4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #89

[10ofRods]

In my experience...

The touch points in the car (that would have had victim blood on them were it not for the fact that the killer was likely wearing gloves during the crime) would be easily cleaned. Those would be door handles, steering wheel, ignition area, seat belt clips, gear shift, etc. There are other things that could be done to decrease DNA retrieval from those use points, prior to the crime, but I'm not here to give lessons on how to get away with crimes.

It's still a risky business (cleaning up) but not an impossible one. If one of the victims had actually been transported alive in the car, it would be harder to clean up.

It's the preplanning in this case that really helped stymie efforts to get DNA from a vehicle that was likely cleaned many times between Nov 14 and the final week of December.

Some day, we'll have more data on how much DNA is average or typical for a steering wheel, given the mileage on the car and the length of time of ownership. But given that some people really do clean their entire car (or have it professionally detailed - sometimes once a week), it is of little evidentiary consequence and merely suggestive.

 

[gliving]

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/Summary/Case-Summary-Kohberger-09182023.pdf

 

[katydid23]

There is no evidence of cleaning otherwise the defense wouldn't have said that there is no explanation for the total lack of DNA. This is from their motion:

No matter what came first, the car or the genetic genealogy, the investigation has provided precious little.There is no connection between Mr. Kohberger and the victims.

MANY home invasion murders happen between strangers. It is quite often an opportunity which triggers the killings. The predator is out hunting for an opportunity and stumbles upon an unwitting victim. No prior connection needed.

Maybe he saw KG and MM walking from the bar to the food truck as he was driving around? And decided to stalk them for awhile? Who knows how he made the gruesome decision?

There is no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the victims in Mr.Kohberger’s apartment, office home, or vehicle.

There are plenty of explanations possible. No expectations there'd be any DNA evidence in his office or parent's home at all anyway. And I'd expect he'd be very careful about not transferring anything into his home by cleaning himself very well before he entered and bringing nothing inside from the crime scene.

This means they did not detect cleaning chemicals in his car that would have used to get rid of DNA.

He wouldn't need to bleach his car interior or carpets or use tell-tale cleaning agents if he was very careful in the first place. He may have prepared his car beforehand with plastic liners etc, and worn protective clothing covers which he removed before he climbed into the car.

If so, all he'd need to do was regular types of car cleaning, which he was reported to have been seen doing himself at one point.

I think it also means that they didn't find any kind of protective clothing and other gears/tools in his possession/which he bought
that would have helped him not to transfer DNA onto his car.

Of course they didn't find anything like that. The whole purpose is for them to be disposed of immediately after the crime. Why would he keep any protective clothing or tools used in the murders in his possession?

There were many detailed, lenghty posts here on Websleuths for example from 10ofrods explaining that it would be impossible to not to find DNA evidence in his car no matter how hard he cleaned or what kind of protection he used. Many experts also had this same opinion, they were all expecting a treasure trove of evidence in his car.

I've seen it happen before when there was a long span of time between the murders and the forensics team.

In the Joseph McStay family murders, they did not find any forensic evidence of the 4 brutal killings in the home. But Chase Merritt had months to clean before he was arrested. JMO

 

[katydid23]

His apartment didn't come with a shower curtain, it needs to be requested by the tenants. I think he likely just never requested one. I also take showers but don't have a shower curtain.

I have never requested a shower curtain. I buy one when I get a new apartment. They are very cheap and can be bought anywhere.

Just a question if you were the killer and took every possibly precaution (changing clothes, covering seats etc)before the crime not to transfer DNA onto your car would you do a cleaning after the crime with chemicals that can rid of DNA just to make sure that there's no victims DNA there? I know i would.

Except, if you were getting a Master's on criminology, you'd know that using certain cleaning agents would be detected by forensics team. So maybe you'd try a different way?

How did he know that he got lucky as you said and there is no need for him to do a cleaning? He wouldn't know how successful he was with his precaution.

He'd probably have a good idea how successful he was according to how clean he was once he stripped off the outer layer of protection. If he had a plastic layer and a tarp in his trunk, and peeled off the protective layer, put it in a plastic bag, sealed it, put it in his trunk, took off his shoes etc, before getting in his car, which also had plastic seat cover, which would be taken out immediately ---he may not have needed any strong cleaning agents.

There is no evidence that he did. No explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence.
https://housing.wsu.edu/apartments/steptoe-village/

MANY sexual predators/home invasion killers, commit the crimes while they are drunk and high. They are motivated by sexual urges and greed and make a lot of bad mistakes, and get caught quickly.

What if someone had a different motive and was not drunk or high and had was very intelligent AND highly educated in criminology? Could they use those skills in a competitive way, hoping to walk away with out ever being caught, and seeing it as a win?

 

[Helechawagirl]

Do we know for sure that he went home after the murders and not to, say, a hotel or somewhere else?

 

[10ofRods]

Do we know for sure that he went home after the murders and not to, say, a hotel or somewhere else?

I guess we don't. We do seem to have an account of him driving, once again, from Steptoe Apartments to 1122 King Road sometime around 9 am on Sunday morning. Then he goes along the same circuitous route to go back to Steptoe, but this time, getting himself seen on video at Albertson's (and IIRC, his car is seen by a coffee kiosk employee across the street from Albertson's - which is right next to a campground and the Snake River - so there are showers there and it's a fairly large campground, not all sardine-like as some in California are). At any rate, he's quite busy (and if there's evidence of him driving around before midnight, even busier).

To me, this says that he went back to Steptoe sometime prior to 9 am. Does he decide to go to the campground showers to clean up? Did he even go in his apartment until after he did that? We don't know.

I am guessing that if he did go to a hotel, that will be a Huge Red Flag in this case, as there's no reason for him to go to a hotel after a night doing what he usually does, and on a student budget. There would be a record of that, as well.

The "somewhere else," though, could be the campground. Did he go there in the middle of the night? How many times had he been in Clarkston before? The campground is at a wide, easily accessible part of the Snake River, IMO. And it can be accessed easily, IMO, from the parking lot across the street from Albertson's.

IOW, I can easily see him deciding to use a public shower at a campground (on a Sunday, not in the evening, unlikely to be noticed). Part of me thinks that he had not yet dumped all his incriminating clothing, etc. I think his style is to be calm, cool and collected (from his own point of view - he has major holes in his planning, obviously).

Where ever he deposited his crime kit is anyone's guess right now (although LE probably have some idea).

Kate's Cup of Joe is, I believe, the place where he went through the drive-through and did not order. It's across the street from Albertson's. The campground I'm referencing is called Premier RV Resort, but has tent camping and showers, etc.

Here's a pic of the footpath that connects the RV resort to the area behind the coffee kiosk. The Snake is wide and slow in that area, which is why there's a town there.

IOW, he may have stopped (as you suggest) **somewhere** - and maybe more than once, as this was his second trip from Steptoe to Moscow to the general Clarkston region in one day.

IMO.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Objection to States Motion for Protective Order

Page 3

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/062323+Objection+to+States+Motion+for+Protective+Order.pdf

View attachment 447876

Editing because I thought the words were an image that could be seen in the Quote

"No matter what came first, the car or the genetic genealogy, the investigation has
provided precious little. There is no connection between Mr. Kohberger and the victims. There
is no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the victims in Mr. Kohberger’s
apartment, office, home, or vehicle."

That is an opinion, not a fact. This is a complaint about what follows, imo:
"In essence, through the lack of disclosure and their motion to protect the genetic
genealogy investigation, the State is hiding its entire case."

This all put together says defense didn't HAVE all the information, not that there isn't any.

 

[10ofRods]

I have never requested a shower curtain. I buy one when I get a new apartment. They are very cheap and can be bought anywhere.


Except, if you were getting a Master's on criminology, you'd know that using certain cleaning agents would be detected by forensics team. So maybe you'd try a different way?

He'd probably have a good idea how successful he was according to how clean he was once he stripped off the outer layer of protection. If he had a plastic layer and a tarp in his trunk, and peeled off the protective layer, put it in a plastic bag, sealed it, put it in his trunk, took off his shoes etc, before getting in his car, which also had plastic seat cover, which would be taken out immediately ---he may not have needed any strong cleaning agents.

MANY sexual predators/home invasion killers, commit the crimes while they are drunk and high. They are motivated by sexual urges and greed and make a lot of bad mistakes, and get caught quickly.

What if someone had a different motive and was not drunk or high and had was very intelligent AND highly educated in criminology? Could they use those skills in a competitive way, hoping to walk away with out ever being caught, and seeing it as a win?

You win the whole internet with this one. Knocked it out of the park.

Interestingly, the state of mind and emotional control that most graduate students cultivate is very closely related to their desire for "success." The number of operational steps required becomes a part of the competition. In my own experience with grad students, competitiveness is a force to be reckoned with. It can become all-consuming.

Viewed this way, it's hard for me not to think about "Who was he trying to one-up? Who was he trying to impress? Which group of people were supposed to be most hurt by his actions? (In his mind)."

More and more I'm thinking that he had one of those low cost seat covers (maybe for all his seats). I did too! Both in grad school but also in my early childrearing years. Because...university life AND toddlers are both unkind to car upholstery.

I would actually take my waterproof seat covers off to reveal near-pristine upholstery when I went home to Mom and Dad, who were worrying that I wouldn't preserve the car's resale value. Almost everyone I knew had these seat covers (often to cover up previous stains and defects). Very useful. And I had aftermarket mats in the front area (still do). Easy peasy to change. Most can be purchased for cash at any local car parts store. There are "pet blankets" that can be thrown in the back seat and then tossed later.

I even wonder if he invested in a handheld vacuum (similar to a forensic vacuum), as so many people do.

SO many ways to game this part of the crime, and I can see a criminology grad student getting into it as a thought experiment first - but of course, now using more and more knowledge from what they are learning from real crime cases. Just as many of us do, here on WS.

I'd love to know if BK paid his rent for December at Steptoe, or if he was experiencing a bit of a tight budget right about then..

IMO.

 

[schooling]

Work has been crazy so doing a drive by reading (great stuff!) and post of thoughts.

1. Instagram account likely a dud. Simply for the reason he had more followers than those he was following in that screenshot. And the family claims they took the screenshot before BK was widely known. Is it possible he had that many followers with only 1 post and an extremely awkward photo? Yes. Naturally by some miracle, or unwittingly being targetted and accepting bots, or by buying followers.

Is it likely, No. Especially by that ratio. Factor in BK being socially awkward (by most accounts) and the answer goes from no to impossible.

2. cars have vins in multiple locations. stamped into the frame. which makes it almost impossible to just swap it out. yes, if you're really motivated you can replace/fake a vin. but we are talking large car theft rings and Lamborghinis, Ferraris and G63 AMGs.

3. there's evidence to back up the idea that BK was stalking the house. if he was stalking the house he was preparing. if he was preparing then it's easy to believe he'd spend time on making sure evidence did not transfer to his car and follow him home.

4. I'm of the opinion that the shower curtain was tossed AFTER the crime was committed. I believe that BK left a empty bag, and layers of clothing outside of the house (somewhere around the deck) . Once he was done committing the murders he zipped down his overalls/jumpers to reveal at least some articles of clothing. Put the overalls into a bag along with the gloves, shoes and socks. And layered up with whatever he brought with him.

I think once he got home to shower he was worried that he unknowingly transferred something on to his body that ended up on the curtain. So he tossed the shower curtain just in case.

5. "No Connection" could simply mean that the defense asked BK if certain accounts (tied to him by prosecutors using IP etc) were his and he responded 'No'. That makes the 'no connection' statement true.

MOO

 

[al66pine]

A Possible BK Stop That Night?

.... seen on video at Albertson's (and IIRC, his car is seen by a coffee kiosk employee across the street from Albertson's - which is right next to a campground and the Snake River - so there are showers there and it's a fairly large campground,...
The "somewhere else," though, could be the campground. Did he go there in the middle of the night? .... And it can be accessed easily, IMO, from the parking lot across the street from Albertson's.
....The campground I'm referencing is called Premier RV Resort, but has tent camping and showers, etc.
Here's a pic of the footpath that connects the RV resort to the area behind the coffee kiosk. The Snake is wide and slow in that area, which is why there's a town there....

snipped for focus @10ofRods
Good catch about BK possibly stopping at Premier RV Resort, to shower and/or to dispose of same/all of his crime kit.

A drone-level pic* of the RV park offering lovely views of Snake River, shows it is virtually in Costco's backyard.

IME of full time RV living & traveling for several post-retirement years, most private RV parks require users to key in DIGITAL CODE to enter shower facilities & restrooms. Of course, some codes are Oh So Mysterious, like 1-2-3-4 or park's street number address. Again, ime.

IDK, but yep, BK may have stopped there.
________________________
* from yelp review, pic 12 of 23.

Premier RV Resort photos

A photo at Premier RV Resort

www.yelp.com

(For unknown reason, I could not open your footpath pic.)

 

[arielilane]

Despite recent reports, I'm told Bryan Kohberger is getting no special treatment in jail. He has access to an older computer, but it has no internet. Kohberger receives docs about his case on a thumb drive. He can review and respond, save to thumb drive, and give to lawyer.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1703956651181568285

2/3 Other inmates have the same computer access. Again- no internet - just thumb drive with legal docs. As for vegan meals -I'm told it is only rice and beans. In terms of him wearing suits to court - that was allowed by judge. Lori Vallow and Murdaugh also did this pre trial.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1703956652163039529

3/3 I'm told the only "special" thing about Kohberger in the Latah County jail is he remains in isolation from other prisoners for "his safety and the safety of others." I'll be on @NewsNation in a few minutes.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1703956653245137127

 

[Cindizzi]

Despite recent reports, I'm told Bryan Kohberger is getting no special treatment in jail. He has access to an older computer, but it has no internet. Kohberger receives docs about his case on a thumb drive. He can review and respond, save to thumb drive, and give to lawyer.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1703956651181568285

2/3 Other inmates have the same computer access. Again- no internet - just thumb drive with legal docs. As for vegan meals -I'm told it is only rice and beans. In terms of him wearing suits to court - that was allowed by judge. Lori Vallow and Murdaugh also did this pre trial.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1703956652163039529

3/3 I'm told the only "special" thing about Kohberger in the Latah County jail is he remains in isolation from other prisoners for "his safety and the safety of others." I'll be on @NewsNation in a few minutes.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1703956653245137127

https://x.com/brianentin/status/1703959351566705046?s=61&t=Vp-AZ81ShrhzLNqqCFHAgA

 

[maskedwoman]

Do we know for sure that he went home after the murders and not to, say, a hotel or somewhere else?

That's an interesting question. Arranging a "bolt hole" would have given him a place to change and get rid of bloody evidence. We don't have any information that his round-about drive home included any stops but that could easily have been among the many things excluded from the the PCA. I doubt he impulsively showed up at a hotel/motel front desk after the murder, but he could certainly have checked in earlier that night.

 

[Helechawagirl]

That's an interesting question. Arranging a "bolt hole" would have given him a place to change and get rid of bloody evidence. We don't have any information that his round-about drive home included any stops but that could easily have been among the many things excluded from the the PCA. I doubt he impulsively showed up at a hotel/motel front desk after the murder, but he could certainly have checked in earlier that night.

Somehow I can’t help thinking there’s a big hole here somewhere between bloody crime scene and pristine car and apartment. Maybe even a storage shed, but all that would leave a paper trail. With the length of time between the murders and the arrest, there’s no telling where the tools ended up. He could have even thrown them in a dumpster and it would have been picked up and buried. Since he was using other people’s trash at home, he might have done a similar thing in Idaho, but not near his apartment. If they have the route he took home and can identify dumpsters he would have passed, might be worth a look but the task would be staggering. Don’t know if dogs could help much. It’s a long shot but I’m curious about the whereabouts of the knife, clothes etc.

 

[Ray_of_hope]

I seriously doubt the Goncalves family got any information because that is what they have been complaining about though this whole process. Their lawyer said the Goncalves have received the least communication from police that he has ever seen to the family of a crime victim in his entire career in regards to this case. This was at the hearing in regards to the gag order and who it pertained to in case you want to hear what the Goncalves attorney said for yourself.

The Goncalves sister did her own sleuthing and took screenshots herself and gave them to LE per the 48 Hours episode, once she discovered Bk's name. As far as LE telling the family before the public knew about the arrest of BK, that is speculation. Often that is done but not always.

 

[arielilane]

LATAH COUNTY, Idaho (Court TV) — Bryan Kohberger, accused of killing four University of Idaho students, is expected back in court on Friday for two separate hearings aiming to dismiss the indictments against him.

The motion is scheduled to be heard at 1 p.m. on Friday, which will be a busy day in the Latah County courtroom for Kohberger, the attorneys and Judge John Judge. While cameras are scheduled to be allowed into the courtroom for the afternoon hearing, a separate hearing on a different motion to dismiss the indictment will be closed when it is held that morning.

At 10:30 a.m., attorneys are scheduled to discuss a second motion to dismiss filed by Kohberger in August. That motion alleges grand jury bias, inadmissible evidence, insufficient evidence and prosecutorial misconduct as reasons why the indictment should be dismissed. The motion, as well as the motion in opposition filed by the state, has been sealed and is not available for Court TV to review.

Bryan Kohberger hearing to dismiss indictment postponed by illness

Bryan Kohberger will appear at two separate hearings where he is arguing for his indictments on murder and burglary to be dismissed.

www.courttv.com

Posted at 2:22 PM, September 19, 2023

 

[arielilane]

It would be gold if LE found the knife. The crime scenes had to have been a bloody mess. I can’t imagine he cleaned up his escape vehicle thoroughly while still out west. Monster killers like him make mistakes… and wasn’t he still cleaning his vehicle in Dec 2022 in PA? Matter of opinion, speculation.

 

[10ofRods]

A Possible BK Stop That Night?

snipped for focus @10ofRods
Good catch about BK possibly stopping at Premier RV Resort, to shower and/or to dispose of same/all of his crime kit.

A drone-level pic* of the RV park offering lovely views of Snake River, shows it is virtually in Costco's backyard.

IME of full time RV living & traveling for several post-retirement years, most private RV parks require users to key in DIGITAL CODE to enter shower facilities & restrooms. Of course, some codes are Oh So Mysterious, like 1-2-3-4 or park's street number address. Again, ime.

IDK, but yep, BK may have stopped there.
________________________
* from yelp review, pic 12 of 23.

Premier RV Resort photos

A photo at Premier RV Resort

www.yelp.com

(For unknown reason, I could not open your footpath pic.)

What great insights. It's possible he stopped by earlier and was a paying customer. Who knows? I've been to lots of campgrounds in Idaho, WY, MT, NV - and never a keypad. We need a sleuth to go take a look at this one! (Or maybe I can email).

Very wonderful to hear that more places are using digital codes. This is exactly the kind of safety measure that everyone should be considering. We can't predict bad actors, but we sure can use every tech to guard against them.

 

[Boxer]

A criminology student is going to be aware of all the transfer points and take precautions.

Also saying that there no DNA in the car of a criminology student suspected of murder is a lot like saying its surprising that a student of dentistry doesn't have plaque.

 

[kittythehare]

There is no evidence of cleaning otherwise the defense wouldn't have said that there is no explanation for the total lack of DNA. This is from their motion:

No matter what came first, the car or the genetic genealogy, the investigation has provided precious little.There is no connection between Mr. Kohberger and the victims.There is no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the victimsin Mr.Kohberger’s apartment, office home, or vehicle.

This means they did not detect cleaning chemicals in his car that would have used to get rid of DNA. I think it also means that they didn't find any kind of protective clothing and other gears/tools in his possession/which he bought
that would have helped him not to transfer DNA onto his car.


There were many detailed, lenghty posts here on Websleuths for example from 10ofrods explaining that it would be impossible to not to find DNA evidence in his car no matter how hard he cleaned or what kind of protection he used. Many experts also had this same opinion, they were all expecting a treasure trove of evidence in his car.

Whaaaa?

The man accused of murdering four University of Idaho students in November had thoroughly cleaned the interior and exterior of his car and was also seen wearing surgical gloves multiple times before being apprehended, a law enforcement source tells CNN.

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger cleaned car, was seen wearing surgical gloves, source says

In one instance prior to Kohberger's arrest, authorities observed him leaving his family home around 4 a.m. and putting trash bags in the neighbors' garbage bins, according to the source.

abc7chicago.com

This is from January 6th. We have always known about this!

'By that point, police said Mr Kohberger had already been spotted cleaning his car out with bleach and so the family members didn’t find anything of note, the source said.'

Bryan Kohberger’s sister feared he was involved in Idaho murders

Sources told NBC’s Dateline that the accused killer’s family searched his white Hyundai Elantra for possible evidence of the Idaho college murders

www.independent.co.uk

The accused had a considerable amount of time to fully sanitise every single nut and bolt of his vehicle and his home.

The details, shared with the outlet by a law enforcement source, add to a mounting pile of evidence revealed in a probable cause affidavit released Thursday, including DNA on a knife sheath found at the crime scene.
The source also told CNN that the 28-year-old cleaned the inside and outside of his white Hyundai Elantra — “not missing an inch” — while it was parked at his family home in Pennsylvania.

Idaho Murder Suspect Meticulously Cleaned Car, Wore Surgical Gloves Before Arrest: Report

Bryan Kohberger also threw trash away in his neighbors' bins at 4 a.m., according to a CNN source.

www.huffpost.com

Bryan Kohberger meticulously cleaned his car before arrest: report

The quadruple murder suspect “cleaned his car, inside and outside, not missing an inch,” a source said.

nypost.com

We only have the PCA, btw.
It's quite a generous PCA but it is not the entire case.
Here is a link to the PCA in case you missed it?

Bryan Kohberger Probable Cause Affidavit

There is little information regarding motive in the court filings, and the details of the actual crime have been redacted from the filing, but it is alleged that Kohberger may have been stalking his victims for months before their deaths.

www.insideedition.com