. Court can go either way.

^^^ Absolutely...we only know a fraction of the prosecutions evidence and we also know NONE of what the defense may have in exculpatory evidence. I do expect a lot of chins on the floor, one way or the other.

Who else would?

The families...

 

[jepop]

The phone is a major factor, imo. BK knew a thing or two about digital tracing:

He submitted his application to the police department at some point during the fall semester, when he took his first semester of classes at WSU after graduating from DeSales University with a master’s degree in psychology and cloud-based forensics in June 2022.
https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/i...hip-at-pullman-police-department-in-fall-2022

I don't think taking his phone was by accident. He knew that his phone being left at home really wouldn't matter if his vehicle was seen by surveillance cameras, which I also think he was well aware would be everywhere. If he was going to commit a crime, he knew there was no way to avoid leaving some kind of digital trail, imo. That's why I suspect he put some planning into his route, to avoid the license plate being seen where he didn't want it to be, and possibly where he did want it to be. He turned his phone off, or put it in airplane mode, purposefully, and then, more importantly, turned it back on, or took it out of airplane mode, before he even got home. That's odd behavior and specific in timing, to me. I just don't buy it was to use his GPS. Jmo.

I also wonder about the Kendrick footage request by LE. They asked for footage between 11/12 and 11/14, and this request was after they had identified BK as the driver of a white elantra (not publicly, of course). Timing-wise, there's no way he could have gotten to the Kendrick area around the time of the murders, but perhaps his specific cell phone record showed pings in that area the day before and/or the day after, suggesting he was doing something in or east of Kendrick. IDK. All my own speculation.

Link to information about Kendrick footage:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...urveillance-video-related-to-the-killings.amp

RBBM: I hate to point this out but problem with this, is when LE asked for the footage from Kendrick on Nov 30th, they didn't have any access to BK's phone records (x 2 AT&T warrants not until 23 December). After Dec 23rd LE would have access to all BK's phone pings since June 2022, so could have discovered anything like that at that time.

BK's vehicle was Identified very early am hours of Nov 29th.
If, by Nov 30th, (basically one day) LE had managed to get the footage of 2014-2015 elantra appearing to be leaving Pullman at approx 2.50am on 13 Nov, hypothetically couldn't LE have gone to Kendrick to see if that vehicle had passed through on Nov 13th at the appropriate times in effort to eliminate? Google maps told me 50 mins Pullman to Kendrick at that time of the morning, which would mean elantra might be expected there at around 3.40am at the earliest (assuming no speeding).

Given the scope of the request, I'd say they might have also been looking for evidence of any/all other elantra's passing through on this main route to moscow in the 24 hours surrounding the crimes as part of investigation. Something like widening canvas area at this point, maybe trying to tie in with other footage already canvassed from Moscow. MOO

EBM time